Please copy and paste where I said these things... Now there's a good question. So how do you approach the subject then? On one hand you have Rev 9 saying that those under the alter were raised to life in heaven then told to wait until their brothers were killed. My point was, then this must be able to be understood in the other scriptures then, if that is so. So the question I asked myself at that point was, "In any other scriptures talking about those raised can it be read in a way that some aren't raised right away", and the answer to that is yes. "in a moment, in the blink of an eye, during the last trumpet. For the trumpet will sound, and the dead will be raised up incorruptible, and we will be changed." Why in that scripture does it separate the dead from those alive? Why does it say the dead will be raised up incorruptible, but the living will be changed? Why does it state them differently? Do you know? 1Th 4:16; "and those who are dead in union with Christ will rise first" First? They rise first before who? It tells you in the next verse. "Afterward we the living who are surviving will, together with them, be caught away in clouds to meet the Lord in the air; and thus we will always be with the Lord." It's the living that are raised "Afterward" with them in the clouds. John, these scriptures only confirm what is written in Rev 9.
1Th 4:15; "For this is what we tell you by Jehovah’s word, that we the living who survive to the presence of the Lord will in no way precede those who have fallen asleep in death."
Dear BTJ, Please read and compare : Isa 61:1-2 NIV "The Spirit of the Sovereign Lord is on me, because the Lord has anointed me to preach good news to the poor. He has sent me to bind up the broken-hearted, to proclaim freedom for the captives and release from darkness for the prisoners, to proclaim the year of the Lord's favour and the day of vengeance of our God, to comfort all who mourn,"
I think that there is a confusion here by the use of the verb "to raise/rise" both meaning resurrected and lifted to heaven. Let me rephrase : No, when Jesus is enthroned and the dead who are to be raised to heaven are raised => the dead who are lifted to heaven are resurrected (...) and not yet lifted. They won't be lifted to heaven right away. The anointed ones who are dead before that point won't be resurrected in heaven, maybe something similar to what happened to Jesus when he stayed on earth for a while before being lifted to heaven after his resurrection, they will be lifted to heaven alongside with the other ones when Jesus comes in the clouds and calls them (Acts1:11). They will surely be waiting for him. Luke 21:27-28 NIV "At that time they will see the Son of Man coming in a cloud with power and great glory. When these things begin to take place, stand up and lift up your heads, because your redemption is drawing near." As for the rest, this can also be explained this way. Technically speaking, some of the anointed ones won't experience the first death either => "For in this dwelling house we do indeed groan, earnestly desiring to put on the one for us from heaven, so that, having really put it on, we shall not be found naked." - 2 Cor. 5:2-3. According to many Bible scholars, the term "naked" here means without any body, that is, sleeping in death. I mean, they won't sleep in death at all as they will be changed instantly and be given another tent "right away" => "In fact, we who are in this tent groan, being weighed down; because we want, not to put it off, but to put on the other, that what is mortal may be swallowed up by life. Now he that produced us for this very thing is God, who gave us the token of what is to come, that is, the spirit." - 2 Cor. 5:4-5 The anointed ones must die but not all will sleep in death.
Adam and Eve were perfect, had direct access to God and lived in a favourable environment. Yet, Satan deceived Eve but Adam wasn't deceived, which means that his motives for sinning were different. There are as many motives and pretexts for sinning as there are imperfect* people on earth. Satan is very cunning and he won't miss out on his last chance to draw people after him "into the lake of burning sulphur". Even at the end of the thousand year reign, despite all the favourable circumstances, imperfection will still be there and you can trust Satan to find tenable arguments so millions, even billions of people start complaining and even rebelling against God to the point of threatening "the camp of God's people, the city he loves." What I said below was obviously ironic : Yeah, faith in what happened 1 000 years ago and that has been passed on by ancestors during such a long time will certainly be a surefire safeguard against Satan's ultimate snares... History and experience show that they will need that, as you phrased it. Furthermore, the ones born at year 900 will keep sinning. Perfection will be a reality after the final test and even perfect, people can sin... The only difference is that when you are imperfect, you can't help it, you dont' have the choice, you undergo Sin. Adam had the choice. * and perfect in the future
Hey John, What do you mean by : They state that when Jesus sends forth his angels to gather his chosen ones that this will happen when the last trumpet sounds and that the dead will rise at that time and the living will be changed at the same time as the dead being raised. ? Here, rise = resurrect, raise up
That was a test to check if we were following you... ? Please, can you then rephrase your reasoning with the "day of the Lord", instead of the GT... as both events won't take place at the same moment.
"And you must say to Phar′aoh, ‘This is what Jehovah has said: “Israel is my son, my firstborn." - Ex. 4:22 God's people is Israel, God's firstborn, which means Jesus and his brothers, Christ's body, who will make up the new creation. Although I think (but don't believe it, I'm sure you understand the difference) that there are plenty of prospective brothers of Christ outside of the JWs' "fold", the latter ones are the only ones who teach about anointed ones. I believe that they have come to a deeper understanding of that which God's kingdom is made up. The anointed ones within the JWs are a key figure in God's purpose. The inspection, punishment and refining affect the anointed ones, God's people, His temple. The Northerner will come and destroy it. The anointed ones will mourn its destruction (Joel 1:16-18) and pray Jehovah for forgiveness so it is rebuilt. [video=youtube;2FgDles4xq8]http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=2FgDles4xq8[/video]
I'm sorry to insist but there is something that doesn't add up in your explanations. In all the prophecies, the city and the temple are destroyed by the Northerner, by Babylon, and they don't exist anymore thereafter until they are rebuilt. The town and the temple are destined to be rebuilt once Babylon falls only. Your explanations are impossible. The DT can't enter a place that doesn't exist anymore, that is the renegade temple (which you mention by making a connection between the DT, the temple in which the MOL sits down with what happened in 70CE). You say that the MOL and KON/DT are two different entities and yet, you make a connection between them both. The unfaithful anointed ones are destroyed by the Northerner's attack and what happened in 70CE has nothing to do with the set up of the DT if we make your explanations match other prophecies. The old and renegade temple doesn't outlive Jesus' coming, enthronement and call of his faithful anointed brothers when he comes in the clouds. The faithful anointed ones mourn its loss, which means that nothing exists anymore in that regard before Jesus comes and releases them from the babylonian yoke. They won't mourn over something that is soon to be occupied by the KON and bemired by the DT being set up in it, and all the more so when this takes place "after God's people have been brought back to him from captivity", as you phrased it. If we follow the connection that you make with 70CE and the setup of the DT, then the renegade Jerusalem is destroyed only when the DT is set up, 1290 days after the fall of the WT, even after Babylon/Rome has fallen, which entity is supposed to destroy both the city and the temple, after all. The only temple possible at that time, that is when the DT is supposed to enter it, is the next one, the true one, that is being rebuilt or that has just been rebuilt. Thus, any link with 70CE is ruled out because that date is when the former renegade temple is destroyed. The only explanation that would hold water is that either the disgusting thing has nothing to do with the temple or that the new and true temple is being attacked and occupied by the KON and defiled by the DT (which will never happen again, according to God's promise). But even in that case, many pieces of the prophetic puzzle would need to be replaced from your current and personal layout.
Look! I tell YOU a sacred secret: We shall not all fall asleep [in death], but we shall all be changed, [SUP]52[/SUP] in a moment, in the twinkling of an eye, at (see fn)the last trumpet. For the trumpet will sound, and the dead will be raised up incorruptible, and we shall be changed. we the living who survive to the being alongside* of the Lord shall in no way precede those who have fallen asleep [in death]; [SUP]16[/SUP] because the Lord himself will descend from heaven with a commanding call, with an archangel’s voice and with God’s trumpet, and those who are dead in union with Christ will rise first. [SUP]17[/SUP] Then** we the living who are surviving will, at the same time (see fn) with them, be caught away in clouds to meet the Lord in the air; and thus we shall always be with [the] Lord. Just to add a little detail to what I am thinking when I read the above. The dead will undergo a resurrection to the extent from being dead to coming alive again but in spirit form. Their resurrection is straight to the clouds where Jesus will then be. The living undergoes a resurrection to the extent that they are changed in an instant into a spirit form while they are still here on earth. When that change occurs they go straight to the clouds as well. All in the same spirit form, all together in the clouds with Jesus, all done at the same time. In regards to the dead, they are first to the extent that like a man that opens a door for his date allowing her to enter first but then he enters in right behind her. *The Greek word from which “presence†is translated is pa·rou·si´a , pa·rou·si´a means, literally, “being alongside, **See link on how many other translations use “then†instead of “afterâ€. It shows the word can be then, thereafter, after. But for arguments sake lets use “afterâ€. I am basing this because of it saying “at the same time with themâ€. Let’s think about those boarding a plane. Although all will be on the plane at the same time and take off at the same time, it is common to hear a call for those in rows one thru whatever to board first (the dead) then/after, those in the rest of the rows (the living). If a day with the Lord is a 1,000 years and we are told not to let that one fact go unnoticed, then it seems that the day of the Lord is the 1,000 years. Since the chosen are to rule with Jesus for 1,000 years, it seems that when the first day of the 1,000 starts then it will start for all at the same time. http://biblehub.com/1_thessalonians/4-17.htm While thinking more about: I was wondering how this fits in: Isn’t the hour of test the GT? In what way are those who will receive a crown, be kept from the hour of test if they also will go through the GT?
I think you are on to something here. It appears that those who are raised from death will experience what Jesus did, and I think it's quite likely it might be for 40 days, (more on that later). But the fact remains that some will still die after this. You spoke correctly when you said, " some of the anointed ones won't experience the first death either" because in fact some still will after they have been changed. Rev 6:10,11; “Until when, Sovereign Lord, holy and true,are you refraining from judging and avenging our blood on those who dwell on the earth?†And a white robe was given to each of them, and they were told to rest a little while longer, until the number was filled of their fellow slaves and their brothers who were about to be killed as they had been."
The beast at Rev 13 is comprised of not only Babylon, but also the king of the North. They are combined in that beast. And yes you are right, the "spiritual" Jerusalem will be rebuilt in the ashes of Babylon. Okay, follow me here brother. The prophecies were meant for both 70CE and our day. Okay, with that said, the temple in Jerusalem was considered by God to be the Holy Place. Otherwise it would not have been called that. With that said. What happened in 66CE is Judea went into exile. This will happen when the "Constant Feature" is removed in our day. That is when the society no longer exists. Now, no one is killed yet, no one dies. However, this is when the store houses are bare, the lands are sold off and the people are in exile. The entity that accomplishes this is the beast in Rev 13. It is comprised of the KON/Babylon/7th King. So at that moment these kingdoms collectively send Jehovah's people into exile. Remember, no one dies yet, and the Temple has not been entered by the Disgusting Thing. For now, the temple does not exist. Now 42 months later the spiritual Jerusalem is rebuilt once Jesus is enthroned and Holy Spirit is poured out. Its at that moment the beast that comprises the KON/Babylon/7th king turns on one of it's entities, Babylon, and destroys it. Now, with the true spiritual Jerusalem restored, and Babylon no longer in existence, the Disgusting Thing turns against the Anointed still on the earth that had "changed" and begins killing them. This is the parallel of 70CE. That is the moment when the "Holy Place" is entered. There is a moment that the temple exists, it's sold off and it's people are put into slavery/court yard trampled. Once the true Jerusalem is rebuilt when Jesus is enthroned it's then that the Disgusting Thing enters the Holy Place.
This post was a quotation from an old thread in which we were talking about the second death, and about the first one as a logical corollary, so when I mentioned the first death, I meant the Adamic death. Said otherwise, the anointed ones will die in the sense that their physical body will die because it cannot go to heaven but as the latter will instantly be replaced by the spiritual one, we can say that they won't die. In other words, their existence won't cease, not even for a nanosecond. They can't die once they're changed. They will have put on their spiritual body. Still, that body might remain visible to humans till it becomes invisible once Jesus catches them away to heaven, a short while later.
I'm sorry but I can't follow you there. How can the Temple and the city be rebuilt whereas you say that it hasn't been destroyed yet ? Babylon destroys the temple and the city during the GT. Your reasoning is erroneous if it doesn't go on from that fact onward. The anointed are changed when Jesus appears in the clouds. They can't die nor will they be put into slavery anymore. They won't be put into slavery and be killed by the Babylonian armies whereas Jerusalem is being restored and them changed. That can't be ! The chronological thread is totally upside down. The king of Babylon is the only one and the last one to be allowed such a thing and he'll be destroyed because of it, because he went farther than what Jehovah wanted him to go. The DT won't enter the Holy Place because once Babylon falls, Jehovah says that never again his people is going to be threatened without them being protected.
Well see, I have to intercede here too. It's after the 42 month that the Two Witnesses are killed. Now this will be after they are changed. They remain dead for three and a half days. How are they dead for three physical days after the 42 months end? Before addressing your other questions, I want to put that out to you.
When Jesus appears in the sky and gathers his chosen ones, that's when all the sons of God go to heaven. I'm talking about the time right after Jesus is enthroned, and before they are gathered to Jesus. Stephen was transfigured, yet he died. Jesus was transfigured, yet he died. Putting on inscrutableness only applies to those who were dead and raised, not to the ones who were changed. Show me in scripture where it says the ones who are changed can't die, and I will show you that it's only talking about those who were once dead, then raised. You connect Rome with Babylon, I disagree... They are two separate entities. Rome and Babylon are part of the beast in Rev 13. Then Rome is still part of the last beast in Rev that turns on Babylon. Babylon is not the entity that comes against the Holy Place, Rome is. Babylon is part of the entity that takes Jerusalem into exile, then after Babylon is destroyed, then the Eighth king comes against Jehovah's returned people, and this is without Babylon at that time. Babylon and Rome are separate entities. Just look at the colossal statue in Dan 2. Babylon is merely a part of a collection of other nations, until they turn on her. And these other nations will turn on Babylon after Jerusalem is restored. Then, the remaining beast in Rev, (without Babylon) will enter the Holy Place.
The anointed ones will be changed when the seventh trumpet is blown, that is after the end of the 42 months, which will raise up/release the Two Witnesses, once the Gentile times are over and Babylon has fallen. Then, they'll be immortal.
"Look! I tell YOU a sacred secret: We shall not all fall asleep [in death], but we shall all be changed, in a moment, in the twinkling of an eye, during the last trumpet. For the trumpet will sound, and the dead will be raised up incorruptible, and we shall be changed. For this which is corruptible must put on incorruption, and this which is mortal must put on immortality. But when [this which is corruptible puts on incorruption and] this which is mortal puts on immortality, then the saying will take place that is written: “Death is swallowed up forever.†“Death, where is your victory? Death, where is your sting?†The sting producing death is sin, but the power for sin is the Law. But thanks to God, for he gives us the victory through our Lord Jesus Christ!" - 1 Cor15:51-57 Let it be as you wish...
The "dead" are the ones raised incorruptible. Does it say that those who are "changed" would put on incorruption? Not "all" shall fall asleep in death, that doesn't mean some wont. Rev 6:11 brother; "And a white robe was given to each of them, and they were told to rest a little while longer, until the number was filled of their fellow slaves and their brothers who were about to be killed as they had been."