607 vs 586 BCE

Discussion in 'Bible Prophecy' started by Joshuastone7, Jul 11, 2018.

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    Joshuastone7

    Joshuastone7 Administrator Staff Member

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    The Watchtower perpetually holds to 607 BCE as the date of the Babylonian destruction of Jerusalem, and the ending of the line of succession of the Daviadic throne. However, in this article we are going to look at an objective overview of the facts in history, archaeology, and common sense, in order to gain a broader view of what exactly is going on here.

    To begin with, the Watchtower has not always held that 607 was the year of the fall of Jerusalem to Babylon. In fact it wasn't until the 1940's that they unceremoniously slipped in the 607 BCE date, in replacing a 606 date simply because they recognized there was no zero year. Is this form of historical precedence tenable?

    It should be quite interesting for all truth seekers to be made aware that we do in fact have hard evidence to the matter of when exactly Jerusalem fell to Babylon, so let's look at that.

    What we have below is Babylonian tablet VAT 4956, an astronomical diary that records 13 lunar observations, and 15 planetary. It details the position of the moon and the planets in regard of certain stars and constellations, indicating the days and the months throughout the year 37 of the reign of Nebuchadnezzar, the king of Babylon; and the astronomical observations recorded in this tablet, can only correspond to the year 567 BC.

    [​IMG]
    So we have direct physical eye witness evidence of the exact location of all known heavenly bodies at an exact point in Nebuchadnezzars 37th year reign. It should be noted that the alignment of these astronomical bodies only line up in any given position once every 40,000 years. Also included on the tablet are observations of lunar eclipses that we know now that occurred on the exact day and time noted on the tablet.

    This tablet definitively confirms that the year 37 of Nebuchadnezzar’s reign corresponds to 567 BC in our calendar, and since the destruction of Jerusalem took place in the 19th year of his reign, that is, 17 years before 567 BC, Jerusalem was undoubtedly destroyed in 586 BCE.

    Regardless of the holdouts who try to shoehorn these tablets into a 607 BCE date of the fall of Jerusalem, there is no evidence in the fourth chapter of Daniel that the heaven high tree was representative of the Davadic throne. There is no Scriptural evidence that any part of the vision in that chapter was to denote an ending of rulership of a physical or spiritual Jerusalem.

    1914 is an error, an artfully contrived personal interpretation without any foundation once an objective overview is applied without the iron fisted grasp of the Governing Body baring down on an objective observer.
     
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    Tsaphah

    Tsaphah Experienced Member

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    Time and Dates (How important are they?)

    The Western world has accepted what is titled the “Gregorian Calendar”. It is also known as the “Christian Calendar”. There is also the “Julian Calendar” which was used prior to the “Gregorian Calendar”. What are the differences and why should we be concerned about the time sequences, days, dates, and years?

    Both the “Julian Calendar” and the “Gregorian Calendar” are imperfect ways to date time prior to their use. The Hebrews, Egyptians, Babylonians, Assyrians, Greeks, and other nations used different ways to keep track of time. Pre-Gregorian dates can be vastly different, due to who was recording the event, and how that date was associated with a particular ruler or ruling nation. There is also the power of influence on the historian writing the account.

    And God said, Let there be lights in the firmament of the heaven to divide the day from the night; and let them be for signs, and for seasons, and for days, and years: And let them be for lights in the firmament of the heaven to give light upon the earth: and it was so. And God made two great lights; the greater light to rule the day, and the lesser light to rule the night: he made the stars also. And God set them in the firmament of the heaven to give light upon the earth, And to rule over the day and over the night, and to divide the light from the darkness: and God saw that it was good. And the evening and the morning were the fourth day.” ( Gen 1:11-19 DNKJB )

    Here is a specific time period mentioned in the bible.
    In the six hundredth year of Noah's life, in the second month, the seventeenth day of the month, the same day were all the fountains of the great deep broken up, and the windows of heaven were opened. And the rain was upon the earth forty days and forty nights.” ( Gen 7:11-12 DNKJB )

    And the waters prevailed upon the earth an hundred and fifty days.” (Gen 7:24 DNKJB ) (5 months.)
    The Hebrew word, gabar, is translated as “prevailed” in several versions. In the NWT it is translated as “overwhelming”. Literally: strong, with strength.

    And it came to pass in the six hundredth and first year, in the first month, the first day of the month, the waters were dried up from off the earth: and Noah removed the covering of the ark, and looked, and, behold, the face of the ground was dry. And in the second month, on the seven and twentieth day of the month, was the earth dried.”
    ( Gen 8:13-14 DNKJB )

    Even with these specific times we don’t know “what season” these time periods began. When did the six hundredth year begin, or first month, or the second month?

    https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Julian_calendar

    https://www.timeanddate.com/calendar/gregorian-calendar.html

    https://www.timeanddate.com/calendar/julian-gregorian-switch.html

    The year 1914 was a significant time in recent history. The first time the major ruling nations were caught up into a “World War”. This may likely be the reason to “back track” to find a significant time in Bible history.

    According to the number of days which you spied out the land, forty days, for every day you shall bear your guilt a year, even forty years, and you will know My opposition.” ( Num 14:34 NASB ) This scripture was used by the WTB&TS to figure the time from 607 BC to 1914 AD.
     
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    Joshuastone7

    Joshuastone7 Administrator Staff Member

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    Greetings brother,

    I didn't quite understand your statement above. Were you saying that you find 1914 a significant year in Biblical prophecy, as it pertains to chronology? And please explain...
     
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    Abdiel7

    Abdiel7 New Member

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    I agree 1914 is a fraud of the devil. I am open to the destruction not having been in 607 provided one criteria is met. Please explain how the date one gets from the tablet is compatible with the 70 weeks
     
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    Joshuastone7

    Joshuastone7 Administrator Staff Member

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    In a Nov 2011 Watchtower article the Society claimed "Much of the astronomical data in VAT 4956 fits the year 588 B.C.E." They sight a lunar eclipse mentioned on the tablet that occurs in the year 588, as a precedence to say their interpretation is correct. However, with a more objective view, this understanding is not tenable.

    There use of the word "much" is nothing more then a feeble attempt at admitting some information in this tablet does not in fact coincide with 588 BCE, but that more does, which is a great exaggeration. A more accurate statement would be that "some" information coincides with 588, but that "most all" information coincides with a year of 567 BCE. It's a very disingenuous statement to put forward to a captive audience, and flies in the face of critical thinking.

    You get to the year Jerusalem was destroyed through Jer 52:12-14:

    Jer 52:12-14 "In the fifth month, on the tenth day of the month, that is, in the 19th year of King Neb·u·chad·nezʹzar the king of Babylon, Neb·uʹzar·adʹan the chief of the guard, who was an attendant of the king of Babylon, came into Jerusalem. He burned down the house of Jehovah, the king’s house, and all the houses of Jerusalem; he also burned down every large house. And the walls surrounding Jerusalem were pulled down by the entire Chal·deʹan army that was with the chief of the guard."

    The Babylonian tablet describes the astronomical events in the 37th year of Nebuchadnezzar's reign, therefore we can use computers to calculate the known positioning of these heavenly astronomical bodies to narrow down the exact year corresponding to our Gregorian calendar as it pertains to the 37th year of his rule. At which point you will be able to determine the 19th year of that rule in order to find the date of the fall of Jerusalem.

    The overwhelming consensus is that the tablet denotes a year of 567 BCE with only one discrepancy, a single day miscount within it's transcription, while in contrary nearly all of the positioning of these celestial bodies fail to meet a suggested 588 BCE date.

    Again, for any who may be reading this material at a future date, all of this is irrelevant, for there is nothing in Dan chapter 4 that indicates Nebuchadnezzar's dream had a fulfillment in the Davadic throne. Even if by imagination Jerusalem fell in 607 BCE, there is no Biblical precedence to indicate that we are to calculate a 2500 "Gregorian" year count from the fall of Jerusalem to an invisible enthronement of the line of David. Keep in mind also, the Watchtower applies a 360 year Biblical "time" to a 365 year Gregorian calendar in order to arrive at 1914. If one is accurate, 2520 times in prophecy would technically be 2520 years made up of 360 day years, at which point would fail miserably in complying with a 1914 date. As well, besides even this, the Watchtowers interpretation of the fulfillments of the 1260 day, 42 month period is laughable, dumbfounding, and downright ridiculous, no less then its 1290 and 1335 day explanations.

    We fear not though, all things will come to light, for nothing will remain in darkness...
     
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    Abdiel7

    Abdiel7 New Member

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    We and many on your site are in accord on these points. Respectfully AJ you haven't answered my question though I do appreciate the data provided for everyone. I was speaking of the 70 weeks of Daniel 9 as that's the one point that'd have to be reconciled in some fashion.
     
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    Joshuastone7

    Joshuastone7 Administrator Staff Member

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    Your right, I apologize I did not... I was thinking you were discussing the fall of Jerusalem, instead of the call to rebuild, my mistake... Please allow me to finish up another project and I will certainly address that point with you...

    May you have Jehovah's Spirit in abundance dear friend...
     
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    Abdiel7

    Abdiel7 New Member

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    Absolutely, take your time and thank you brother.
     
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    Tsaphah

    Tsaphah Experienced Member

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    What I meant to imply was the year 1914 being such a significant time that someone (WTB&TS) used it to backtrack to 607BCE. 2520 minus 607 = 1913. With no year zero it’s 2520 minus 606 = 1914. They picked a day for a year to fit the puzzle, based on Num 14:34. I’ll have to check my information but the year 1948 sticks with me as the date the WTB&TS governing body arrived at the conception of the “invisible presence” of Christ, and the beginning of His rule as King. o_O :D
     
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    Baruq

    Baruq Member

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    The fact is that the Bible speaks of several 70-year periods but most readers consider only one.
    The first period is that of Jeremiah 25:11, 12: "And all this land will be reduced to ruins and will become an object of horror, and these nations will have to serve the king of Babylon for 70 years. But when 70 years have been fulfilled, I will call to account the king of Babylon and that nation for their error,’ declares Jehovah, ‘and I will make the land of the Chaldeans a desolate wasteland for all time". This is Babylon's period of rule over Israel and the nations around it. (See verse 9) This 70-year period began in -609 and ended in -539, the date of the destruction of Babylon, as indicated by the prophecy. This is the first period of 70 years, and does not directly concern Israel. These dates are confirmed by astronomy, as Joshua pointed out. At the end of this period, Israel, which had been in captivity for 50 years, began to return to its country.
    There is a second 70-year period that directly concerns Israel. It is the one that started with the destruction of the temple. This is a period of spiritual desolation.The temple was destroyed and the people were deported to Babylon because they deliberately broke a Jubilee. This occurred on the 10th day of the 5th month of Nebuchadnezzar's 18th year according to Babylonian computation (Jr 52:12-13, 29). During that time, there would be no worship in the temple at Jerusalem.
    The twofold period of 70 years is confirmed by Daniel 9:1,2,17,18: "In the 1st year of Darius the son of Ahasuerus a descendant of the Medes (...) I, Daniel, discerned by the books the number of years mentioned in the word of Jehovah to Jeremiah the prophet to fulfill the desolation of Jerusalem, namely, 70 years (...) And now listen, O our God, to the prayer of your servant and to his entreaties, and cause your face to shine upon your sanctuary that is desolate (...) Incline your ear, O my God, and hear! Do open your eyes and see our desolate condition and the city that has been called by your name."
    So, one year after the destruction of Babylon, Daniel explained that the 70 years would also be the length of the desolation. The words "causing desolation (Dn 9:27)" was understood by the Jews as the disappearance of the sacrifices in the temple (and consequently of the worshippers) and not as the disappearance of the inhabitants. When we read "by reason of my house that is waste, while you are on the run, each one in behalf of his own house (Hg 1:1,9)", text written in Darius' 2nd year, that is on 520, we may understand also that the temple was waste of worshippers, not of people.
    The book of Zechariah (written between -520 / -518) indicates that the period of 70 years of desolation was still in progress. Verse 12 of the first chapter says: “O Jehovah of armies, how long will you withhold your mercy from Jerusalem and the cities of Judah, with whom you have been indignant these 70 years?” And verse 16 adds: “Therefore this is what Jehovah says: ‘“I will return to Jerusalem with mercy, and my own house will be built in her,” declares Jehovah of armies, “and a measuring line will be stretched out over Jerusalem.”’"
     
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    Abdiel7

    Abdiel7 New Member

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    Weeks of years the period that concluded 3.5 years after Jesus death. Harmonizing that with 607 being wrong was my interest. But you present an intriguing thought reading Isaiah and Jeremiah has suggested there might have be more than one fullfilment 70 year exile not that I've sorted that possibility out much yet.
     
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    Joshuastone7

    Joshuastone7 Administrator Staff Member

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    I apologies for my absence, I have had a series of challenges lately.

    To assist your understanding of the 70 weeks, I'll share a little more insight with you.

    Dan 9:27 "And he will keep the covenant in force for the many for one week;"

    The covenant that was held in place was that for the Messiah, the fulfillment of the one to return kingship to the line of David.

    "He" refers to Jehovah himself, and the week extended from our Lords baptism to Cornelius's baptism.

    The "many" were the Jewish people themselves. This is a common word used to describe the Israelites throughout the text.

    Dan 9:27b "and at the half of the week, he will cause sacrifice and gift offering to cease."

    The "sacrifices and gift offerings" that ceased were those at the temple. Once our Lord became the one sacrifice for all, the sacrifices at the temple were no longer needed.

    At the end of that week that covenant was extended to more then just the "many", it was extended to all mankind once Cornelius was baptized, fulfilling Peter's vision of the sheet coming down from heaven.

    It might assist as well keeping in mind a couple of other things. The text speaks of "weeks", which correlate with many of the other time periods mentioned in Daniel, such as 1260 days, 1290 and 1335 days. These 70 weeks as literally 490 days fit into these time periods.

    As well, once you realize there are two attacks on Gods people, you will understand there is a call to rebuild in between these two time periods. The 1290 days are the days between the constant feature coming down, until the disgusting thing stands in a holy place.
     
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    Abdiel7

    Abdiel7 New Member

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    Thank you for taking the time. I was inquiring about the dates as I was under the incorrect impression that if 607 was not the date of the destruction it would set the timeline of the 70 weeks off but I just researched it online and the weeks started with the call to rebuild jerusalem so there's no reason to hold to the 607 date for Jerusalem's destruction.
     
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    Joshuastone7

    Joshuastone7 Administrator Staff Member

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    Here is how I see the issue of the first fulfillment of the 70 weeks.

    Decree #1 by Cyrus was a permit to build the Temple (Ezra Chapter 1)

    Decree #2 by Darius was a permit to continue building the Temple

    Decree #3 by Artaxerxes was a permit to continue building the Temple (Ezra chapter 7)

    Decree #4 by Artaxerxes in the year 454 to restore and build Jerusalem (Neh. 2:5)

    It is the 4th decree that calls to rebuild Jerusalem, and the math looks like this;

    454 BC + 483 = 30 AD
     

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