Amos 7:1

Discussion in 'Bible Prophecy' started by john, Feb 25, 2014.

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    Joshuastone7

    Joshuastone7 Administrator Staff Member

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    I knew you were going to say that. I would have, if it weren't for the fact that Adam and Eve "became a living soul" Blood is simply the life within the soul. Blood was poured out for the soul.
     
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    Utuna

    Utuna Administrator

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    Who said that they will be raised up before the seventh trumpet is blown ?

    Why Paul ?
     
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    Utuna

    Utuna Administrator

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    I said it jockingly in the light of what I had just written to John about Abel. See the smiley... ;)

    Sorry for not having not been clear enough.
     
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    Joshuastone7

    Joshuastone7 Administrator Staff Member

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    I think John thought you were serious, he ran with the idea...
     
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    Joshuastone7

    Joshuastone7 Administrator Staff Member

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    You said it in post #144, but I see now that you were trying to say that this was before the 7th trumpet and these aren't really raised at this point, but in fact they are living souls at the fifth seal, and yes they are given white robes and raised in the fifth seal.
     
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    john

    john Member

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    If it states that souls are seen and then refers to them as coming to life, that would indicate that the souls were not alive/living when they were said to have been seen. Also again, the fact that the souls are told to “rest a little while longerâ€￾ indicates that they are not alive/living at that time.

    Daniel 12:13“And as for you yourself, go toward the end; and you will rest, but you will stand up for your lot at the end of the days.â€￾

    (John 11:11) He said these things, and after this he said to them: “Laz´a·rus our friend has gone to rest, but I am journeying there to awaken him from sleep.â€￾

    (John 11:13) Jesus had spoken, however, about his death. But they imagined he was speaking about taking rest in sleep.

    (1 Thessalonians 4:13) Moreover, brothers, we do not want YOU to be ignorant concerning those who are sleeping [in death]; that YOU may not sorrow just as the rest also do who have no hope.

    https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=0eCv0bXFppc

    3:00 to 3:30
     
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    Utuna

    Utuna Administrator

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    Don't ask me what it means, I ain't no clue ! :p

    "...in general assembly, and the congregation of the firstborn who have been enrolled in the heavens, and God the Judge of all, and the spiritual lives of righteous ones who have been made perfect,"

    One thing is sure, they are distinguished from the congregation of the firstborn...

    Are they those who make up the GC ...?
     
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    Joshuastone7

    Joshuastone7 Administrator Staff Member

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    The word "rest" cannot be used to connect prophecy in scripture, to many people rested in the Bible for many reasons. Souls are living creatures.

    I don't understand why it's so hard for everyone to imagine that possibly the dead in Christ could be raised and the "we" still on the earth could still be killed before Jesus comes to collect them all together. If that's what it says, that's what it says.
     
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    Joshuastone7

    Joshuastone7 Administrator Staff Member

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    That isn't going to work, because then you have the great crowd and humans being raised at the fifth seal. That certainly doesn't make sense.
     
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    Utuna

    Utuna Administrator

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    Sorry but I don't understand what you're talking about and why you're talking about it. :confused:
     
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    Joshuastone7

    Joshuastone7 Administrator Staff Member

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    I thought you were talking about the fifth seal with the comment above, "Are they those who make up the GC ...?" but with your confusion I suppose you were talking about "and the spiritual lives of righteous ones who have been made perfect,"
     
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    Utuna

    Utuna Administrator

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    Yes, I was talking about resting/symbolic souls or what might be akin to them, like "spiritual lives".
     
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    Joshuastone7

    Joshuastone7 Administrator Staff Member

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    Phew! Is this like one of those intermissions? You two are are some power houses, I like that... We at times get a little frazzled because we are so very passionate about this subject, and it's the sacred secret that's been laying here for so long that we three want to know. We want to have Jehovah's mind. We never want to impose our own understanding but we always strive for his truth, his word, his Spirit. That of course is the goal, never wanting at any moment to impose our own understanding.

    I do appreciate this interchange, I have learned a few things. I liked how Utuna pointed out that the first to be raised from the dead are probably still here on earth, like Jesus was. That's why later the living will be caught away with them to Jesus. I hadn't thought about their rest being here on earth, and it appears to be that way, and in fact that may helped me to start thinking about another thread I'll start at some point.

    With that said, I tell ya, I don't know about you but, it's been hard to focus on anything else in the last few days...lol I'm working somehow, but it's been taking a second place... And really, this is all about what serving Jehovah is, making his worship first. We brothers sharpen each other. And I'm sure about one thing, there is enough faith on this forum to move allot of mountains!

    Ok, I guess that was just some half time entertainment... :cool:
     
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    Joshuastone7

    Joshuastone7 Administrator Staff Member

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    That might be an alright thought, but you still have a paradox. Jesus is seen with his crown at the first seal. But then you also have Jesus being enthroned at the 7th trumpet, and we know this happens at the end of the 42 months. So first off you can't have the dead in Christ raised before Jesus is enthroned. Second, the two witnesses are killed after their witnessing is over.

    I'm going to just throw out a bomb, just because you brought it up. I know every time I do this, I get this: :eek: lol

    These scriptures below all happen on that last day of the 42 months. The first six trumpets and bowls happen first and together. Then the 7th trumpet 7th bowl and the first 6 seals all occur on that one day.

    Rev 11:15; "The seventh angel blew his trumpet. And there were loud voices in heaven, saying: “The kingdom of the world has become the Kingdom of our Lord and of his Christ, and he will rule as king forever and ever." 11:19 "And the temple sanctuary of God in heaven was opened, and the ark of his covenant was seen in his temple sanctuary. And there were flashes of lightning and voices and thunders and an earthquake and a great hail."

    16:17-21; "The seventh one poured out his bowl on the air. At this a loud voice came out of the sanctuary from the throne, saying: “It has come to pass!â€￾ And there were flashes of lightning and voices and thunders, and there was a great earthquake unlike any that had occurred since men came to be on the earth, so extensive and so great was the earthquake. The great city split into three parts, and the cities of the nations fell; and Babylon the Great was remembered before God, to give her the cup of the wine of the fury of his wrath. Also, every island fled, and mountains were not found. Then great hailstones, each about the weight of a talent, fell from heaven on the people,and the people blasphemed God because of the plague of hail, for the plague was unusually great.

    6:12-14; "And I saw when he opened the sixth seal, and a great earthquake occurred; and the sun became black as sackcloth made of hair, and the entire moon became as blood, and the stars of heaven fell to the earth as when a fig tree shaken by a high wind drops its unripe figs. And the heaven departed as a scroll that is being rolled up, and every mountain and every island was removed from its place."
     
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    Joshuastone7

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    I thought I would just touch base on this again. This is the fifth seal. In the first seal we see Jesus crowned, so by this time he has been enthroned. This is the moment the dead in Christ are raised, so there's no reason for the ones at the fifth seal to stay dead. Now, Paul "saw" the souls. There's just no way around that one. We know for sure that a soul is a living entity. All throughout scripture souls are living. Able's blood was the life force in the soul, and blood was poured out for the soul, so Paul no doubt saw living souls. Jehovah said he heard Able's blood crying out to him, he could have said the same thing here, but he didn't.

    Okay, so then they are handed "white robes". Now if someone tries to say they are still not alive even after Paul saw them alive, you get to the white robes. Why would the dead be given the robes? They already will be resurrected to heaven, they don't need any more symbol to tell us that. There is no reason to say this if they are not alive. It's because this is them being raised immortal.

    So then if I were to take your thinking further, then you would have to think that these are raised when their brothers are killed right? Well, here comes those paradoxes again. When are their brothers killed? The two witnesses are killed at the "end" of their witnessing, not the beginning. And we also know Jesus isn't enthroned at the beginning of the 42 months, but after. So here we are again back to the end of the 42 months when this vision Paul has of the souls under the alter.

    This scripture really is pretty simple, it says what it says. When you come to see what Daniel chapter 12 says, you will see that there are 30 days that continue after the 42 months end. That's when the Disgusting Thing is placed. There are still 45 days more before the first day of the New World. All of these paradoxes go away. One single paradox and a whole idea of chronology is wrong. I'm sure you believe as me, and I have always known, that there is no paradoxes in scripture. All the chronology within it fits perfect within itself.
     
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    Utuna

    Utuna Administrator

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    Talk about dropping bombs...!!! lol

    [​IMG]

    And who is that Paul you keep talking about ?

    Are you sure that it is the Bible that you read ? :p
     
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    Joshuastone7

    Joshuastone7 Administrator Staff Member

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    Yea, I meant John... :p
     
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    Utuna

    Utuna Administrator

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    I know, I was kidding you.... :p
     
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    Joshuastone7

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    Okay guys, here you go...

    Rev 6:11; "And a white robe was given to each of them, and they were told to rest a little while longer, until the number was filled of their fellow slaves and their brothers who were about to be killed as they had been."

    The original Greek word used here is "anapauō". Now let's look at it's definition taken from the Greek Lexicon;

    Outline of Biblical Usage

    1. to cause or permit one to cease from any movement or labor in order to recover and collect his strength
    2. to give rest, refresh, to give one's self rest, take rest
    3. to keep quiet, of calm and patient expectation

    Now let's look at where this word occurs in the original Greek.

    Strong's Number G373 matches the Greek ἀναπαύω (anapauō),
    which occurs 13 times in 12 verses in the Greek concordance of the KJV

    [TABLE]
    [TR]
    [TD][/TD]
    [TD][​IMG] Mat 11:28[/TD]
    [TD]Come unto me, all ye that labour and are heavy laden, and I will give G373you rest. G373[/TD]
    [/TR]
    [TR]
    [TD][/TD]
    [TD][​IMG] Mat 26:45[/TD]
    [TD]Then cometh he to his disciples, and saith unto them, Sleep on now, and take your rest: G373 behold, the hour is at hand, and the Son of man is betrayed into the hands of sinners.[/TD]
    [/TR]
    [TR]
    [TD][/TD]
    [TD][​IMG] Mar 6:31[/TD]
    [TD]And he said unto them, Come ye yourselves apart into a desert place, and rest G373 a while: for there were many coming and going, and they had no leisure so much as to eat.[/TD]
    [/TR]
    [TR]
    [TD][/TD]
    [TD][​IMG] Mar 14:41[/TD]
    [TD]And he cometh the third time, and saith unto them, Sleep on now, and take your rest: G373 it is enough, the hour is come; behold, the Son of man is betrayed into the hands of sinners.[/TD]
    [/TR]
    [TR]
    [TD][/TD]
    [TD][​IMG] Luk 12:19[/TD]
    [TD]And I will say to my soul, Soul, thou hast much goods laid up for many years; take thine ease, G373 eat, drink, and be merry.[/TD]
    [/TR]
    [TR]
    [TD][/TD]
    [TD][​IMG] 1Cr 16:18[/TD]
    [TD]For they have refreshed G373 my spirit and yours: therefore acknowledge ye them that are such.[/TD]
    [/TR]
    [TR]
    [TD][/TD]
    [TD][​IMG] 2Cr 7:13[/TD]
    [TD]Therefore we were comforted in your comfort: yea, and exceedingly the more joyed we for the joy of Titus, because his spirit was refreshed G373by you all.[/TD]
    [/TR]
    [TR]
    [TD][/TD]
    [TD][​IMG] Phm 1:7[/TD]
    [TD]For we have great joy and consolation in thy love, because the bowels of the saints are refreshed G373 by thee, brother.[/TD]
    [/TR]
    [TR]
    [TD][/TD]
    [TD][​IMG] Phm 1:20[/TD]
    [TD]Yea, brother, let me have joy of thee in the Lord: refresh G373 my bowels in the Lord.[/TD]
    [/TR]
    [TR]
    [TD][/TD]
    [TD][​IMG] 1Pe 4:14[/TD]
    [TD]If ye be reproached for the name of Christ, happy are ye; for the spirit of glory and of God resteth G373 upon you: on their part he is evil spoken of, but on your part he is glorified.[/TD]
    [/TR]
    [TR]
    [TD][/TD]
    [TD][​IMG] Rev 6:11[/TD]
    [TD]And white robes were given unto every one of them; and it was said unto them, that they should rest G373 yet for a little season, until their fellowservants also and their brethren, that should be killed as they were, should be fulfilled.[/TD]
    [/TR]
    [TR]
    [TD][/TD]
    [TD][​IMG] Rev 14:13[/TD]
    [TD]And I heard a voice from heaven saying unto me, Write, Blessed are the dead which die in the Lord from henceforth: Yea, saith the Spirit, that they may rest G373 from their labours; and their works do follow them.[/TD]
    [/TR]
    [/TABLE]

    With all the given information it is clear that Rev 6:11 is in no way speaking of any dead. No where else in scripture is this word anapauō used to denote anyone who is dead. Therefore the context of which it is used and the intended meaning of the word "rest" is to apply to any of the following definitions, all meaning alive;

    1. to cause or permit one to cease from any movement or labor in order to recover and collect his strength

    2. to give rest, refresh, to give one's self rest, take rest

    3. to keep quiet, of calm and patient expectation
     
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    Utuna

    Utuna Administrator

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    I agree with you ! excepted that Rv20:4 is talking about being living in God's eyes, having eternal life. Please compare with what is said later on in verse 5 about the rest of the dead...
     

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