"pure blood" and "who they are" doesn't really matter. Zechariah 12 is what matters Different topic Indeed, it's all opinion; but Romans 11 pertaining to JWs is something I would wholeheartedly disagree with. Read Romans 10 - 11 closely brother, there is no need to make layer upon layer of assumptions!
Unless who is a Jew is no longer physical after Cornelius. I believe the house of David and Jerusalem will be a metaphor in the time of the end of all believers, and the physical Jew and physical Jerusalem has nothing to do with it... The Jerusalem that is rebuilt during a literal 70 weeks in the time of the end, will be a spiritual one, in my summation.
I love timelines regarding these encoded future-viewing books, and you know them far better than I do, but Romans 10 - 11 is really an exposition about how Jehovah will use Israel rejecting the messiah to bring the nations into the fold, and then deliver Israel. How/Where/Who and any other specific questions are basically a different topic, perhaps related to Daniel 9 and perhaps not. Paul says regarding "natural Israel": "So I ask, They did not stumble and fall completely, did they? Certainly not! But by their false step, there is salvation to people of the nations, to incite them to jealousy. Now if their false step means riches to the world and their decrease means riches to people of the nations, how much more will their full number mean!" Romans 11 Paul is encoding prophecy here, but not like Daniel. "For I do not want you to be unaware of this sacred secret" Romans 11 "A partial dulling of senses has come upon Israel until the full number of people of the nations has come in, and in this manner all Israel will be saved." Romans 11 No amount of crunching and clanging can push what Paul is saying into a timeline of JWs during the end!
A physical Jew could have been grafted back in any time they accepted our Lord, but is there a mass Jewish graft in when our Lord is revealed? I don't read that... I think what we have is a difference of literal vs metaphor between us. Did the Jew who reject Christ in 70ce stumble and fall completely? Yes.... Then why does Paul say they didn't?
To my understanding, trying to imply that physical Jews still have Gods favor although they reject the Christ is everything against what scripture says. Pauls says so himself; Rom 11:1 "I ask, then, God did not reject his people, did he? By no means! For I too am an Israelite, of the offspring of Abraham, from the tribe of Benjamin. God did not reject his people, whom he first recognized." This very first scripture of Rom 11 isn't saying that God hasn't rejected "all" of his people, but simply those who believe in Christ like himself. Paul is saying God has not rejected his people that have believed on his son. So that means those physical Jews who do not accept like Paul will be rejected. Paul goes on to say that God has selected a remnant, 7000. No doubt 7000 from each tribe, in that of the 144k, and these are from all nations, unlike some who believe these are only physical Jews. A deep sleep and dulling in no way is talking about rejecting the Christ, because if you do not except the Christs resurrection you have no hope, and in no way will proof be given, and as for a mass Jewish revival, that's preposterous, and I don't see any support of that in the text, quite the contrary, a million Jews died in 70CE. Sure, physical Jews at the time of Paul could have been grafted back in if they accepted Christ as he had, just like the gentiles could be grafted in, all equal and part of one Israel of God. All Israel that will be saved will be believers, and I don't see Paul speaking of any physical location or people. Rom 11:26 "and in this manner all Israel will be saved."
I'm not so sure - there is metaphor in Romans 10 - 11, but the primary topic is the Israel which rejected the messiah. Paul starts the discussion in Romans 10 with this statement: "I bear them witness that they (Jews) have a zeal for God, but not according to accurate knowledge. For because of not knowing the righteousness of God but seeking to establish their own, they did not subject themselves to the righteousness of God. For Christ is the end of the Law, so that everyone exercising faith may have righteousness." -------- Paul's wraps up the question of "natural Israel" in Romans 11: "For just as you (gentiles) were once disobedient to God but have now been shown mercy because of their (Israel's) disobedience, so also these now have been disobedient with mercy resulting to you (gentile), so that they (Israel) themselves may also now be shown mercy. For God has confined all of them (Israel) together in disobedience so that he might show all of them mercy. O the depth of God’s riches and wisdom and knowledge! How unsearchable his judgments are and beyond tracing out his ways are!" Romans 11 Jehovah is making a big circle, starting with Israel, and ending at Israel. - the two witnesses are in physical Jerusalem, which is called "sodom and egypt" where their "Lord was crucified" - what are they witnessing about? and to who? it wont' be about denominations I'll tell you that! - Isn't it interesting that a nation called Israel exists in the Middle East at the center of geopolitics since 1948? Coincidence? - Zechariah 12 explicitly states that they recognize the "one who they pierced" at a time when the nations surround Jerusalem [now if you want some timeline speculation, this would when BTG/Israel is turned on by the nations] "come out of her my people" is the conversion moment from hearing the two witnesses. 1/4 of the tribes are named in Zechariah 12
Read my last post. You're mixing topics again This isn't a discussion of "who has God's favor", "who is saved" or even identifying groups of people..., but prophecy, and Babylon the Great.
Is it a coincidence that a star directed three wise men to Herod before moving ahead to where Jesus was born? Is it Biblical fulfillment when Babylon was rebuilt in 1982 by Saddam Hussein after 2520 years, or 7 times from the year it fell? You see, I don't believe the nation of Israel today in the Middle East has anything to do with prophecy, or Gods plans, at all... I don't read that at all, Israel according to even the chapters you quoted includes Gentile and Jew, and once Cornelius was baptized, that ended the 70th week, and the covenant was opened up to all mankind, fulfilling Peters vision of the sheet. I believe the two witnesses will be in America when they die, that appears to be the Egypt of today... In my opinion... Our Lord was not sacrificed in Sodom nor Egypt, so attempting to pin down physical Israel as the place the two witnesses are killed is a fruitless endeavor, IMO. Those who pierced him physically are no longer alive, they lived 2000 years ago... Besides, one could argue it was the Roman soldier that pierced him, not a Jew. So if you want to make the piercing a metaphor, how are you going to make "they" literal? That doesn't seem to be scriptural continuity to me. Every nation already hates Israel, just listen to any speech at the UN by Netanyahu. Only America stands with them, and if it wasn't for the US, every nation around them would have destroyed them long ago. Israel doesn't rule over anything, nullifying it from being BTG (besides many other things). I believe the call to "come out of her" will be after the constant feature is removed, and Gods people go into spiritual captivity to Babylon (not Israel), and a call to rebuild will come 70 weeks before the end of the 1260 days. The two witnesses could not be Jewish, by all reasoning it's obvious they are standing next to the Lord (as a vision) at the transfiguration, and represented by the two olive trees, these obviously are Christians. What do you think Paul is talking about when he says "their disobedience"? Surely you don't think he means their piercing the Lord? I'm getting the feeling that's what your saying. Disobedience isn't rejecting the Christ and killing him, that brought death by the millions, and a complete rejecting of the Jewish people. Their disobedience is not knowing they are saved by faith, not works according to Paul. Yes, I say God rejected the genetic Jewish people and they no longer have any hope other then individually to recognize Christ's resurrection. That is what Rom 11 is about, individuals. The covenant God made with Abraham was fulfilled to the Jewish people from 29ce-36ce, and after that given to the Gentile. Yes an individual Jew could be grafted back in, but only if they were like Paul and excepted the Christ. "All Israel" is all mankind that worships God through Christ. Brother, Paul himself tells you who "they" are. Rom 10:12-14 "For there is no distinction between Jew and Greek. There is the same Lord over all, who is rich toward all those calling on him. For “everyone who calls on the name of Jehovah will be saved.” However, how will they call on him if they have not put faith in him?" "They" are simply those who have have not understood they are saved by faith in Christ, not works, and what is the result of that? They will not be saved, it says that very clearly in the chapters you quote brother. He says "they" are those that believed that there must be some physical work involved to retrieve the Messiah. As well, Paul makes it very clear, "there is no distinction between Jew and Greek." Since the Jews of his time did not have accurate knowledge of being saved by faith, Paul is saying they will not be saved, he makes it very clear what is the result of their actions. Paul says they can be grafted back in, but not without understanding they are saved by faith, the faith of Christ, but this is on an individual basis, no where do I read a mass group of genetic Jews converting to Christianity, and besides that there is no such thing as a genetic Jew today. The prospect of even going down that road of discussion is repulsive, we saw that in Nazi Germany... No, God fulfilled his covenant to Abraham during the 70th week from 29-36ce, and then once Cornelius was baptized that fulfilled Peters vision of the sheet, when Israel/Jew/Jerusalem became Jew and Gentile in the whole world, and the the physical city and physical people were destroyed in 70ce never to be part of Gods plans again... In my summation of course...
But then you're ignoring a primary attribute: "Their bodies will lie in the public square of the great city--which is figuratively called Sodom and Egypt--where also their Lord was crucified." I'm not sure how to rebut this Sodom and Egypt is SPIRITUAL and the "physical" location is Israel, "where their lord was crucified". How do you interpret "where their lord was crucified" as happening in the US?
"hate" and "being turned on by them" are two different ideas. The current "hate" is the predicate which will cause the rejection though, indeed. A resurgence of that Nazi mentality, as you pointed out, which blames "the Jews" for the worlds ills. Sure, of course, but a different topic. Prophetic event != basic Biblical concept Whether they are Jewish or not is besides the point, they are killed in Jerusalem That isn't the point Paul was making The gentiles are covered explicitly by Paul immediately before this point. He then re-addresses the topic of "natural Israel". "they will look to the one whom they pierced, and they will wail over him as they would wail over an only son; and they will grieve bitterly over him as they would grieve over a firstborn son. In that day the wailing in Jerusalem will be great, like the wailing at Ha·dad·rimʹmon in the Plain of Me·gidʹdo" There is no reason to speculate; the scriptures show, along with Romans 11, that Jehovah will turn his attention to the Jews during the time of the end. THEY (the Jews) are "confined to disobedience" so that God can show them mercy. Zechariah 12 is the event, Romans 10 - 11 is the concept. "who" "when" "how" "genetics" etc etc are all pointless speculations. "Jerusalem has sinned greatly. That is why she has become something abhorrent. All who used to honor her now treat her as something contemptible, for they have seen her nakedness." - Lamentations 1:8 "she" IS a widow, since rejecting and killing her bride. At some future point, there will be a call to "get out of" spiritual Sodom and Egypt, where Jesus was executed. Egypt = the place of captivity, "come out of her" Sodom = moral debasement, "by her spiritistic practices"
Okay, let's look at it this way, if we want to be explicitly accurate, our Lord was crucified in Rome, Jerusalem at that time was a Roman jurisdiction. Jerusalem is never called the great city, but simply the city of the great King. Rev 21:10 "And he carried me away in the Spirit to a mountain great and high, and showed me the Holy City, Jerusalem, coming down out of heaven from God." Rev 16:19 "The great city split into three parts, and the cities of the nations collapsed. God remembered Babylon the Great and gave her the cup filled with the wine of the fury of his wrath." You can't interpret Sodom and Egypt as metaphors, and then in the same sentence describe "where also their Lord was crucified" as literal. The text is saying our Lord was crucified in Sodom and Egypt, and does not say Jerusalem, nor can "the great city" be pinned to Jerusalem, "the great city" is split apart before Babylon is remembered by Jehovah according to Rev 16:19, therefore two separate entities. The description of BTG is she sits on top of the beast with nations and peoples, ruling over them, and this certainly doesn't describe Israel. Besides, read Jeremiah 49-52, Ezekiel etc... Jehovah uses Babylon to come against Jerusalem, and then Jehovah brings down Babylon for it's haughtiness, no where in history has Babylon ever been Jerusalem, and this idea of prophecy speaking of a fake and real Jerusalem is an attempt to force a square peg into a round hole, and has no Biblical foundation. In my opinion... Again, technically they are killed in Rome... Let's break this down a little further; Rom 11:25 "For I do not want you to be unaware of this sacred secret, brothers, so that you do not become wise in your own eyes:" The sacred secret is fulfilled when all of Christs brothers are gathered to him, and the means by which Gods kingdom comes to mankind at the last trumpet. Rom 11:25b "A partial dulling of senses has come upon Israel until the full number of people of the nations has come in," The dulling can be described as the hazy mirror, seeing hazy, or patially until the fulfillment when we will see clearly. (If I need to quote those scriptures let me know) Paul made it very clear throughout these chapters in Romans that all of Israel was Jew and Greek, and explicitly describes all Israel as including the nations. Rom 10:12 "For there is no distinction between Jew and Greek. There is the same Lord over all, who is rich toward all those calling on him." Rom 10:13 "For “everyone who calls on the name of Jehovah will be saved.” Rom 11:25,26 "A partial dulling of senses has come upon Israel until the full number of people of the nations has come in, and in this manner all Israel will be saved." Paul includes all the nations in Israel right there in Rom 11:25,26. He says that "until the full number of the nations comes in" then "all" Israel will be saved, which includes the nations. A partial dulling of senses is seeing in a hazy mirror and not completely understanding prophecy, it most certainly is not rejecting the Christ...
It does though! Hence all of the conspiracies about a "Jewish world order". Hitler wasn't some standalone event in history. The Plantagenets, Tudors, and French / Italian equivalent families ALL ejected the Jews out of their countries at various times. The French Revolution was in part an ejection of the Jewish population. This story plays out every 100 years; I would call it one of the primary sub-texts of European history. Karl Marx wrote an essay "On The Jewish Question", read it, you'll discover the argument for "why" the nations need to throw "her" off their backs. But still .. in Israel, right outside of Jerusalem. "Truly I tell you, it will be more bearable for Sodom and Gomorrah on the day of judgment than for that town." Matthew 10:15 It's all in there brother, the entire encoding system linking Jerusalem to BTG to "Sodom and Egypt". No external history or text required! "And so upon you will come all the righteous blood that has been shed on earth," Matthew 23:35
Jesus was talking about the temple and Jerusalem of his day, and indeed that city was destroyed in 70ce, simply for the fact Jesus mentioned, all righteous blood up until that point, up until 70ce. The Nazis also had a meeting to answer the "Jewish question." (The Wannsee Conference) Besides, the debate we are having is whether Paul is speaking of only the genetic Jew who is singled out as being saved in Rom 10-11, and I believe I've showed that he says "until the full nations are gathered in" then all Israel is saved, which includes those of the nations, nullifying any mass conversion by any race. Conspiracies abound brother, but to me the KOTN and KOTS battle seems clear, Republic against Oligarchy that has repeated itself over the entire history of mankind, and the Jewish nation was never been part of that battle, but stuck in between. Mathew is talking about anyone who doesn't listen, any city that doesn't except the Christ, not any city specifically. Mth 10:14 "Wherever anyone does not receive you or listen to your words, on going out of that house or that city, shake the dust off your feet." The city was destroyed in 70ce, and all righteous blood up until that time came down on that city and the people within... BTG is responsible for the blood of the "holy ones", the two witnesses and those with them at the time of the end, and since the destruction of the temple in 70ce. Obviously in 70ce that city was destroyed for all righteous blood shed up until that point.
There are two "groups" addressed in Romans 10 - 11, and three primary subjects: - Natural Israel - Gentiles - Spiritual Israel "spiritual Israel" are ALL PEOPLE who are saved through Jesus sacrificial death. So let's just drop that entire discussion, as it doesn't pertain to the subject matter. Paul is saying that Natural Israel will be saved at a specific point. Why? "True, with respect to the good news, they are enemies for your sakes; but with respect to God’s choosing, they are beloved for the sake of their forefathers." - Romans 11:28 When? "A partial dulling of senses has come upon Israel until the full number of people of the nations has come in" - Romans 11:25b We're still in the time when people of the nations are coming in; so this "event" when some component (1/4 IMO, see Zech 12) of Natural Israel recognizes the "one they pierced" is a future event. For the "sake of their forefathers" Jehovah sends the two witnesses to Jerusalem, where they are executed. Jerusalem really is the central "city" on earth, before and after Christ, it's fitting that this "great city" which contains a corrupted form of hyper-anti-Christian Judaism is also the central political and religious capital during the conclusion period! I would argue they presided over this struggle; see the Plantagenets/Tudors response to Jews and the rise of the Venetian banking system. The Jewish people are central to the development of the European system. I'm an obsessive compulsive history buff ... if you want a detailed post about why this is true, I would be happy to oblige! Not true! "Do not go among the Gentiles or enter any town of the Samaritans. Go rather to the lost sheep of Israel" - Matthew 10:5b-6
Sure, and as we see Jerusalem was destroyed. The nation of Israel no longer existed after 70ce for their lack of faith... So yes, Jerusalem and all surrounging cities were destroyed for their lack of faith, any city. If your trying to connect "Sodom and Gomorrah" with the cities surrounding Jerusalem, and then connecting that to the place our Lord was killed, then to the two witnesses, I might add something. This prophecy was fulfilled in the first centuries destruction of Israel. Now if there is a future fulfillment, you should understand that I do not believe the physical location of Israel set up in 1948 has anything to do with prophecy. As well "it would be better for" doesn't mean "it is" Sodom and Gomorrah. We're just to far apart on this one, and that's okay... I will ask you this though, since this is what will prove if we are right or not. I need to know your timeline, so I know what to look forward to as to your understanding. You don't need to show me when something is to happen, but please offer an order. What is the very next thing you expect to see in history, then the next, and so on... Either the events occur in that order, or if they don't then the understanding is wrong. The thing I am concerned about is when the end does begin, we have a million interpretations as to the meaning of the events... I believe this is the reason for the two witnesses, in order to speak for God, so there's only one right answer... They are chosen and beloved because the covenant was presented to them first, in order to take hold of the faith, that faith of Christ Jesus. Because of their genealogy they had the first opportunity to become the bride of Christ, but in no way is that saying just because they are physically Jew they are destined to be saved, they MUST believe in Christ, and do so on an individual basis. Think about it brother, just the logistics make it impossible. "All Israel" would have to include every single last physical Jew, so everyone would be saved, but only if they believe in Christ at some point, right? So then you have to walk your statement back down to meet mine... You can't have all Israel, not all will believe. It seems to me your trying to imply that all Israelite's will be saved, when Romans is very clear, the Israelite's were beloved by birth and given first opportunity, but they rejected Christ, and the dust was wiped off of Jehovah's feet in 70ce. Individually Jews could still be grafted back on, but I don't read a mass reversal, that's impossible for so many reasons... Instead it's clear, Israel includes all the nations as well in Rom 11. You have a glaring problem with your understanding here brother, Jerusalem was destroyed 2000 years ago, and unless you can show 1948 was some rebirth of that nation that had direct prophetical fulfillment of Jehovah's will, then you might as well say that Babylon in Iraq is the true BTG because it was rebuilt by Sodom Hussein in 1982, 2520 years or 7 times after 539 BCE. Is that the fulfillment of Dan 4? Of course not, some men decided to make it so, and American Evangelicals have expected the physical temple to be rebuilt before the second coming, so they made sure there was a new Israel. As far as I can see, Israel today is man made...
A curiosity concerning the reconstruction of Babylon by Hussein and the role to play in the future by this city: http://www.thepropheticyears.com/reasons/babylon.htm
Hi Joshuastone7 Please do your homework, when you make a statement like the above. Jerusalem is called the great city in Jeremiah. It's quoted in the essay that is the source of this thread. Jere 22:8 – And many nations will actually pass along by this city and say one to the other: “On what account did Jehovah do like this to this great city?” Londoner
That statement is to be a name for Jerusalem? I think not... "this great city" was used as an adjective, not a noun... It also says "this" not "the"... Come on...
Hi Joshuastone7 Are you winding me up? Revelation uses the "great city" to address BTG as both a noun and an adjective. It is irrelevant whether the definite article "the" is used or not: Rev 18:9-10 ; - “And the kings of the earth who committed fornication with her and lived in shameless luxury will weep and beat themselves in grief over her, when they look at the smoke from the burning of her, 10 while they stand at a distance because of their fear of her torment and say, ‘Too bad, too bad, you great city, Babylon you strong city, because in one hour your judgment has arrived!’ Londoner