Tell you what, i'm not going to debate in my words. Unless you can overcome these scriptures that seem to contradict what you are saying, then there is still no definitive answer regarding your thesis. I'll just post scripture and let you go from there. Not sure how effective this will be as you may wonder why I post certain scriptures, just know if I post them then they can be used to reason against what you are saying. Lets give it a shot...

(Ge 2:1-3) . . .Thus the heavens and the earth and all their army came to their completion. 2 And by the seventh day God came to the completion of his work that he had made, and he proceeded to rest on the seventh day from all his work that he had made. 3 And God proceeded to bless the seventh day and make it sacred, because on it he has been resting from all his work that God has created for the purpose of making.. . .

Ecclesiastes 3:14 . . .I have come to know that everything that the [true] God makes, it will prove to be to time indefinite. To it there is nothing to add and from it there is nothing to subtract. . .

Ephesians 2:10 “. . .For we are a product of his work and were created in union with Christ Jesus for good works, which God prepared in advance for us to walk in them.”

(1Pe 1:19-20) . . .even Christ’s. 20 True, he was foreknown before the founding of the world, but he was made manifest at the end of the times for the sake of YOU

(Mt 25:34) 34 “Then the king will say to those on his right, ‘Come, YOU who have been blessed by my Father, inherit the kingdom prepared for YOU from the founding of the world."

(Joh 17:24) . . .Father, as to what you have given me, I wish that, where I am, they also may be with me, in order to behold my glory that you have given me, because you loved me before the founding of the world. . .

(Heb 4:3) . . .They shall not enter into my rest,’” although his works were finished from the founding of the world.

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ok...well I can see that's not going to work without at least giving some explanation as to why I used the scriptures I used.

Lets start with the founding. You use the understanding from the WTS which when you get right down to it is ambiguous at best. In fact when you do a little research their answer for when the founding occurs is three different occasions(they still haven't decided which it is). Abels conception, his birth or his death. In doing so they have created a tangled web of personal interpretation that FORCES the reader to believe something other than what the bible is saying in black and white. Allow me to show you what I am talking about.

The bible tells states clearly that the founding occurred when Jehovah finished his creative works(Heb 4:3) on the sixth day and then made the seventh day a sacred day of rest. We are still in the seventh day of rest. It is the entire basis for the Sabbath, which Jehovah took very seriously.

Heb 4:3 "...although his works were finished from the founding of the world."

Ex 31:15-17 "It is something holy to Jehovah. Anyone doing work on the Sabbath day must be put to death.16 The Israelites must keep the Sabbath; they must observe the Sabbath during all their generations. It is a lasting covenant.17 It is an enduring sign between me and the people of Israel,+ for in six days Jehovah made the heavens and the earth and on the seventh day he rested and refreshed himself.’”
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Yet the society is forcing me to accept the fact that Jehovah stopped resting on his sacred day of rest, created the Sacred Secret, administered the Sacred Secret at Gen 3:15, and then re-founded the world, with an entirely different meaning for world than the original. That's alot to accept, but ok. Lets do a little more research.

The society states, as Joshua referenced:

However doing more research we find this:

Katabolēs (καταβολῆς)
The word for "founding" or “foundation” used in the Greek text of the bible is katabolēs (καταβολῆς). It is a form of the Greek word katabole', which in the root form literally means "a throwing down”. The word katabolēs was used 10 times in the Greek scriptures, and in each of these occurrences it was referring to the “founding”, or foundation of the world.

Since there can be only one “founding of the world” these scriptures cited below are all referring to the same event in time.

Mt 13:35 “… that there might be fulfilled what was spoken through the prophet who said: “I will open my mouth with illustrations, I will publish things hidden since the founding.””
Mt 25:34 ““Then the king will say to those on his right, ‘Come, YOU who have been blessed by my Father, inherit the kingdom prepared for YOU from the founding of the world.”
Lu 11:50-51 “…so that the blood of all the prophets spilled from the founding of the world may be required from this generation, 51 from the blood of Abel down to the blood of Zechariah, who was slain between the altar and the house.’ Yes, I tell YOU, it will be required from this generation”
John 17:24 “…Father, as to what you have given me, I wish that, where I am, they also may be with me, in order to behold my glory that you have given me, because you loved me before the founding of the world.”
Eph 1:4 “…just as he chose us in union with him before the founding of the world, that we should be holy and without blemish before him in love”
Heb 4:3 “…For we who have exercised faith do enter into the rest, just as he has said: “So I swore in my anger, ‘They shall not enter into my rest,’” although his works were finished from the founding of the world.”
Heb 9:26 “. . .Otherwise, he would have to suffer often from the founding of the world. But now he has manifested himself once for all time at the conclusion of the systems of things to put sin away through the sacrifice of himself.. . .”
1Pe 1:20 “…True, he was foreknown before the founding of the world, but he was made manifest at the end of the times for the sake of YOU”
Re 13:8 “And all those who dwell on the earth will worship it; the name of not one of them stands written in the scroll of life of the Lamb who was slaughtered, from the founding of the world.”
Re 17:8 “…The wild beast that you saw was, but is not, and yet is about to ascend out of the abyss, and it is to go off into destruction. And when they see how the wild beast was, but is not, and yet will be present, those who dwell on the earth will wonder admiringly, but their names have not been written upon the scroll of life from the founding of the world.”
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Katabolēn (καταβολὴν)
Another scripture Heb 11:11, uses the Greek word katabolēn (καταβολὴν) in it. It also is a form of the root word Katabole’. As mentioned before Katabole’ literally means “a throwing down”, thus the scripture refers to a throwing down of seed, as in human seed, from Abraham to Sarah, and therefore “to conceive” is rendered in the scripture.

Hebrews 11:11 By faith, even Sarah herself received power to conceive, and she bore a child when she was past age, since she counted him faithful who had promised.

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Understand that although the two words, Katabolen & Kataboles use the same root word Katabole’, they are different words conveying two different meanings.

To illustrate, we have many words in the English language that share the same root word yet convey different meanings. Take for example the word "cross". It can mean several different things, so lets use the word in some sentences.

- In todays world Christians use the cross to identify themselves as followers of Jesus.
- He wanted to cross the road to get to the other side.
- She was quite cross with him after she found out.
- Joshua wanted to cross his arms but couldn't because of the cast.

The root word for cross was crux, which the above sentences share. Using the Watchtowers reasoning, we can then infer Joshua is a Christian, because the same root word, crux, is used in both sentences. Really?????????????

THIS IS WHAT THE SOCIETY HAS DONE!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!! And to keep perpetuating this lie gets us nowhere closer to the truth.

Here are the two scriptures together,


Heb 4:3 “…For we who have exercised faith do enter into the rest, just as he has said: “So I swore in my anger, ‘They shall not enter into my rest,’” although his works were finished from the founding(Katabolēs) of the world.”

Hebrews 11:11 By faith, even Sarah herself received power to conceive(Katabolēn), and she bore a child when she was past age, since she counted him faithful who had promised.


The society is actually using a scripture, Heb 11:11, that doesn't even talk about the founding to base the entire understanding of when the founding took place, AND in doing so completely INVALIDATES the actual scripture(Heb 4:3) that tells us WHEN the founding occurred. Just seven chapters prior.

WOW!!!! Simply put that is the power of deceptive reasoning based on personal interpretation at it's finest.

No! I will not accept this fallacy promoted by the society. If you wish to believe and promote it, that is your choice and this discussion will conclude here. However if you are the adept student as you claim then honestly look at the scriptures and recognize the deception as it truly is and lets move forward with a clearer and brighter picture of the truth in the scriptures.

 

(Heb 4:2-3) . . .. 3 For we who have exercised faith do enter into the rest, just as he has said: “So I swore in my anger, ‘They shall not enter into my rest,’” although his works were finished from the founding of the world.. . .

Red part, yes that is what THE SCRIPTURE SAYS!!!

Blue part. No. That is your belief. Not what I have been explaining.

No, I am consistent in my belief when I state that the Sacred Secret was created prior to creation, and that it was revealed/administered at Gen 3:15.

However, just as I was pondering over this topic something wonderful occurred to me and I will do my best to explain.

Lets start with Jesus Christ. Before Jehovah created Jesus at Pro 8:22,23 he knew that he would create him. It was an idea that was part of his purpose for who knows how long, perhaps eternity. Then at Jesus Christs creation, you could say his birth, he came to exist. In fact everything that has been created(free will, Jesus Christ, the heavens, angels, the universe, man, sacred secret) was at one time an idea that Jehovah had in himself prior to actually creating it. It was all part of his purpose to eventually create, or cause to become all that he had purposed in his mind.

So when I am talking about Jehovah creating the Sacred Secret prior to creation, I suppose that is not entirely accurate in the sense of actually creating it, or giving it birth. In fact if you think about it, he didn't even create it at Gen 3:15, but vaguely alluded to it in prophetic form. IN FACT the actual creation, or birth, of the Sacred Secret didn't happen until Jesus was baptized, thus being anointed with the holy spirit and the approval being given by his father. It was at this time that Jesus became a new creation.

(Mt 3:16-17) 16 After being baptized Jesus immediately came up from the water; and, look! the heavens were opened up, and he saw descending like a dove God’s spirit coming upon him. 17 Look! Also, there was a voice from the heavens that said: “This is my Son, the beloved, whom I have approved.. . ."

This was the actual birth or creation of the Sacred Secret that had already long ago, prior to creation(Pro 8:22,23) existed in Jehovah himself.

(Eph 1:8-9) 8 This he caused to abound toward us in all wisdom and good sense, 9 in that he made known to us the sacred secret of his will[purpose]. It is according to his good pleasure which he purposed in himself. . .(Eph 3:9-11) . . .and should make men see how the sacred secret is administered which has from the indefinite past been hidden in God, who created all things. 10 [This was] to the end that now to the governments and the authorities in the heavenly places there might be made known through the congregation the greatly diversified wisdom of God, 11 according to the eternal purpose that he formed in connection with the Christ, Jesus our Lord.."

Consider also that we are dealing with a "secret". A Sacred secret at that. If Jehovah created the secret after the sin and instituted it right away at Gen 3:15, well that's not much of a secret is it?

No, rather, this secret was to be used ONLY in the event that Adam & Eve also chose to sin after Satan had. If you want to call it a just in case I suppose you could, but it was the ONLY just in case that was needed. For if Adam & Eve had chosen not to sin, it is quite likely that Satan would have been put to death, and the human family would have been ready to take of the Tree of Life, for up until the sin they were doing perfectly, just as expected. And if anybody sinned after that, the precedent of free will had been established by Satan, as the Tree of Knowledge of Good and Bad represented, and therefore would most likely receive the same prompt sentence, death. And the Sacred Secret would have remained a secret for all eternity.

 

And that WAS the straw that broke the camels back. This discussion is over. Who talks like that in a discussion? Seriously. It's almost like you are trying to convince yourself. You tell me to act like a Christian and show Christian love but when we discuss things with you the gloves come off, and now it's somehow ok to treat us like we're morons because you feel you know better. You twisted what I said, and I never changed my core statements until the last post(#6) which I feel is a more accurate representation of what the scriptures teach.

As I said above, if you want to promote the lies i'm DONE!!!!

Please do not reply to me and I'll do the same. In fact just block me and I'll do the same. This really is the Christian thing to do to keep it civil.