With all do respect, there's no reason to continue this subject. Number one, I don't believe Adam and Jesus are equal in any way, and you put to much emphasis on the two having parallels that don't exist.

Adam never had the opportunity to go to heaven. Had he not sinned he would have lived on earth for ever.

Jesus did not die when he left heaven, the scripture says he gave up his position willingly.

You arbitrarily connect the end of your chronology to the start of the kingdom, why did you choose that event and not any number of events in the time of the end?

You were mistaken that Peter was the first disciple, he was not.

Jesus gathering his disciples has no prophetic connection to anything else in scripture, that is conjecture on your part.

You say Adam was baptized our born again at 30, that does not exist in scripture, and again an invention on your part.

The only connection between Adam and Jesus we gain from scripture is the fact that Jesus came to make up for the perfect life Adam lost, anything more is beyond what is there.

You have built a web of chronology that only exists in your own mind Frank. It only takes one single mistake in chronology to skew off from scripture, and you've presented nothing but personal interpretation. I say this with all do respect.

Prophecy doesn't need us to interpret it, it's all there. No one will just simply understand the truth, it will all be laid out in scripture, just as Daniel discovered. The connections must be written as if in stone, without any objection being able to be raised, for God's word comes from him and true chronology has no paradoxes for Jehovah himself wrote scripture.

Chronology is like math, there is only one right answer.

 

SingleCell, I have a question for you. Can you show a scriptural connection to how the two witnesses are killed by the beast in Rev 13 if it is said they are killed by the beast from the abyss? The beast in Rev 13 is clearly from the sea with a death stroke. I say the beast in Rev 13 exists with the death stroke before it later goes into and out of the abyss, which answers this question, what say you?

"When they have finished their witnessing, the wild beast that ascends out of the abyss will wage war with them and conquer them and kill them" (Rev 11:7)

 

I don't think it's clear And as far as I can tell, neither do translators, since they put a paragraph break in Rev 13:3

If you agree that the 7 heads are empires over time, then you are stuck in a logical conundrum because the beast comes out of the sea with the 7 heads.

This is a clue that verse 1 - 2 is NOT a present day event, but a summary authenticating WHO the beast is.

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13: 1 - 2

Origin story and identification of the beast from the sea. Why? Because Rome and the derivative iron-clay was NEVER mentioned by name

(because neither existed when Daniel gave us the beast authenticators)

John, writing Revelation, continued where Daniel stopped.

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THEN we come to verse 3:

I saw that one of its heads seemed to have been fatally wounded, but its mortal wound had been healed, and all the earth followed the wild beast with admiration.

Notice that the world followed the beast AFTER the death-stroke was healed. What does that correlate with?

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And then in verse 5 we see the abyss - death-stroke correlation:

It was given a mouth speaking great things and blasphemies, and it was given authority to act for 42 months.

For 3 1/2 years the beast wages war with the holy ones, at the end of which time it conquers and kills them. (the killing of the 'two witnesses')

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Then in chapter 11, we see the same time frame:

and they will trample the holy city underfoot for 42 months. 3 I will cause my two witnesses to prophesy for 1,260 days dressed in sackcloth


And the beast from the abyss (death-stroke in 13) kills them:

When they have finished their witnessing, the wild beast that ascends out of the abyss will wage war with them and conquer them and kill them.

So, the 7th head of the string of empires over time goes into the abyss (death-stroke), when it resurrects it begins persecuting the holy ones and conquers them at the end of their witnessing.

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Also see correlation in chapter 17 with verse 13:3 when the world 'wonders' after the beast:

will be amazed when they see how the wild beast was, but is not, and yet will be present

There is ONE death-stroke that makes the world believe the beast is dead. This is the 'abyss', a classic biblical reference to death.

It then resurrects, persecutes the holy ones and conquers them after 3 1/2 years, during which, dressed in sackcloth they witness. Then Jesus returns and conquers.

 

I don't see any discrepancy in the new paragraph, it simply discusses a new subject of one of the heads instead of the whole, therefore a new paragraph. Other then that I see nothing to say they are different times, do you not agree? To imply the verses are separated by time is to imply something, if we are to read the text just as it is, you would read these events are all the same moment.

Well let's look at this another way. If you are saying that the beast has been coming out of the sea since the first head (which was Egypt) that would mean it's been coming out of the sea for a long time.

Or one could say with each new head it carries the previous with it given that when a new head is formed the others just remain. Hence you could have the 7th head formed and still see the six remaining, and this is done in order to understand at what point in history you are.

One thing we can say is none of them can exist at the same time, after all Babylon as a physical city no longer exists, so therefore the 7 cannot all exist at the same time. Therefore would you not agree that even though the 7th is the only one in existence at Rev 13, the reason the other six are mentioned is to identify the 7th as Rome?

So with that in mind that beast coming from the sea could have been formed at either the moment the 7th head was formed, or when the death stroke occurred.

Again, don't you think 7 heads are mentioned to identify the 7th? Because John in Rev 17 tells us Rome is the 7th and the 8th is not yet.

So if the 7 heads are to tell us that the 7th is Rome in Rev 13, where is the 8th? To imply that Rev 1-2 is a time period before Rev 3 is to put our own understanding into the chapter isn't it? Shouldn't the simplistic answer be the first idea looked at?

I would think that the first idea should be as it reads, that the beast comes from the sea at some point that the 7th head exists, (Rome), not before or after because the 7th only came into existence at a certain point, and only one head can rule at a time, therefore this moment can not be previous to that head. Then wouldn't it also be the simplest understanding to say that it was one of those 7 that had a death stroke? I mean if we are reading it just as it is, without trying to imply anything?

With that in mind, wouldn't the next step be to say that it has to be the 7th head that has the death stroke?

Now in this scenario logic would say that the 7th head still exists after the head was healed. Does that mean an 8th head? Well, if we read it just as it is, it says that the 7th head is healed, not a new 7th head, not an 8th, but a healed 7th head, which means the 7th head goes on in power.

Keep this in mind, was there ever two heads alive at the same time? If you say that the 7th head death stroke that was healed is the 8th head, that means the 7th head is alive along side the 8th, and that doesn't make any sense. Besides there is no indication at all in chapter 13 that there is an 8th king at all, it's not even mentioned, why?

One must assume that verses 1-3 are all speaking of a singular moment, because to say otherwise would be to add more then is there, don't you think? If we were to read those verses just as they are, that would be the simplest understanding. And it wouldn't be a stretch to say that each time a new head is formed, the last one no longer exists, (hence the nature of world power) and that means that beast in Rev 13 could come from the sea the moment the 7th head obtains it's death stroke.

If you look at this way then you would be looking at an event that caused the 7th king to almost go down, but something saved it, and this would be before the 8th king arises, because Rev 13 says the 7th head is healed, once the 8th king comes the 7th will no longer be the world power.

This seems to me to be the literal reading, would you not agree?

Well let's look at what the chapter says. The 7 heads aren't the only part, it says the beast is like a leopard, it's feet like a bear and it's mouth like a lion. Isn't it interesting that it says mouth and not mouths? Why do you think that is? I would think the literal reading suggests that only one head of the seven can exist at any time, after all that's what John says in Rev 17 that each head only exists individually without the previous.

So, this 7th head also exists with other beasts, and why do I say that? Because the leopard, bear and lion are directly connected to Dan chapter 7. The lion, bear and leopard are all there in that chapter and have a modern day fulfillment. Let me give you an example;

The image in Dan 2 has Babylon as the head of gold right? Then the beasts in Dan 7 also represent those kingdoms in Dan 2, which means the lion is Babylon. Babylon and the lion also exist in Rev. We know the 8th king turns on Babylon, but guess what, Babylon is the lion in Rev 13 and is still alive in that image, and happens to be the mouth, part of the head! Yes, the lion in the beast of Rev 13 is Babylon in it's modern form and still alive and riding atop the beast in 13 before she is turned on.

So then, now you would be looking for an event that nearly killed the 7th world power, but it was saved and is still the world power, because if the 7th head was healed, it's still the world power. Then you would also be looking for a group of nations that include the 7th head and as well Babylon and two other nations of equal influence as a single beast.

Also, do you notice there is one beast from Dan 7 missing from the beast in Rev 13? Maybe that's because it is the second beast in Rev 13 and the formation of the iron and clay... but I don't have to get to far into that for right now other then there is a point that the clay mixes with the iron/two horn second beast/death stroke healed... but later on that...

Okay my friend, think about this. Let's stay with my theme of reading the text as it is in the simplest form possible. We know the beast in Rev 13 acts 42 months. Now who is to say that it is the 8th king from the abyss who does this? Aren't we implying this, because that really can't be found.

We know the 8th king kills the two witnesses who are dead 3.5 days, but this isn't the 42 months.

So what if the beast including the 7th head that's healed, along with the lion/Babylon and two more major players, and ten horns come against the holy covenant and act 42 months before the 8th king arises? That's certainly a possibility, and I might add the simplest reading of the text.

This would also mean that the 8th king would have to come some time after this and before the two witnesses are killed. (Which I can show you that chronology as well).

The point here is the acting 42 months and the killing of the two witnesses for 3.5 days are not the same thing and cannot be used to connect the 7th head stroke to the abyssing and 8th king rising.

Again let me summarize. The literal reading would say that John in chapter 17 is saying that the beast in 13 will go into the abyss after we see it in 13. The literal reading says that the beast comes from the sea when the 7th head is healed, and that 7th head remains the world power. As well there are other beasts included in that beast in Rev 13 including the leopard, bear and lion. It's clear that the lion is Babylon, and still alive at the point of 13. So therefore it appears John is saying that the whole beast including the leopard the bear and the lion along with the 7th head that was healed will then go into the abyss, because after all that beast is from the sea, but all together will go into the abyss, and then rise as the 8th, it's at that point the 7th will not be the world power, therefore the 7th head could not be healed. Simply put that has to be the understanding.

You see the confusion comes in because the identity of that beast in Rev 13 and 17 are the same, they are both the same entity but shown in two differn't time periods. One when it comes from the sea as we see it in 13 along with the 7th head as a part of it while the 7th head is still in power, even though it was almost killed at one point. Not wanting to get into it to deep but, that's where the iron mixes with clay and the two horned beast comes from in Rev 13.

What if the first prophecy in the bible said, "You will bruise him in the heal, and he will bruise you in the head, but it will heal". Does it say that? No of course not, so why does Rev 13 say that the 7th head would be healed? The literal reading must be that the 7th head is still in power after the healing, which means the 8th is not on the scene yet, and in fact the 8th isn't even mentioned in 13.

The literal reading must be that the death stroke Rev 13 is not the same event as the abyssing mentioned by John in Rev 17, that idea is an implication anyway. That is an interpretation that in fact does not hold up to the literal reading.

Trust me, I am well versed in the idea that they are the same, it's what Robert thinks, it's what probably everyone on here thinks, but it just doesn't fit the chronology. The 7th king goes down and the 8th king rises 885 days after the 42 months begin, so therefore there is no way it can be the the 8th king in Rev 13. I know this goes into chronology and you may not understand it completely, but that is where the proof lies. I try and explain why the two entities at 13 and 17 are the same beast but two different time periods by just sentence structure, but in the end the proof is in the timeline, and this is what the timeline says.

 

"but its mortal wound had been healed, and all the earth followed the wild beast with admiration"

Has the world been following the UK with admiration since the supposed-death-stroke-healing loan?

I disagree with a literal line-by-line interpretation of these prophecies;

This same mechanic of interpretation leads to "Gog" being Russia, America being Babylon the Great, physical Israel being spiritual Israel, and these sorts of conclusions.

Our argument boils down to me rejecting that mechanic I see the scriptures as encoded, or encrypted.

No 'private interpretation' will be correct (E.G. using extra-biblical interpretations). Everything we need to understand these prophecies comes from decrypting and correlating the scriptures.

Literal line-by-line attempts at superimposing the prophecies over modern headlines is a dead-end IMO. They aren't that specific to find fulfillment in minor events in recent history.

I'll respond in more detail quoting you tomorrow

 

You said:

"Let's stay with my theme of reading the text as it is in the simplest form possible."

Why would the true interpretation be found in the simplest reading possible?

If that were the case, the TV prophets would be correct. They are looking to transpose modern nations and modern headlines on-top of the prophecies, ignoring the correlating symbolic decoding system built-in.

This in my mind is the real meaning behind the statement that 'prophecy does not arise from private interpretation', or in other words, temporal understanding.

Everything we need to understand Revelation is built-in to the scriptures and speaks in broad overview, sans the concluding period of 42 months.

 

I am very unemotional about these discussions Joshua, just so you know; my counter-arguments are boiler-plate rebuttals bro

You said:

"I don't see any discrepancy in the new paragraph, it simply discusses a new subject of one of the heads instead of the whole, therefore a new paragraph. Other then that I see nothing to say they are different times, do you not agree?"

This is a self-refuting statement.

You are saying that YES the seven heads are nations over time (Egypt -> Present), and YES the subject of 1-2 is the whole (seven nations over time).

But then you say that the new paragraph (verse 3) is speaking about a specific time period regarding the seventh head.

That is my EXACT argument. Rev 13:1-2 is the whole (seven empires over time) and 3 - X is specific, a future time period referencing the seventh head AFTER is comes out of the abyss / death-stroke.

So when you say:

"Other then that I see nothing to say they are different times, do you not agree?"

Your own preceding statement discredits your conclusion.

No, I definitely don't agree And you've proven my point for me!

 

Well since I say the death stroke was to Britain at the end of the second world war and the Anglo-American loan is what healed it, that brought onto the world stage the iron-clay, also that second beast of Rev 13.

However, I say it is the whole beast made up of the 7th head, leopard, lion and bear with the ten horns that make up the UN, and I would say yes, the whole world has followed the UN with admiration. Any time anything happens in the world, where is the first place countries go, is it not the UN? Before acting most all countries always go to the UN first.

Okay, let's switch gears here for a minute. Instead of going on about sentence structure, let's switch right to why they can't be the same moment. Let's go right to the timeline and the proof in the chronology.

Dan 7:7,8 "After this I kept watching in the visions of the night, and I saw a fourth beast, fearsome and terrifying and unusually strong, and it had large iron teeth. It was devouring and crushing, and what was left it trampled down with its feet. It was different from all the other beasts that were prior to it, and it had ten horns. While I considered the horns, look! another horn, a small one, came up among them, and three of the first horns were plucked up from before it."

The fourth beast of Dan 7 is Rome. Now the small horn that comes against Gods people comes from this beast. This small horn is the beast at Rev 13.

Dan 7:21 21 “I kept watching as that horn made war on the holy ones, and it was prevailing against them,"

So therefore the beast that acts 42 months in Rev 13 is this small horn from Rome.

Now, when is Rome destroyed and the 8th king rises? Well here it is;

Dan 7:11,12 "I kept watching at that time because of the sound of the arrogant words that the horn was speaking; I watched until the beast was killed and its body was destroyed and it was given over to be burned in the fire. But as for the rest of the beasts, their rulerships were taken away, and their lives were prolonged for a time and a season."

So Rome is still alive when this horn comes against the holy people for 42 months. That's right the 7th head is still the world power when the 42 months begin, which means the small horn is not yet the 8th king when it comes against the holy covenant, but it comes against Gods people in a form before becoming the 8th king. As I've said it is the UN as it currently is that will come against Gods people, and will not become the 8th until deep in the time of the end, and when does that happen? Well that happens when the 7th goes down;

The scripture above says, "the beast was killed and its body was destroyed and it was given over to be burned in the fire. But as for the rest of the beasts, their rulerships were taken away, and their lives were prolonged for a time and a season" So Rome/the 7th head is killed. That doesn't say healed again, that says gone by by. And then it says that the other beasts, meaning the lion leopard and bear will be allowed to live but that their rulerships would be taken away. This is the moment the 8th king rises, and what does it say as to when this happens? Well the other beasts would last a time and a season without their rulerships. So they give up their rule to the 8th king 450 days before they themselves no longer exist. A time equals 360, and a season is one fourth of that equaling 90 days for a total of 450 days. That is how long before the new world the 8th king takes over from Rome. Now the small horn acts 42 months, and how long is that? That's 1260 days, so as you see the small horn pictured in Rev 13 cannot yet be the 8th king when it comes against the covenant because the 7th head doesn't go down until 450 days before the first day of the new world, yet there are 1260 days the small horn that comes from Rome will come against Gods people...

 

I made a mistake in that sentence structure, I did not mean other then the fact that it's a new paragraph in our current translations that shows a different time period, I simply meant that there is nothing else I can think of or that you bring up to show they are different time periods. (Not in exemption of, but including)

I meant that there is nothing to say verse 3 is any other time period then verses 1-2, and to say otherwise is to put more into the verses then is there, the paragraph is separated by men.

I don't think scripture is a codex that is decoded. You see it as signs that take you here or there to put in place missing pieces. Such as saying that verse 3 is a different time then 1-2. I see scripture as linear up to the point it directly guides you to another location, and until it does that you must read the text as literal. This is the only way to allow scripture to explain itself. It says what it says literally unless it explicitly guides us away in the exact same wording to another location in scripture.

Such as chronology, one mistake in chronology and everything after is void. So let's take our example of Rev 13, if you say verse 3 is a different time then 1-2 you right there add an interpretation that doesn't exist, and unless it's written in stone (as it were) you could never prove that and you just fall back on scripture being cryptic and you are following a personal interpretation, other then taking it as it is.

You have to admit if you read verses 1-3 on there own, without any knowledge of any other part of the Bible, would you not think that when verse 1 says there are seven heads that the death stroke was among them? Otherwise you are saying the death stroke comes after verse 1... The natural reading suggests that verse one talks about the 7 heads and one of them have a death stroke already in verse 1.

Please defer to my last post #49 for the proof in the timeline.

 

Let me give you another example of how dangerous it can be to your understanding to connect two events in scripture.

You connect the death stroke of 13 with the abyssing of 17, ok... You know what that reminds me of? What if someone thought the heaven high tree in Dan 4 represented Jerusalem because that city was described as a tree somewhere else in scripture, or that the tree shielded all of Gods creatures? One could start to see a connection that really isn't there can't they? I mean, try as you might you cannot connect the fall of that tree in Dan 4 with the fall of Jerusalem, but someone could infer it couldn't they?

Can you physically connect the death stroke to the Abyssing, or is it simply inferred?

Again, please defer to my post #49 for the proof in the chronology.

 

But aren't you left suggesting that there are two events where two different 7 headed beast receive a blow in some form?

From what I gather that you are telling me, there is a 7 headed beast (Egypt -> Present), and another 7 headed beast (the UN / member nations / etc).

Both of these beasts receive a death-like event. One sends one to the abyss, and the other receives a death-stroke. (Rev 13 and Rev 17 being different events, and different 7 headed beasts)

Both of these beasts then rise from the blow and persecute the holy ones. (Rev 13 persecution from the 7th head anglo-America, and Rev 17 persecution by the 7-headed UN, as two events)

Is that what you are saying? I want to make sure we're on the same page about our frameworks before proceeding!

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Just to be clear, I correlate the seven heads and the aforementioned similar events (death-stroke, abyss, persecutions of holy ones) to infer that this is the same beast and same event being discussed in Rev 13, 17, 11 and Daniel 7, 8, 11.

Each chapter containing different details for this event.

 

Sure!

There are wrong connections in the scriptures, there are missed connections, and there are connections where none exist.

Either way: there are connections and correlations in the scriptures.

Because of this, it's not a good method of elimination to say 'because there are wrongly ascribed connections there are NO connections.'

I find the Bible to be self-defining, for the most part (an encoding system). Daniel identified who the lion-eagle, ram, goat, etc are; I see no reason to superimpose modern nations over Daniel's revelation.

By letting the Bible define itself, we're only forced to connect the prophecies with post-Biblical history through the iron-clay nation-state derivative of Rome, and the upcoming '8th king' which comes from the 7 post-Abyss.

The authentication system will initiate again when we clearly identify the nation-system which 'goes into the abyss' and then resurrects to persecute Christians.

 

I like the ----'s you add to your posts, they kind of give me an idea where you want me to comment...lol

No I am not saying that in fact. The 7th head cannot be in power the same time as the 8th. What I'm saying is only the seventh head in Rev 13 is the seventh power, Rome. The entire beast is the UN, that's why there are other beasts and horns included in that beast, those are other nations. The only reason it says 7 heads is to let you know only 7 kingdoms have existed up till that point, not 8. Rome almost died after WWII when Britain was infused from the Anglo-American loan bringing to life the iron mixed with clay, Oligarchy/Republic rules, a unworkable union at one table.

I am saying that the death stroke of the 7th head occurred just after WWII to Britain, and then that created the iron and clay mix of the second beast in Rev 13/Anglo-America. Now the UN was founded just before this (and I go into the exact dates in my work, but I've got kabobs on the grill...lol), and it's the UN as a whole we see that will go down into the abyss, and right along with it will be the 7th king along with Anglo-America and the rest of the beasts included in the UN. Then at that point all of these other kings give up their power and rule to the UN and it itself will become the 8th king that will only be around for 450 days in the time of the end.

It's only one head of the beast in Rev 13 that head a death stroke and was healed, not the lion, not the leopard, not the bear nor any of the horns, only one of the heads.

Rev 17 says the WHOLE beast we saw will go into the abyss and then out, and how did we see that beast? We saw it with a death stroke that was healed, with a lion, leopard and bear, and as well ten horns, and it's the beast as a whole the Rev 17 says will go into the abyss, not just one of it's heads having a death stroke and healed. Besides if a deathstroke is healed, it isn't fatal. There are 7 heads, not 8 in Rev 13.

The UN in Rev 13 will come against "Jehovah's witnesses/Courtyard trampled" and will close their doors starting the 1260 days, and then 450 days before the first day of the new world the UN will become the 8th king when the entire beast in Rev 13 goes into the abyss, and this 8th king is the one that kills the two witnesses. You see the 8th king rises in between the start of the 42 months and the two witnesses being killed.

I know you do, and so do so many more, I even at one time had no reason to doubt that, until I discovered the chronology made that impossible. You see I firmly believe that the 8th king rises 450 days before the first day of the new world, and that means it can't act 1260 days as the 8th king, but starts the 1260 days in it's current form (the UN) and then the UN will become the 8th king deep in the end.

I've told you before the best place to start is Dan 12:11... There are actually two attacks on Gods people, not just one. There is the moment Jerusalem was surrounded in 66CE and the moment the Holy Place was destroyed in 70, and there is 1290 days between them. In the time of the end the Watchtower Society will be shut down by the UN starting the 1260 days, and then 30 days after that (1290 days) the 8th king will come against the rebuilt temple (Christs brothers still alive) and will try to cut their cords from Jehovah, starting Armageddon.

 

Even though the angel tells us the prophecies of Dan 7,8 had a fulfillment back with Media/Persia, and Greece, he also tells us these prophecies have an end time fulfillment as well;

Dan 8:19 Then he said: “Here I am causing you to know what will happen in the final part of the denunciation, because it is for the appointed time of the end.

 

Yes, exactly!

Therefore the correlating beast identifiers in Rev 13 serve as a continuation of Daniel.

We don't need to alter 'who' the identifiers point to, just understand why they are pictured in the singular 7-headed beast.

Going through your other post now.