Discussion in 'Bible Prophecy' started by john, Feb 25, 2014.
So your saying the Two Witnesses only witness 41 months, 27 days?
Those 3 days that the Two witnesses are dead can not be connected to the 42 months. They are physically three and a half days.
"Look! I tell YOU a sacred secret:We shall not all fall asleep [in death], but we shall all be changed, in a moment, in the twinkling of an eye, during the last trumpet. For the trumpet will sound, and the dead will be raised up incorruptible, and we shall be changed. For this which is corruptible must put on incorruption, and this which is mortal must put on immortality. But when [this which is corruptible puts on incorruption and] this which is mortal puts on immortality, then the saying will take place that is written: â€œDeath is swallowed up forever.â€ â€œDeath, where is your victory? Death, where is your sting?â€ The sting producing death is sin, but the power for sin is the Law. But thanks to God, for he gives us the victory through our Lord Jesus Christ!" - 1 Cor15:51-57
Who is the "we" that Paul is talking about ?
All of the anointed ones will be changed when the seventh trumpet is blown.
The part in bold will take place before the seventh trumpet is blown.
"â€œUntil when, Sovereign Lord holy and true, are you refraining from judging and avenging our blood upon those who dwell on the earth?â€" - Rv 6:10
Babylon hasn't fallen yet (Is.13:11), which will take place when Jesus comes in the clouds.
The we in 1Cor 15 is the same we as in 1Th... Look;
1 Cor 15:52; "Look! I tell you a sacred secret: We will not all fall asleep in death, but we will all be changed, in a moment, in the blink of an eye, during the last trumpet. For the trumpet will sound, and the dead will be raised up incorruptible, and we will be changed."1Th 4:17; " For this is what we tell you by Jehovahâ€™s word, that we the living who survive to the presence of the Lord will in no way precede those who have fallen asleep in death
1Th 4:15; "that we the living who survive to the presence of the Lord will in no way precede those who have fallen asleep in death;"
1Th 4:16; because the Lord himself will descend from heaven with a commanding call, with an archangelâ€™s voice and with Godâ€™s trumpet, and those who are dead in union with Christ will rise first.
1Th 4:17; "Afterward we the living who are surviving will, together with them, be caught away in clouds to meet the Lord in the air; and thus we will always be with the Lord"
The "we" are only those still living when Jesus is enthroned. The dead are not part of the "we"
Sorry brother, but you made a mistake here; (The word "then" is added)
1Cor 15:52 "during the last trumpet. For the trumpet will sound, and (then) the dead will be raised up incorruptible, and we will be changed."
I don't understand how you can ask such a question.
Even their death can be a testimony, especially given what will happen thereafter. Besides, the Gentile times last 42 months too and the Two Witnesses will keep being under the Babylonian yoke until they are raised up. That death will be the short-lived victory of Babylon over Christ's brothers. Only when they are raised up will the anointed ones be released from the 42 months long period (Rv13:5). Does it mean that the 42 months period of witnessing accomplished by the Two Witnesses start three days and a half earlier than the appointed time of the nations ? Come on !
Besides, you well know that I interpret their death in the light of :
"If anyone [is meant] for captivity, he goes away into captivity. If anyone will kill with the sword, he must be killed with the sword. Here is where it means the endurance and faith of the holy ones." - Rv13:10
"And they will certainly be made to stumble by sword and by flame, by captivity and by plundering, for [some] days." - Dn11:33
The three days and the half of death mean that they will have been defeated.
"And as soon as there will have been a finishing of the dashing of the power of the holy people to pieces, all these things will come to their finish.â€" - Dn 12:7
Of course they are !
We will not all fall asleep in death, but we will all be changed, in a moment, in the blink of an eye, during the last trumpet.
Let's rephrase it : We will all be changed, although not all of us will fall asleep in death.
That sentence is about all (of them). They'll all be changed. The dead will be raised up incorruptible and the living who have a mortal body will receive an immortal one.
I know how you see the Two Witnesses and it makes it difficult to have this conversation about them with you. But to tailor my comment to your thinking, The Two Witnesses prophecy for 42 months. Rev says that they are killed when they "finish" their witnessing. So this killing comes at the end of the 42 months, not the beginning.
"When they have finished their witnessing, the wild beast that ascends out of the abyss will wage war with them and conquer them and kill them"
"**See link on how many other translations use â€œthenâ€ instead of â€œafterâ€. It shows the word can be then, thereafter, after. But for arguments sake lets use â€œafterâ€. I am basing this because of it saying â€œat the same time with themâ€. Letâ€™s think about those boarding a plane. Although all will be on the plane at the same time and take off at the same time, it is common to hear a call for those in rows one thru whatever to board first (the dead) then/after, those in the rest of the rows (the living). If a day with the Lord is a 1,000 years and we are told not to let that one fact go unnoticed, then it seems that the day of the Lord is the 1,000 years. Since the chosen are to rule with Jesus for 1,000 years, it seems that when the first day of the 1,000 starts then it will start for all at the same time. "
Yes, it'll start at the same time for all. That's logical. Surely when the marriage of the Lamb takes place.
"After these things I heard what was as a loud voice of a great crowd in heaven. They said: â€œPraise Jah, YOU people! The salvation and the glory and the power belong to our God, because his judgments are true and righteous. For he has executed judgment upon the great harlot who corrupted the earth with her fornication, and he has avenged the blood of his slaves at her hand.â€ And right away for the second time they said: â€œPraise Jah, YOU people! And the smoke from her goes on ascending forever and ever.â€
And the twenty-four elders and the four living creatures fell down and worshiped God seated upon the throne, and said: â€œAmen! Praise Jah, YOU people!â€
Also, a voice issued forth from the throne and said: â€œBe praising our God, all YOU his slaves, who fear him, the small ones and the great.â€
And I heard what was as a voice of a great crowd and as a sound of many waters and as a sound of heavy thunders. They said: â€œPraise Jah, YOU people, because Jehovah our God, the Almighty, has begun to rule as king. Let us rejoice and be overjoyed, and let us give him the glory, because the marriage of the Lamb has arrived and his wife has prepared herself. Yes, it has been granted to her to be arrayed in bright, clean, fine linen, for the fine linen stands for the righteous acts of the holy ones.â€" - Rv 19:1-8
Furthermore, please read :
"Yes, I saw the souls of those executed with the ax for the witness they bore to Jesus and for speaking about God, and those who had worshiped neither the wild beast nor its image and who had not received the mark upon their forehead and upon their hand. And they came to life and ruled as kings with the Christ for a thousand years." - Rv20:4
Here, the souls of the dead are seen and shortly after, they come to life, which means that they receive an immortal body.
No, that isn't what we see brother. It's the dead that put on inscrutableness, not those still living, or the "we".
Let's start with what we do know. We agree at this point, that after Jesus is enthroned the world still goes on, and those dead who are raised experience what Jesus did after being resurrected, they are not yet raised to heaven just yet but raised from death immortal. It is also clear by the scriptures I quoted that these are not raised till "after" the last trumpet blows. Now it is also clear that some of those who are "changed" will still be killed. You cannot get around Rev 6; [FONT=Georgia, Times, Times New Roman, serif]"[/FONT]their brothers who were about to be killed" There is no way around it, "we" the living are only "changed". That word "changed" is not explained as incorruptible, only the dead who are raised are given that description.
You cannot intercede and put in "at the same time with them" because that doesn't happen the same time as the dead are raised. Your trying to say the "after" in "after the seventh trumpet blows" is the same time as the "at the same time with them gathered to Jesus." These two events happen at separate times. And most like are separated by 40 days, that's how long Jesus was on earth after being raised. (That is just a guess)
The seventh trumpet blows and then "after" the dead are raised. Therefore there's no way that the two witnesses can be killed at the beginning of the 42 months. That makes your chronology fall apart. The two witnesses are killed "After" their prophesying, after the 7th trumpet just like the prophecy says, and it's for 3 literal days. That is what it says...
You keep talking about inscrutableness... what's that ? What does it mean in that context ?
Inscrutableness : the quality or state of being impossible to know, understand, or explain
That isn't what YOU see.
Please read :
"And when he opened the fifth seal, I saw underneath the altar the souls of those slaughtered because of the word of God and because of the witness work that they used to have. And they cried with a loud voice, saying: â€œUntil when, Sovereign Lord holy and true, are you refraining from judging and avenging our blood upon those who dwell on the earth?â€ And a white robe was given to each of them; and they were told to rest a little while longer, until the number was filled also of their fellow slaves and their brothers who were about to be killed as they also had been." - Rv 6:9-11
The little while is between the fifth seal and the moment when the seventh trumpet is blown. There's plenty of time in-between for their brothers to be killed before the seventh trumpet is blown.
Yes that is an excellent catch. It is the souls that are seen and who cry out and who are given the robes and yet still have to come to life.
When the dead that are to be raised to Jesus in the clouds occurs they will be living and not referred to as souls. So at the point that they are crying out they are not already resurrected to the clouds and waiting for their brothers to be killed, they are still dead/souls waiting for their brothers to be killed so that the resurrection can occur. Obviously, this is symbolic and the souls are not really speaking at that time. In any case, it is clear that when they cry out and are waiting for their brothers to be killed it is before Jesus arrives.
Rest a little while longer is in reference to waiting a little longer before they will be resurrected.
So when Jehovah says those are raised after the seven trumpet you are to ignore it huh? As well, are you saying because Paul saw the souls under the alter they should not be understood? Paul sees visions of Jehovah, do we understand him?
And I've asked you to explain why the two witnesses are killed after the 42 months....
Oh, so people who don't exist are given their white robes before they are even alive... Hmmm
As well, now we're separating peoples souls from their life essence? Sounds like Christendom and life after death... Wow
Yes, this discussion has arrived to an interesting clarification :
"Later on Jehovah said to Cain: â€œWhere is Abel your brother?â€ and he said: â€œI do not know. Am I my brotherâ€™s guardian?â€ At this he said: â€œWhat have you done? Listen! Your brotherâ€™s blood is crying out to me from the ground." - Gn 4:9-10
What remains to be seen is why this sentence is uttered, if we consider the context...
Uh ? Nobody told you ?
Why do they talk to them and why do said souls cry out if they aren't alive ?
Separate names with a comma.