Amos 7:1

Discussion in 'Bible Prophecy' started by john, Feb 25, 2014.

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    john

    john Member

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    Is anyone aware of the following:

    [(NWT) Amos 7:1This is what the Sovereign Lord Jehovah caused me to see, and, look! he was forming a [locust] swarm at the start of the coming up of the later sowing. And, look! it was the later sowing after the mown grass of the king.*

    Footnote
    Rbi8 Amos 7:1

    “And, look! one locust was Gog the king,â€￾ LXX. Compare Eze 38:2.]

    So is this how it would read in true context?

    [Amos 7:1This is what the Sovereign Lord Jehovah caused me to see, and, look! he was forming a [locust] swarm at the start of the coming up of the later sowing. And, look! one locust was Gog the king.2 And it occurred that when it (the locust swarm) had finished eating up the vegetation of the land, I proceeded to say: “O Sovereign Lord Jehovah, forgive, please. Who will rise up of Jacob? For he is small!â€￾]

    What is the origin of: “And, look! it was the later sowing after the mown grass of the king.â€￾
     
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    Utuna

    Utuna Administrator

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    Very interesting question.

    1) According to the way Hebrew is vocalized, one sentence may have several different meanings.

    2) In the LXX, the Greek text can be very different from the Masoretic one. At times, we don't know why.

    I'm going to make some research about it.
     
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    Joshuastone7

    Joshuastone7 Administrator Staff Member

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    Definitely an interesting question, I see where your going with this John.

    It seems obvious that in this scripture we find chronology in the mentioning of the kings grass that had been cut. It seems to fit the time of the end well. I as well need to do some more research.

    As well look forward to your commentary Utuna. :)
     
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    Utuna

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    You may have found a way to debunk the WT's interpretation of the book of Joel about the locusts ? ;)

    Please read here from page 120 onward and the same here, p. 202.

    Let's see if we can find other pearls... :p
     
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    Utuna

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    This one too is very interesting, from page 65 onward (a few pages are missing though, 66-67). There is enough to read anyway. I think that the missing pages aren't the same according to the users which means that if some pages are missing for you, just ask and someone may send you or post screenshots of them.

    I found nothing in my Bible footnotes and in my biblical encyclopedias about it. Many websites say that that interpretation given by the LXX is fanciful, many others say that it isn't to be discarded at all.

    A last one here, p.356.
     
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    Utuna

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    Source

    Amos_7:1

    Thus hath the Lord God showed unto me. By an inward illumination (comp. Amo_7:4, Amo_7:7; and Amo_8:1; Jer_24:1-3). He formed grasshoppers; rather, locusts (Nah_3:17). This points to the moral government of God, who uses nature to work his purposes, "wind and storm fulfilling his word." In the beginning of the shooting up of the latter growth; when the aftermath was beginning to grow under the influence of the latter rains. If the herbage was destroyed then, there would be no hope of recovery in the rest of the year. After the king's mowings. It is deduced from this expression that the first crop on certain grounds was taken for the king's use—a kind of royal perquisite, though there is no trace of such a custom found in Scripture, the passage in 1Ki_18:5, where Ahab sends Obadiah to search for pasture, having plainly nothing to do with it; and in this case, as Keil remarks, the plague would seem to fall upon the people only, and the guilty king would have escaped. But to interpret the expression entirely in a spiritual sense, with no substantial basis, as "Jehovah's judgments," destroys the harmony of the vision, ignoring its material aspect altogether. It is quite possible that the custom above mentioned did exist, though it was probably limited to certain lands, and did not apply to the whole pasturage of the country. It is here mentioned to define the time of the plague of locusts—the time, in fact, when its ravages would be most irremediable. The LXX; by a little change of letters, render, ἰδοὺ βροῦχος εἷς Γὼν ὁ βασιλεύς , by which they imply that the locusts would be as innumerable as the army of Gog. The whole version is, "Behold, a swarm of locusts coming from the East; and behold, one caterpillar, King Gog." The vision is thought to refer to the first invasion by the Assyrians, when Pul was bribed by Menahem to withdraw.
     
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    Utuna

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    Gog the Grasshopper King


    At Amos 7:1 in the Septuagint, we read about Gog the Grasshopper King, which is mentioned apparently in reference to the king of Assyria (who would attack the northern 10-tribe kingdom of IsraEl), or possibly in reference to the unseen force behind that great world power. For it says there: 'Then the Lord [came and] showed me {Look!} a breed of locusts that were coming early in the morning, led by Gog the grasshopper king.'

    In Greek he is described as, βρουχος εις γωγ ο βασιλευς or, grasshoppers they/are of Gog the king.

    This term isn't found in modern Hebrew text, which reads, 'This is what the Almighty LORD showed me: He was preparing swarms of locusts when the second crop was being harvested. It was the harvest that followed the harvest for the king' (GW).

    Which is correct? We simply don't know.
     
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    john

    john Member

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    Yes you know that I am BIG on wanting to debunk the WT’s interpretation of the book of Joel :) but right now what I am trying to find is, if these locust in Amos have a king, Gog, then is the king that the locust have over them (the angel of the abysss) in Rev chapter 9, also Gog. You know we have always felt that the star that John saw that HAD FALLEN from heaven to earth was Satan so therefore he would be the king/angel of the abyss. Amos’s account just might be another way to show that it is Satan.

     
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    Utuna

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    According to the books I quoted, many seem to connect the dots between them...

    I'm not sure about the falling star though. I'll have to read it all again tomorrow. I don't remember what was said in that regard.
     
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    Joshuastone7

    Joshuastone7 Administrator Staff Member

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    I knew why you brought it up John, and I'm glad you did. Don't worry I haven't forgot about you, I am working on your idea as well, and am coming up with some pretty neat connections. Will post when all together...
     
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    Joshuastone7

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    Okay, I want to start with the Vegetation.

    The account at Amos 7:2 reads; "When the swarm finished eating up the vegetation of the land"

    Now we read in verse three that this will not happen; “It will not happen,â€￾ Jehovah said." (Amos 7:3)

    We will now take a look at the account in Rev; "They were told not to harm the vegetation of the earth or any green plant or any tree." (Rev 9:4) So here we have the completion of Jehovah's promise that the vegetation would not be harmed after the fifth trumpet blows.

    Now what or who is this vegetation? We find that here; "How can Jacob survive?" (Amos 7:2b) Jacob is the vegetation. Jesus being the decedent of Jacob we have a representation of Israel itself, or said otherwise the remaining of those of Jesus's brothers along with those with them here on earth.

    Now, who is it that forms this swarm of locusts in Amos 7:1? It is the preceding individual mentioned in that of Jehovah. So we must understand at this point that it is Jehovah himself that forms the locusts. If we read at Joel 2:25 we find; "And I will make compensation to you for the years That the swarming locust, the unwinged locust, the voracious locust, and the devouring locust have eaten, My great army that I sent among you." So the locust army is Jehovah's.

    So then that begs the question, who is the king mentioned in Amos 7:1? It has to be Jehovah. Jehovah is the King of eternity and it's his army of locusts, as well his Israel (crop) that is cut when the (hay) constant feature is removed. Let's look back at Amos; "This was the later crop after the king’s hay had been cut." (Amos 7:1b) The kings hay in ancient Israel would have been cut to feed the kings horses. So what prophetic significance does this have? Well Jehovah's locusts are seen as in appearance of horses in Rev 9; "And in appearance the locusts resembled horses prepared for battle" (Rev 9:7) So what was cut that fed Jehovah's horses? That would be the constant feature that is destined to go down, in that of the WTS and its publications. (Dan 12:11) The hay would be the "food" from the Watchtower and publications that feed his people spiritually.

    Amos 7:1; "Look! He formed a locust swarm when the late crop was beginning to come up." To define this crop we can refer to Jesus parable of the wheat and weeds in Mat 13. Jehovah's people are seen as his crop of wheat with weeds sown in. Once the crop is cut then Israel will be sifted among the nations.

    What is this later crop that is beginning to come up? None other then Jehovah's people collecting back to him after the call to rebuild Jerusalem in the midst of the time of the end after the WTS goes down. End Timeline

    That means the King in Rev 9 that is over the locusts with the name of Apollyon must be Jehovah. The Locusts are from him, and they must be associated with the original Israel that was dispersed in the time of the end, and part of the new crop that comes up after.

    In chronology this all occurs the moment the fifth trumpet and bowl are released. This is the same moment Anglo-America goes down, and when the Eighth king rises from the abyss. Which leads us to the fallen star in Rev 9.

    Who is this star that is seen opening the abyss whom needed the key given to him? It's interesting Isa 14:12 reads;"How you have fallen from heaven, O shining one, son of the dawn. How you have been cut down to the earth, You who vanquished nations." Also we read at Luke 10:18; “I see Satan already fallen like lightning from heaven." So therefore it is quite likely since this is the moment that Anglo-America goes down and the Eighth king rises from the abyss, it is Satan himself that is given the key to the abyss in order to gather his army. "The wild beast that you saw was, but is not, and yet is about to ascend out of the abyss." (Rev 17:8) It is easy to assume that if this key had to be handed to this individual, that one would not continue with it for ever, but rather that this key could be taken back.

    These locusts would have a glaring outcry at this moment, for they would have had foreknowledge of exactly when Anglo-America was going down, being the first of the final three woes unto the earth. Seeing this event unfold at the exact time prophesied would bring an outcry from these locusts to the world that the time of the end is indeed upon them. While all along around them the worlds economic struggles will begin in full swing. What an occasion for those who obtain the mark of the beast to wail and gnaw themselves from their pain.
     
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    Utuna

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    If the king of the locusts in Joel is the Northerner, then it can't be Jehovah. It'll be the king whom God "chooses" to punish his people, that is Neb's counterpart, the Antichrist, Satan's henchman.
     
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    Joshuastone7

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    How do you get the king in Amos 7 is the Northerner in Joel 2:20?
     
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    Utuna

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    I read the books' excerpts before I posted them. Said otherwise, that's what the LXX implies.

    Besides, since when Gog is Jehovah ?
     
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    Joshuastone7

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    The LXX puts Gogs name in Amos 7:1, it does not apear there in the original text, nor in any other translation I am familiar with. The LXX is wrong.
     
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    john

    john Member

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    Josh when you state that the insects in Joel’s account are said to be Jehovah’s military force that is true but as Utuna pointed out:


    As an example of that consider this:

    Jeremiah 27:6 And now I myself have given all these lands into the hand of Neb·u·chad·nez´zar the king of Babylon, my servant; and even the wild beasts of the field I have given him to serve him.

    Also the insects/great military force in Joel is also known as the Northerner mentioned at Joel 2:20 and Jehovah does away with this Northerner/insects/great military force after it brings on the said calamity upon Jehovah’s people just like he did with Babylon.

    When you say Gog is in the LXX and it is wrong, how do we know it is wrong? Isn’t the LXX older than the Masoretic?
     
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    Joshuastone7

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    You two are missing something. Just because Jehovah gives his Israel over to the small horn has nothing to do with these locusts. The small horn comes against gods people well before the locusts come onto the scene. You are trying to connect two entities just because the scriptures say Jehovah uses them to do his will. Does not Jehovah use men as ourselves to accomplish his will? Does he not use men of the world, nations, the angels, Satan. Not wanting to seem to forward, but that is a very simplistic approach to connect the small horn and the locusts just because Jehovah uses them.

    In fact the Locusts and the small horn that comes against the constant feature are indeed two separate entities used by Jehovah. Chronology is the only way to determine what each event within it means. If you know what event comes before another you can determine what the locusts are, what the constant feature is, when Jesus is enthroned, when the disgusting thing stands in a holy place, and in fact the locusts come on the scene well after the constant feature is removed. The locust do not exist until many years after the the small horn destroys the constant feature. So there is no way they can be the same entity.

    Also, bunching Babylon in with the locusts is again a very simplistic interpretation that does not hold up to chronology. Babylon is actually destroyed before the small horn (the entity that destroys the constant feature) is destroyed at Armageddon. These two entities are not the same. Babylon is not the small horn as a whole, but simply one part of it.

    Joel 2:20 is not speaking of the locusts at all. There is nothing to say this scripture is talking about the locusts, it is however talking about the entity that comes against Israel, the small horn. Just bunching a few entities together will not fulfill the complete picture. You must dig deeper and determine if in fact they could be separate entities. One must discount all possibilities before your left with only the one last remaining. Babylon is only one part of the beast that comes against Gods people. It is part of the beast in Rev 13 and is represented by the lion. The rest of the beast turn against that entity and destroys her, the beast lives on for a little while after that point, so there are also other entities besides Babylon that exist along side her.

    One must understand there are two comings against Jehovah's people. And it all comes back to that first scripture that I've tried to share with everyone. That starting point in understanding chronology, Dan 12:11;

    Daniel 12:11 (CEB) | In Context | Whole Chapter

    "11 There will be one thousand two hundred ninety days from the time the daily sacrifice is stopped to the setting up of the desolating monstrosity."

    Daniel 12:11 (CEV)
    | In Context|Whole Chapter

    "11 There will be one thousand two hundred ninety days from the time that the daily sacrifices are stopped, until someone sets up the “Horrible Thing†that causes destruction."

    Daniel 12:11 (ERV) | In Context | Whole Chapter

    "11 “The daily sacrifice will be stopped. There will be 1290 days from that time until the time that the terrible thing that destroys is set up."

    Daniel 12:11 (EXB) | In Context | Whole Chapter

    "11 “The ·daily [regular] sacrifice [8:12] will be ·stopped [turned away]. Then, after 1,290 days from that time, ·a blasphemous object that brings destruction [L the abomination of desolation; 11:31] will be set up."

    Daniel 12:11 (NCV) | In Context | Whole Chapter

    "11 “The daily sacrifice will be stopped. Then, after 1,290 days from that time, a blasphemous object that brings destruction will be set up."

    These are two events separated by 1290 days. These two events do NOT occur on the same day. First the constant feature is removed, then 1290 days later the disgusting thing stands in a holy place. When you start with that simple understanding you can move on in chronology. The same thing as in 66CE when the sacrifices for the Roman people and Emperor were ceased at the temple, then 1290 days later the city was sacked. The Watchtower is announcing Jehovah's kingdom to the world, and it is that, that is destined to cease, then 1290 days later the disgusting thing stands in a holy place.

    You mention Jer 27:6, there is no connection with this scripture and Amos 7:1. The word "servant" does not appear in Amos nor Joel when it discusses the locusts. So what do you do, just connect the dots and say then Jesus and his brothers are also part of this group of northeners because they are also servants of Jehovah??? No, in no way is that a correct way to approach prophecy. Scripture must explain itself.

    It comes down to this. There are many moments in the time of the end that give us exact dates and times. All throughout Daniel we find the exact days between events, and when you overlay the holidays yet to be fulfilled they will give you an exact time when each of these events will occur however, there are simply many events. The moment the king of the North hurls denunciations. The moment the constant feature goes down, when the call to rebuild Jerusalem, Anglo-America goes down, the nations gathered together, Jesus is enthroned, dead raised, disgusting thing, Armageddon, the new world. How in the world can you know what the fifth trumpet and Amos 7:1 is talking about unless you know in what order all those events occur?

    No guys, the vegetation is Jehovah's people and the locusts are told not to harm them. You can't have paradoxes, or your wrong...
     
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    john

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    First thing that needs to be made clear is when speaking in regards to the book of Joel, the word “locust/s†should never be used alone. There are 4 types of insects mentioned in Joel and they are always mentioned together. They all as a whole make up what Jehovah refers to as his “great military forceâ€. Which brings me to why I mentioned Jer 27:6 as a example. What I meant was, Jehovah calling Nebuchadnezzar his servant is the same as what amounts to Jehovah calling the insects in Joel his “great military forceâ€. And YES for certain the insects/great military force is also known as the Northerner. This also can be liken to Nebuchadnezzar/Babylon in the sense that they are said to come from out of the north.

    [Insight Volume 1- COCKROACH
    The prophet Joel foretold a devastating onslaught by a horde of insects that would desolate the land, mentioning the cha·sil´ last, as the insect that consumes whatever has been left behind by the others. (Joe 1:4) Later, the prophet tells of the time when there will be blessings and forgiveness. The invader will be turned back and compensation made for what the cha·sil´ and the other members of God’s “great military force†have eaten. (Joe 2:25) With respect to such a divinely sent plague of insects, including the cha·sil´, Solomon prayed that Jehovah would forgive his people if they repented of their sins. (1Ki 8:37-40; 2Ch 6:28-31)]

    [Joel 2:25 And I will make compensation to YOU for the years that the locust, the creeping, unwinged locust, and the cockroach and the caterpillar have eaten, my great military force that I have sent among YOU.]

    [Highlights From the Books of Joel and Amos (‎1 occurrence)
    If they do, Jehovah will “show compassion upon his people†and will put far away “the northernerâ€â€”the insect assault. w07 10/1 pp. 12-15 - The Watchtower—2007]

    [Insight Volume 2- Israel invited to return to Jehovah; His spirit to be poured out (2:12-32)
    The inhabitants of Zion are invited to “come back†to Jehovah; he will restore their prosperity and protect them from “the northernerâ€]

    [Joel 2:20 (NWT) And the northerner* I shall put far away from upon YOU,
    *chirper(One who chirps…chirp - A short, high-pitched sound, such as made by an insect)
    (GNT) I will remove the insect army that came from the north
    (KJV) But I will remove far off from you the northern army,
    (MSG) I'll head off the final enemy coming out of the north
    (NCV) I will force the army from the north to leave your land
    (NIRV) I will drive far away from you the army that comes from the north.
    (ERV) No, I will force the people from the north to leave your land]

    [Ezekiel 38:15 And you (Gog) will certainly come from your place, from the remotest parts of the north, you and many peoples with you, all of them riding on horses, a great congregation, even a numerous military force.]

    [Jeremiah 27:6 And now I myself have given all these lands into the hand of Neb·u·chad·nez´zar the king of Babylon, my servant; and even the wild beasts of the field I have given him to serve him.]

    [10-1-02 WT For instance, the Bible tells us that Satan, in his role as “Gog of the land of Magog,†will make an all-out attack against Jehovah’s servants, mobilizing hordes that are described as “a numerous military force . . . , like clouds to cover the land.†(Ezekiel 38:2, 14-16)]

    [Joel 2:2 “There is a people numerous and mighty…[SUP]4[/SUP] “Its appearance is like the appearance of horses, and like steeds is the way they keep running. [SUP]5[/SUP] As with the sound of chariots on the tops of the mountains they keep skipping about, as with the sound of a flaming fire that is devouring stubble. It is like a mighty people; drawn up in battle order…[SUP]11[/SUP] And Jehovah himself will certainly give forth his voice before his military force, for his camp is very numerous.

    [Jeremiah 4:5Tell it in Judah, YOU men, and publish it even in Jerusalem, and say it out, and blow a horn throughout the land. Call out loudly and say: “Gather yourselves together, and let us enter into the fortified cities. [SUP]6[/SUP] Raise a signal toward Zion. Make provision for shelter. Do not stand still.†For there is a calamity that I am bringing in from the north, even a great crash. [SUP]7[/SUP] He has gone up as a lion out of his thicket, and the one who is bringing the nations to ruin has pulled away; he has gone forth from his place in order to render your land as an object of astonishment. Your own cities will fall in ruins so that there will be no inhabitant. [SUP]8[/SUP] On this account gird on sackcloth, YOU people. Beat YOUR breasts and howl, because the burning anger of Jehovah has not turned back from us.]

    [Joel 1:[SUP]5 [/SUP]“Wake up, YOU drunkards, and weep; and howl…[SUP] 8[/SUP] Wail, as a virgin girded with sackcloth…[SUP]13[/SUP] “Gird yourselves, and beat YOUR breasts, YOU priests. Howl, YOU ministers of the altar…[SUP] 14[/SUP] Sanctify a time of fasting. Call together a solemn assembly. Gather together [the] older men, all the inhabitants of the land, to the house of Jehovah YOUR God, and cry to Jehovah for aid.]

    [Jeremiah 1:14 At this Jehovah said to me: “Out of the north the calamity will be loosened against all the inhabitants of the land. [SUP]15[/SUP] For ‘here I am calling for all the families of the kingdoms of the north,’ is the utterance of Jehovah; ‘and they will certainly come and place each one his throne at the entrance of the gates of Jerusalem, and against all her walls round about and against all the cities of Judah. [SUP]16[/SUP] And I will speak with them my judgments over all their badness, in that they have left me and they keep making sacrificial smoke to other gods and bowing down to the works of their own hands.’]

    [Jeremiah 46:20 Egypt is as a very pretty heifer. From the north a mosquito* itself will certainly come against her…[SUP] 23[/SUP] They will certainly cut down her forest,’ is the utterance of Jehovah, ‘for it could not be penetrated. For they have become more numerous than the locust, and they are without number. [SUP]24[/SUP] The daughter of Egypt will certainly feel shame. She will actually be given into the hand of the people of the north.’

    *The Hebrew word rendered “mosquito†appears as a noun only at Jeremiah 46:20, where it is used to represent the Babylonians under Nebuchadnezzar, the enemy to the north that would come against Egypt, the “pretty heifer.â€]

    [Malachi 3:11 “And I will rebuke for YOU the devouring one*, and it will not ruin for YOU the fruit of the ground, nor will the vine in the field prove fruitless for YOU,†Jehovah of armies has said.

    * “the eater,†referring to an insect.]

    [Joel 2:25 And I will make compensation to YOU for the years that the locust, the creeping, unwinged locust, and the cockroach and the caterpillar have eaten, my great military force that I have sent among YOU.]


    [Joel 2:20 And the northerner I shall put far away from upon YOU, and I shall actually disperse him to a waterless land and desolated waste, with his face to the eastern sea and his rear section to the western sea. And the stink from him will certainly ascend, and the stench from him will keep ascending; for He will actually do a great thing in what He does.]

     
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    Utuna

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    I tend to agree with you. In the Bible, Gog isn't directly linked to the Northerner (who will punish and destroy the renegade Jerusalem) but to the final battle before Armaggedon (official teaching) or after the millemium (Rev20:8).

    Besides, the LXX doesn't say that Gog is the king of the locusts, it just says that Gog the king is one of them.

    Gog being mentioned here seems dubious to me.
     
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    Utuna

    Utuna Administrator

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    As there have been plenty of recensions of the LXX over the centuries, we can't said which is older. Personally, I take what I read in the LXX with a pinch of salt because of this and because many differences between both texts look more like interpolations or glosses than real translation.
     

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