Amos 7:1

Discussion in 'Bible Prophecy' started by john, Feb 25, 2014.

  1. 3,795
    709
    113
    Joshuastone7

    Joshuastone7 Administrator Staff Member

    Joined:
    Jan 26, 2013
    Messages:
    3,795
    Likes Received:
    709
    Trophy Points:
    113
    Gender:
    Male
    Home Page:

    Why wouldn't Rev 6:11 use a word that means death????

    (1 Thessalonians 4:13) Moreover, brothers, we do not want YOU to be ignorant concerning those who are sleeping [in death]; that YOU may not sorrow just as the rest also do who have no hope.

    koi-mä'-ō

    [TABLE]
    [TR]
    [TD="colspan: 2"]Vine's Expository Dictionary: View Entry[/TD]
    [/TR]
    [TR]
    [TD="colspan: 2"]Outline of Biblical Usage

    1. to cause to sleep, put to sleep
    2. metaph.
      1. to still, calm, quiet
      2. to fall asleep, to sleep
      3. to die
    [/TD]
    [/TR]
    [/TABLE]


    (John 11:13) Jesus had spoken, however, about his death. But they imagined he was speaking about taking rest in sleep.

    "hü'p-nos"

    Outline of Biblical Usage

    1. sleep


    (John 11:11) He said these things, and after this he said to them: “Laz´a·rus our friend has gone to rest, but I am journeying there to awaken him from sleep.â€

    koi-mä'-ō/rest

    [TABLE]
    [TR]
    [TD="colspan: 2"]Vine's Expository Dictionary: View Entry[/TD]
    [/TR]
    [TR]
    [TD="colspan: 2"]Outline of Biblical Usage

    1. to cause to sleep, put to sleep
    2. metaph.
      1. to still, calm, quiet
      2. to fall asleep, to sleep
      3. to die
    [/TD]
    [/TR]
    [/TABLE]

    [TABLE]
    [TR]
    [TD="colspan: 2"]eks-ü-pnē'-zō/sleep

    Vine's Expository Dictionary: View Entry
    TDNT Reference: 8:545,1233[/TD]
    [/TR]
    [TR]
    [TD="colspan: 2"]Outline of Biblical Usage

    1. to wake up, awaken out of a sleep
    [/TD]
    [/TR]
    [/TABLE]

    Why wouldn't Rev 6:11 use a word that means death????

    In fact the original word anapauō used in Rev 6:11 is never even used to denote sleep or death at all ever. Only a wakeful rest...
     
  2. 2,942
    315
    83
    Utuna

    Utuna Administrator

    Joined:
    Jan 28, 2013
    Messages:
    2,942
    Likes Received:
    315
    Trophy Points:
    83
    I don't know why you make things so complicated. That Greek word has different meanings and also means according to the context :

    Rev 6:11 CJB

    "Each of them was given a white robe; and they were told to wait a little longer, until the full number of their fellow-servants should be reached, of their brothers who would be killed, just as they had been."

    Even when the verb "to rest" is used, what this sentence says is easily understandable.

    Besides, please check what Greek word is used here and its context :

    Rev 14:13 CJB

    "Next I heard a voice from heaven saying, “Write: ‘How blessed are the dead who die united with the Lord, from now on!’ ‘Yes,’ says the Spirit, ‘now they may rest from their efforts, for the things they have accomplished follow along with them.’†"
     
  3. 3,795
    709
    113
    Joshuastone7

    Joshuastone7 Administrator Staff Member

    Joined:
    Jan 26, 2013
    Messages:
    3,795
    Likes Received:
    709
    Trophy Points:
    113
    Gender:
    Male
    Home Page:
    Rev 14:12,13; "Here is where it calls for endurance on the part of the holy ones, those who keep the commandments of God and hold fast to the faith of Jesus.†And I heard a voice out of heaven say, “Write: Happy are the dead who die in union with the Lord from this time onward. Yes, says the spirit, let them rest from their labors, for the things they did go right with them.â€

    If you notice the scripture you quoted is speaking of those who would die after Babylon falls that would be in union with the Lord. It says that even after these become "holy ones" they would die. This scripture in chronology is after that in Rev 6:11. This scripture says those who are sons of God that die after Babylon goes down would "rest" in the same way those who were to "rest" after being raised at Rev 6:11. They would die, then be resurrected and told to rest. The scripture at Rev 14:13 occurs after the dead are resurrected at Rev 6:11, and again it talks about sons of God that will be killed after the holy spirit is poured out and Jesus is enthroned.

    Once Jesus comes to reap, that is when they will be raised to heaven. Until then if they are killed between the moment Jesus is enthroned and Jesus comes to gather them they will be resurrected and told to "rest" or "wait" here on earth just like Jesus did after his resurrection. The "rest" at Rev 14:13 is still meant to be said to these after they have been resurrected. Then they are raised to heaven when Jesus reaps in the verses to follow.
     
  4. 413
    84
    28
    belongingtojah

    belongingtojah Member

    Joined:
    Mar 7, 2013
    Messages:
    413
    Likes Received:
    84
    Trophy Points:
    28
    How interesting,

    Never thought about the "rest" in that way.

    Joe
     
    Joshuastone7 likes this.
  5. 2,942
    315
    83
    Utuna

    Utuna Administrator

    Joined:
    Jan 28, 2013
    Messages:
    2,942
    Likes Received:
    315
    Trophy Points:
    83
    Josh,

    Sorry ! I won't have much free time in the days to come.

    I'll dedicate it to look for John's answer and we'll continue this discussion later.
     
  6. 2,942
    315
    83
    Utuna

    Utuna Administrator

    Joined:
    Jan 28, 2013
    Messages:
    2,942
    Likes Received:
    315
    Trophy Points:
    83
    Dear John,

    You may have noticed that in my explanations above, I distinguished between the locusts and the vast army. I just read again Robert's chapter about Joel and that very book in my different Bible versions so as to make sure of what I'm talking about. Many footnotes mention as tenable that alternative interpretation. I think that effectively, it is...

    Please compare Is.13 and Jr.51 with Joel :

    "Here I am arousing against them the Medes, who account silver itself as nothing and who, as respects gold, take no delight in it. And [their] bows will dash even young men to pieces. And the fruitage of the belly they will not pity; for sons their eye will not feel sorry. And Babylon, the decoration of kingdoms, the beauty of the pride of the Chal·de′ans, must become as when God overthrew Sod′om and Go·mor′rah." - Is.13:17-19

    "Commission against her a recruiting officer. Make the horses come up like bristly locusts. Sanctify against her the nations, the kings of Me′di·a, its governors and all its deputy rulers and all the land of each one’s dominion. And let the earth rock and be in severe pain, for against Babylon the thoughts of Jehovah have risen up to make the land of Babylon an object of astonishment, without an inhabitant." - Jr 51:27-29

    Edit : Please notice as well that the term locust is used for the Medes too...

    BUT :

    ==> "Its appearance is like the appearance of horses, and like steeds is the way they keep running." - Joel 2:4

    ==> "And the likenesses of the locusts resembled horses prepared for battle; and upon their heads [were] what seemed to be crowns like gold, and their faces [were] as men’s faces," - Rv 9:7

    The analogy with the locusts has limits and can't be used for one army only because the Medes are described as such in Jr 51, and the Babylonians as well in Joel (whereas the horses in the alternative interpretation of Joel designate the Medes only, as in Jr 51).

    I'll develop further my reasoning later.

    Sorry, I gotta go.
     
  7. 2,942
    315
    83
    Utuna

    Utuna Administrator

    Joined:
    Jan 28, 2013
    Messages:
    2,942
    Likes Received:
    315
    Trophy Points:
    83
    I've found the book of Joel according to the LXX with comments and footnotes.

    Here are some excerpts that I selected in connection with your questions :

    The prophecy of Joel begins with a huge agricultural disaster, which unites within one unique misfortune nature and mankind. In this book, the description of the invasion of insects followed by a drought is long-lasting and gradual, is impressive of realism and is marked by a noteworthy literary force. But Joel is also the evocation of a frequent biblical theme, YHWH's day, developped here in original ways and in all its extent. Whether it is really about true locusts interpreted by the prophet as a punishment of his people at YHWH's behest and causing a repentance on the part of the inhabitants of the land so as to stop the disaster that just took place, or whether it is a prophetic announcement of the incoming attack of enemy soldiers against Juda, of which YHWH will take advantage for revenge, or again a symbol of future judgment (eschatological or apocalyptic) of the nations to which will follow the salvation of YHWH's people, the prophet makes a clear connection between this natural disaster and the proclamation of YHWH's day. Far from not being related, the theme of the plague is a full-fledged aspect of the theme of YHWH's day : the invasion of insects inaugurates and fulfills the day in which YHWH will intervene in order to chastize his people, but is also a harbinger of YHWH's day, considered in its eschatological sense of judgment day.
     
  8. 3,795
    709
    113
    Joshuastone7

    Joshuastone7 Administrator Staff Member

    Joined:
    Jan 26, 2013
    Messages:
    3,795
    Likes Received:
    709
    Trophy Points:
    113
    Gender:
    Male
    Home Page:
    1 Th 4:16; "because the Lord himself will descend from heaven with a commanding call, with an archangel’s voice and with God’s trumpet, and those who are dead in union with Christ will rise first."

    Rev 14:1; "Then I saw, and look! the Lamb standing on Mount Zion, and with him 144,000."
    Rev 14:8; “She has fallen! Babylon the Great has fallen,"
    Rev 14:13; “Write: Happy are the dead who die in union with the Lord from this time onward."
     
  9. 2,942
    315
    83
    Utuna

    Utuna Administrator

    Joined:
    Jan 28, 2013
    Messages:
    2,942
    Likes Received:
    315
    Trophy Points:
    83
    LXX, introduction to the book of Joel, p. 28 :

    Caracterised by calamities or happiness, is the day of the Lord in Greek a part of historic or eschatological times ? The expression in the plural form "en tais hemerais ekeinas", "in those days" (2:29; 3:1) or the sentences in the singular form "en toi kairoi ekeinoi", "in that time" (3:1; see Zep. 3:20) or "en tei hemerai ekeinei", "in that day" (3:18; see Zep. 1:9, 10, 12; 3:11) are rather vague in Greek; like in the MT, they don't necessarily refer in themselves to the end of times, but maybe merely to what happens next. The description of the day may concern as well the present moment as the existing world.

    (...)

    ibidem, p. 35

    A few verses from Joel are present in the apostolic preaching speech and are so with a powerful value : Peter in Acts 2:17-21 quotes almost in its entirety the five verses of Joel 2:28-32 in relation with the downpour of the spirit - barring the second part of 2:32 - and in a text that is very similar to the text of the LXX, with a few variations excepted : "in the last days", en tais eskhatais hemerais, replaces the commonplace expression "afterwards/after this ; ....

    Footnote at Joel 2:28

    "Afterwards/After this", the words meta tauta indicate a mere transition and mean "thereafter", "then" ; Peter in Acts 2:17 understood those words in a temporal way similar to "in the last days", that is during Christ's coming.
     
  10. 3,795
    709
    113
    Joshuastone7

    Joshuastone7 Administrator Staff Member

    Joined:
    Jan 26, 2013
    Messages:
    3,795
    Likes Received:
    709
    Trophy Points:
    113
    Gender:
    Male
    Home Page:
    Utuna, could you please identify what post or scriptures you are directing this information toward?
     
  11. 2,942
    315
    83
    Utuna

    Utuna Administrator

    Joined:
    Jan 28, 2013
    Messages:
    2,942
    Likes Received:
    315
    Trophy Points:
    83
    I'm sorry. I had 30 mn free this afternoon before going to work and I took advantage of it to translate this short paragraph. I have tons of excerpts more to share, to translate, to comment, etc but have also only 24 hours a day... :( :)Those excerpts are more or less, more than less actually, related to the subject of this thread.
     
  12. 3,795
    709
    113
    Joshuastone7

    Joshuastone7 Administrator Staff Member

    Joined:
    Jan 26, 2013
    Messages:
    3,795
    Likes Received:
    709
    Trophy Points:
    113
    Gender:
    Male
    Home Page:
    I see, for a moment there I thought maybe you were posting a response to Rev 14:13. The invitation is still open for you to address that scriptures statement that those in union with Christ would die after Babylon falls... ;)
     
  13. 3,795
    709
    113
    Joshuastone7

    Joshuastone7 Administrator Staff Member

    Joined:
    Jan 26, 2013
    Messages:
    3,795
    Likes Received:
    709
    Trophy Points:
    113
    Gender:
    Male
    Home Page:
    "And a white robe was given to each of them, and they were told to rest a little while longer, until the number was filled of their fellow slaves and their brothers who were about to be killed as they had been." (Rev 6:11)

    "Another, a second angel, followed, saying: “She has fallen! Babylon the Great has fallen,"
    (Rev 14:8)

    "And I heard a voice out of heaven say, “Write: Happy are the dead who die in union with the Lord from this time onward. Yes, says the spirit, let them rest from their labors, for the things they did go right with them.â€￾ (Rev 14:13)

    "For this is what we tell you by Jehovah’s word, that we the living who survive to the presence of the Lord will in no way precede those who have fallen asleep in death; because the Lord himself will descend from heaven with a commanding call, with an archangel’s voice and with God’s trumpet, and those who are dead in union with Christ will rise first. Afterward we the living who are surviving will, together with them, be caught away in clouds to meet the Lord in the air; and thus we will always be with the Lord."
    (Cor 4:15-17)

    [​IMG]
     

Share This Page