Are we already experiencing the final foretold "Great Tribulation"?

Discussion in 'General Discussions' started by Get out of her, Apr 2, 2022.

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    Get out of her New Member

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    After devoting some prayerful consideration to what particular Bible topic I would now like to consider with my dear brothers and sisters, I settled on this one since I feel compelled to recognize it as likely the timeliest. This is in view of the fact we now find ourselves in the year 2022 or otherwise the one I have been pointing to for several years now as extremely significant in Bible prophecy. The details on this will be furnished at the end of this discussion for any and all who are completely unfamiliar with my many posts on other websites.

    This will be a relatively lengthy and in depth consideration of this topic, and I will be demonstrating throughout this discussion with the scriptures that it was NEVER a question of whether or not the world of mankind would experience what is referred to in the Bible with terms like a "great tribulation," or even more specifically the one Jesus foretold in 33 or so CE to be unlike anything the earth had ever experienced before and would never again. (Mt 24:21, 22) Particularly in view of all the conflicting and confusing teachings on the subject that have been spewing out of ALL organized religion for many years now ultimately on ALL Bible topics, if anything the question or even QUESTIONS on this specific issue would be this:


    How do the SCRIPTURES actually define this phenomenon?

    HOW MANY of these events do the scriptures ultimately point to?

    What exactly would CAUSE or TRIGGER such an event?

    What is the end RESULT of a "great tribulation," or otherwise God's OBJECTIVE in bringing one upon mankind?


    I'd like to assure everyone in advance that upon a much more PRAYERFUL and SCRIPTURAL analysis of these four questions, we will soon find ourselves confronting the ANSWER to a FIFTH one on this topic. This is namely the question posed by the title of this thread:

    Are we ALREADY experiencing the FINAL FORETOLD "great tribulation"?

    I would encourage all my dear brothers and sisters to prayerfully ponder ALL these questions: Nevertheless beginning with my next post (Jehovah willing) we will begin considering them STRICTLY from a scriptural perspective, completely devoid of any extra biblical materials/literature or mere religious dogma.


    Agape love;

    Sol
     
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    Get out of her New Member

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    To begin with, right here in these same accounts like Matthew 24 and Luke 21 that seemingly ALL the religious leaders of organized "Christianity" most often point to when addressing the topic of the "great tribulation," we ALREADY find two or three rather glaring clues which upon just a bit more prayerful contemplation should begin helping us to understand that we have NEVER been taught the truth on this subject. This is not to mention several SMALLER indications. What are these exactly?


    Well even if we personally CONTINUE to utterly fail in factoring in that this entire "Sermon on the Mount" was prompted by Jesus' comment about yet another impending destruction of Jehovah's "temple" and in fact MORE THAN ONE of them in view of things like John's words at John 2:19-21 ALONE, and even if we altogether OVERLOOKED that even in the case of the LITERAL or MATERIAL temples of FLESHLY Israel there had already been at least TWO of these events even PRIOR to the time of this sermon, we nonetheless still find ourselves dealing with a kind of safety net here that should prevent us from being misled. What is this?


    When Jesus introduced this term "great tribulation" into his Sermon on the Mount, he did NOT do so in the SINGULAR sense. In fact we quickly find him comparing it to yet ANOTHER extremely trialsome event mankind experienced at the time of ancient Noah. (Mt 24:1-3, 21, 38) Furthermore the precise way these same words of Jesus were rendered in the koine Greek found in Mark's account prompted translators to render this as "A tribulation" as opposed to something like "great tribulation" or THE "great tribulation," and Luke's account is rendered simply as "great necessity upon the land and wrath on this people." (Mr 13:19) (Lu 21:23) Had not an "apostate" version of Jehovah's nation ALREADY experienced these things even SEVERAL times PRIOR to this "sermon on the Mount? (Isa 10:6)


    The point here is that from the word –go, while it should be clear that Jesus was ultimately focusing our attention primarily on the FINAL foretold "great tribulation," the fact ALONE that there would ultimately be TWO temples that would suffer destruction during the first century ALONE and in some sense even THREE if we factor in accounts like John 2:19 should already begin helping us to understand that a foretold ongoing CYCLE of events is ultimately being addressed here this "sermon on the mount." Yes scriptures such as 1 Corinthians 3:16, 17 and the fact that the Apostle John openly announced what is being considered here as tragically unfolding around 98 or so CE should help us to understand that Jesus was actually not speaking simply of himself alone in accounts like John 2:19-21. But why might it be rather important that we begin thinking much more in terms of an ongoing cycle of events in connection with the concept of a "great tribulation," or what Jesus himself referred to on one occasion as a "CIRCUIT of the cities of Israel" and the ancient Joshua as "marches AROUND" a city by the name of Jericho? (Mt 10:23) (Jos 6:3-5)


    As I will continue to demonstrate throughout the course of this discussion with the scriptures, this is first of all because it will prove a VERY key step in DRAMATICALLY altering our understanding of this scriptural term—"great tribulation." If anything the REAL question here would be—why might it be so important for us not to REMAIN blinded by the "teachings and commands of MEN as doctrine" ALSO when it comes to the topic of the "great tribulation"?


    The fact is the MOMENT we begin thinking more in terms of a foretold ongoing CYCLE of events in connection with this "great tribulation" or what the prophet Ezekiel identified as a kind of "wheelwork" and Daniel referred to as "times," (Eze 10:13) (Da 4:23, 32) we would in turn be MUCH more likely to recall things like the fact that this very same phenomenon was ALSO described or identified in the scriptures with terms like the following:


    "The PANGS OF DISTRESS upon a pregnant woman." (2 Th 3:1-5)

    "The BREAKDOWN of the DAUGHTER of my people." (Jer 8:11)

    "SEVEN births of the barren woman." (Jer 15:9) (1 Sa 2:5)

    "SEVEN strikings or chastisings of the shepherd." (Le 26:18, 23-25) (Mt 26:31)

    "SEVEN plantings and harvests." (Ge 41:22-24) (1 Cor 15:23) (Re 20:6)

    "SEVEN baptisms" or even "FIERY" spiritual cleansings and rebirths of a kind of FOREIGN magistrate or "chieftain." (2 Ki 5:1, 10, 14) (Mt 3:11) (Mal 3:2, 3)


    We obviously have not even BEGUN to genuinely dig into what is actually being conveyed in the symbolic spiritual language we are considering here in these accounts, not to mention what will be revealed even further by means of their reference scriptures. But already I would suggest that a serious consideration of these passages ALONE should prompt us at the very least to prayerfully ponder the following questions in connection with the "great tribulation":


    If we merely came to the realization at some point that there has ALREADY been AT LEAST "seven" of these "great tribulations" on the earth in connection with Jehovah's nation throughout the course of its history, have we not already found ourselves in a much better position to genuinely grasp what ones like Jesus are actually speaking of in accounts like Mathew 24:21? And despite the fact that the SEVENTH one would ultimately prove so intense that it could be represented or illustrated as like "SEVEN marches around" a "great city" with a kind of "harlot" in COMPARISON to the previous six, by simply considering exactly how the all the PREVIOUS ones have ALREADY unfolded before us on the earth, do we now really even continue to feel the NEED for some so called "religious leader" or "Pastor" to TELL us what is being conveyed with scriptural terms like- " the pangs of distress upon a pregnant woman"? (Re 3:10 8:1 17:18) (Jos 2:1 6:4) (Isa 1:21) (1 Th 3:1-5)


    I would respectfully and lovingly ask my dear brothers and sisters to prayerfully contemplate these scriptures and questions, and Jehovah willing my intention is to pick up the discussion with them beginning with my next post.


    Agape love;

    Sol
     
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    Joshuastone7

    Joshuastone7 Administrator Staff Member

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    Why don't you take direction and criticism? Your writing is mind-numbingly monotonous. Therefore even skimming through what you wrote is a chore. You are not looking to have conversations on here; you are looking to teach. I'm going to have to offer a more stern suggestion. We like to openly debate Scripture on this forum, and no one is here to teach. Can you adjust your intentions to meet ours?

    I don't understand why you can't just get to the points without all the fluff.
     
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    Get out of her

    Get out of her New Member

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    Hello again brother Joshua:

    As I have demonstrated several times already, I am more than happy to address any and all questions, comments and even objections that my dear brothers and sisters have to offer. Where I draw the line or should I say where JEHOVAH draws the line is at mere arguing and fighting. (Tit 3:9) (2 Ti 2:24) I'm well aware that many people recognize perhaps even the majority of my posts as rather cumbersome to go over. I'm sure you are well aware however that everyone in including yourself is more than free to disregard them altogether if they believe that reading through them is not worth the time and effort involved. In my case at least I am not giving anyone (as you say) "stern suggestions" one way or the other on at least this issue if any at all. With that in mind, particularly since you have admitted to giving "direction" here, I would like to respectfully pose some questions or comments of my own for you to consider:

    I'm hoping you could at least attempt to understand or appreciate why I am once again finding some of your comments as rather contradictory if not even confusing. First of all while I will admit that I have not read over a great volume of your material, based on what I have already seen it seems rather clear to me that you are indeed presenting yourself as a Bible teacher. In your above post you have also made it clear you recognize me as someone who is "looking to teach" and If anything the fact is that "looking" to do so would be an understatement in my case. But particularly since you seem even more quick than myself to give "direction" and even "stern suggestions," can you appreciate why it would seem rather contradictory to me that you at the same time would tell me something like --"no one is here to teach"?

    If things you are saying here are appearing as contradictory to me, I would tend to assume the same is true for at least a few others here as well. So could you please perhaps give some prayerful consideration to this and then get back to us on the issue of whether or not you recognize yourself as a genuine theocratically appointed Bible teacher or what the scriptures also refer to as a prophet? If you actually ARE a Bible teacher, why would you deny it? And if you are not, why would you endeavor to correct others on what they have to share from the scriptures while at the same time offering (as you say) "stern suggestions" and "direction"?

    Agape love;

    Sol
     
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    Get out of her New Member

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    In scriptural accounts like Matthew 3:11 we find that these "seven" foretold "strikings of the shepherd" were also referred to as "baptisms of holy spirit and FIRE," and particularly since the spiritual deaths that create the NEED for these rebirths disqualify people as belonging to Jehovah, rest assured it is no coincidence that these very testing and trialsome spiritual cleansings and rebirths THEMSELVES were prophetically pictured as being inflicted upon something like a prideful Babylonian king or a leprous Syrian army chief. It would be as if this rather stricken and yet still rather prideful entity would ultimately need to experience "plunges into the Jordan River" precisely "SEVEN TIMES." (Mt 3:11 26:31) (Mal 3:2, 3) (Da 4:23, 30, 32) (2 Ki 5:1, 10, 14) Would prophetic dramas such as the one in Exodus of the splashing of the blood of the sacrificial lamb on the doorposts in connection with the death of the firstborn EGYPTIANS perhaps seem to suddenly take on much more meaning to us already? (Mt 2:15) (Re 11:8)


    Yes the great spiritual awakening we are considering on the part of King Nebuchadnezzar there in Daniel Chapter four after "seven times had passed over him" is simply among a seemingly endless stream of various ways the scriptures have symbolically represented the VERY SAME PHENOMENON found also in accounts like 2 King Chapter 5 or for that matter ones such as at Romans 11:25, 26 which are in fact DIRECT REFERENCES to this same scriptural phenomenon:


    "For I do not want you to be ignorant brothers of this sacred secret, in order for you not to be discreet in your own eyes: that a dulling of sensibilities has happened in part to Israel, until the full number of people of the nations comes in, and in this manner all Israel will be saved, and as it is written: "The deliverer will come out of Zion and turn away ungodly practices out of Jacob." (Ro 11:25, 26)


    Did we just now fail to grasp the SETTING we are considering here with these words of the Apostle Paul, and therefore the rather staggering IMPLICATIONS of them?! These books and letters found in the New Testament were always written to fellow spiritual SHEPHERDS of the ones doing this writing! The time frame here was around the year 56 CE or otherwise during the period when mankind was experiencing the FIFTH of the "seven" foretold "births" of Jehovah's nation that would unfold in the time frame identified as the "appointed times of the nations." (Col 1:13) (Jer 15:9) (Lu 21:24)


    If even the APOSTLES that existed during the greater portion of the first century would be experiencing a "dullness" of spiritual "sensibilities" in comparison to the theocratic shepherds of the Millennial Reign, or (as Paul says) -"the last trumpet," what would this imply with regard to the spiritual "sensibilities" of the completely "devastated" anointed "virgins" and "widows" that are currently anticipating the FINAL foretold birth of the kingdom! You see the "kingdom of the son of his love" was in FULL SWING in the year 56 CE! (Da 12:3) (Col 1:13) (Eze 38:8) (La 1:1, 4) (Isa 1:21)


    In other words, in comparison to what ones like the prophet Daniel foretold in connection with the theocratic shepherds of the Millennial Reign who would "shine like the brightness of the expanse,… like the stars to time indefinite," even in the case of the Christian Congregation of the first century that we are always championing in our discussions it would be almost as if no spiritual cleansing and rebirth of Jehovah's nation had occurred AT ALL! (Da 12:1-3) (1 Cor 15:51-53) It would be as if the spiritual "leprosy" of this figurative Syrian army chief was not actually cleansed with ANY of his baptisms, until after he had completed ALL SEVEN of them! (2 Ki 5:14)


    But you see if the spiritual "prostitution" involved in a broken holy marriage covenant has once again reduced the anointed ones into completely "desolated" spiritual "widows and virgins," we can be absolutely CERTAIN that the "birth pangs" involved with transforming them into theocratic spiritual shepherds that would make even the first century APOSTLES pale by comparison would indeed be a "GREAT TRIBULATION"! (Isa 1:21) (Da 9:27b) (Re 8:1) (Mt 25:1, 2, 5, 10) (La 1:1, 4) Are things such as the "last" or "seventh march around" the city of ancient Jericho that seemed as seven times greater than the previous ones suddenly beginning to take on more meaning for us? (Jos 6:3-5) (Mt 10:23) (1 Cor 15:51-53)


    Bear in mind the complete "breakdown" of what a broken holy covenant had now reduced to a kind of promiscuous "DAUGHTER of Jehovah's people" that Jeremiah was witnessing at the time of his writings was occurring well over two and a half MILLENNIUMS ago! (Jer 8:11) (Eze 23:1-4) But when we realize that this figurative "woman" being spoken of here in chapter 15 of his account was foretold to ultimately experience "SEVEN" of these births in the time frame of the "seven times" that foreign kings or world powers would be hosting God's people in a state of captivity and "exile" ALONE, (Jer 1:3) we should be reminded of the reason why Jehovah always appoints two prophets or "witnesses" on the earth as "prophets to the NATIONS" or what was now merely an "abandoned" "HOUSE of Israel" towards the end of these periods, just as he did with Jeremiah and the "son of man" Ezekiel in the case of the FIRST of these "seven" foretold settings. (Re 11:3) (Jer 1:5 15:9) (Eze 3:1) (Mt 23:38) (Da 4:23, 32)


    If a broken holy marriage covenant results in a "divorcing" from Jehovah and transforms even the ANOINTED into a "leprous" FOREIGN entity, then would not a rather DISTINCT type of ministry now be required to once again "CLOTHE" or cover even THEM once again with the blood atonement of the Christ? (Jer 3:8) (Mt 25:36) And if great spiritual famines or "food shortages" are always a part of these "tribulations," (not to mention LITERAL ones), do we imagine Jehovah would allow the REPENTANT ones to now STARVE to death spiritually? (Mt 25:35)


    Yes at least in the case of the ones who would be inclined to repent over the "apostasy" or even spiritual adultery that RESULTED in these "pangs of distress" that always precede ANOTHER foretold "birth" of Jehovah's kingdom or "day of Jehovah," our loving God has no intention of allowing them to remain in their "leprous" and foreign spiritual condition. (Joh 6:51) (Mt 3:1, 2) (Lu 21:11) (2 Th 2:1-4) Was this not precisely what was being pictured for us with a kind of repentant and "discreet" prostitute by the name of Rahab in ancient Jericho, who not only was spared from its destruction but was subsequently wedded to a Judean prince? (Jos 2:1) (Mt 1:5 25:1, 2. 5, 10)


    What we would do very well to understand here however is that during these foretold periods of a broken "holy marriage" or "kingdom covenant," when it comes to the "two witnesses" or "appointed slaves" that Jehovah lovingly and mercifully furnishes for the REPENTANT ones among the anointed, one of the primary OBJECTIVES of these two prophets is to humbly accept even ALL of this great reproach and humiliation upon THEMSELVES. (Zep 3:18) (Re 11:3) (Mt 24:45) (La 1:1, 2, 4) (Isa 54:1-4) (Mt 25:1, 2) It is only in this manner that all the "guiltiness" and spiritual "leprosy" involved in this "sin of the priest" can be REMOVED from the earth by the priestly SACRIFICE of this "son of man." (Le 4:3, 10) (2 Ki 5:1, 10, 14) (Isa 53:3-5, 10-12) (Mt 20:28) (Eze 2:1) (Re 11:3, 7, 11, 12)


    In other words, the tremendous GLORY, POWER, and HONOR that is at least LARGELY enjoyed by divinely appointed theocratic shepherds in the foretold settings of a BIRTH of Jehovah's kingdom is matched only by the tremendous HUMILIATIONS and REPROACHES that at least one or "TWO" of Jehovah's prophets must succeed in bearing when this same nation has experienced a spiritual DEATH! The trials and "TRIBULATIONS" involved with lovingly, persistently, and patiently CONTINUING to offer the spiritual "food" and "clothing" that Jesus' "brothers" so desperately need in these time frames to experience the next foretold BIRTH while they at the same time would generally prefer to CRUCIFY or "BEHEAD" these prophets is in fact the most pivotal PORTION of these foretold "chastisings" or "great tribulations." (Lu 9:9) With these thoughts in mind along with the fact that these "two witnesses" in accounts like Revelation 11 were foretold to appear on the earth also well AFTER the first century, did we just fail to take note of the scripture there in Ezekiel I cited in the previous paragraph?


    Rest assured it is no coincidence that Ezekiel was one of the prophets that Jehovah could apply the term- "son of man" to. (Eze 4:1) We would do well to carefully consider the SETTING that the ministry of both himself and Jeremiah occurred in. ("two witnesses") It was one involving the great humiliations, reproaches and TRIBULATIONS that ALWAYS come from one of the foretold spiritual DEATHS of the "barren woman" as oppose to one of the "seven BIRTHS" she would experience. (1 Sa 2:5) (Jer 15:9) (Isa 1:21 54:1-4 66:7, 8)


    This scriptural term is simply ANOTHER way the scriptures distinguish the "two witnesses" from the theocratic shepherds that exist on the earth AFTER a birth of God's nation. In other words this symbolic expression points to the fact that the specific ministry THEY are engaged in will soon result in another BIRTH of Jehovah's nation on the earth. However in stark contrast to the "DAUGHTER of Jehovah's people" that is always born from the spiritually adulterous relations involved in the BREAKING of the holy marriage covenant," the ministries that involve the RENEWING of these covenants and the "inaugurating" of them with blood always result in the birth of a "SON, a MALE who is to shepherd all the nations with an iron rod"! (Jer 8:11) (Re 12:5)


    This "son," now being "caught away to God and his throne" (even if more in a SYMBOLIC sense on occasion), is obviously at this point NOT a man, but is nonetheless a "son OF man." At the same time however, he is also now simultaneously a "son of GOD." Any and all of the "body of the Christ" who would now REMAIN on the earth for a time as genuine theocratic shepherds of the renewed and inaugurated kingdom covenant would now only be "adopted" as such a "son" upon remaining faithful until their fleshly death. (Ro 8:23) (1 Cor 12:12)


    In the case of Jeremiah and Ezekiel on this FIRST of the "seven" occasions these foretold "plantings and harvests" of the holy nation would be associated with "captivity and exile" to "seven" FOREIGN "kings" or world powers, the spiritual DEATH in this case was due to the unfaithful or even adulterous conduct of "king Jehoiakim" and the manner in which his actions resulted in Jehovah's "woman" crawling into bed with Pharaoh Necho of ancient Egypt. (Ge 41:22-24) (1 Cor 15:23) (2 Ki 23:31-35) (Re 17:9, 10) Compare (Jer 1:3 3:8)


    The first BIRTH by contrast foretold for these "seven times" occurred with the divine appointing of the prophet Daniel and his three "Hebrew companions" inside ancient Babylon. (Da 2:47-49) Just as prophetically pictured with Joseph AND the Pharaoh he served under in ancient Egypt, Daniel and his companions would now serve alongside an "anointed shepherd" or "servant of JEHOVAH" by the name of NebuchadRezzar * (as opposed to NebuchadNezzar) as GENUINE theocratic shepherds of God's people until the time that the holy covenant Jeremiah and Ezekiel had assisted Jehovah with renewing would be violated AGAIN. (Jer 25:9) (Isa 44:28 45:1) (Da 5:1-4


    *[We would do well to take into account a very well established scriptural pattern throughout the entire history of Jehovah's nation or people of him assigning new names to ones he chooses to adopt or claim as his own. (Much like a wife taking on the name of her husband at the time of a marriage.) Often times this would amount to merely a slight alteration of their preexisting one such as in the case of Abram and Sarai being changed to Abraham and Sarah. In the case of ancient King Nebuchadnezzar we should see it as no surprise that we encounter an alteration of his name at the very same moment Jehovah identifies him as one of his "servants." (Jer 25:9) Compare (Ge 17:5, 15) (Re 2:17) With that in mind, should we in turn find it confusing as to why this king is suddenly given back his previous name at the very moment he is represented in a symbolic/prophetic drama as pridefully rebelling against Jehovah? (Da 4:30) (Jer 3:8)]


    Yes we very much need to appreciate that this spiritual "prostitution" violates the holy marriage "COVENANT" that always establishes even the very EXISTENCE of Israel on the earth, and by extension Jehovah's TRUE people! (Isa 1:21) (Eze 23:1-4) This is the very REASON that even in the case of the repentant ones among the ANOINTED, as opposed to something intended for spiritual Jews or Christians, the "baptism of holy spirit and fire" now required in these very tragic settings to cleanse them from their spiritual "leprosy" is identified in the scriptures as being experienced by something like a "king of NINEVEH" or a "SYRIAN ARMY CHIEFTAIN"! (Jon 3:6) (2 Ki 5:1, 10, 14)


    If we are actually true CHRISTIANS in these times in which we are eagerly anticipating another "birth" or "coming of the kingdom" and its corresponding "bowl of the anger of God," ("Armageddon") there would of course never be any NEED for one of these rather "fiery" spiritual cleansings or "baptisms" always associated with it. (Mt 3:11) (Mal 3:2, 3) In other words even coming to learn and genuinely confront our true identity in these prophetic time frames is a "GREAT TRIBULATION" that "few" even among the anointed in these settings will "discreetly" navigate or overcome! (Mt 22:14 25:1, 2) The vast majority even of the ANOINTED ones in these time frames are actually "STUMBLED" even over just this one challenge ALONE! (1 Pe 2:8) (Mt 13:57) But are we really grasping the points here?


    Among the things that make these "birth pangs" or "tribulations" involved in another foretold manifestation of Jehovah's kingdom on the earth so very "GREAT" or challenging is the veritable OCEANS of "teachings and commands of MEN as doctrines" that always IMMEDIATELY begin flooding the ENTIRE EARTH the MOMENT that these "holy covenants" are violated with spiritual adultery on the part of the anointed ones they are formed with. It is as if what WAS a great river of life giving water that Jehovah was furnishing through ones like the prophet Joseph and the very benevolent Pharaoh he served with is now suddenly a great river of BLOOD, and what WERE up until that moment priceless scriptural truths out of the mouth of Jehovah are now suddenly much better described as "unclean inspired expressions that look like FROGS coming out of the mouth of the dragon, the wild beast and the false prophet." (Re 11:6 16:13) (Ex 7:19 8:6)


    Yes the great "PLAGUES" involved in the prophetic drama we are currently considering here in ancient Egypt and which are in fact well reflected and elaborated on also in Revelation are simply yet ANOTHER way in which these foretold "great tribulations" have been illustrated or prophetically pictured for us throughout the scriptures. Genuinely or divinely appointed theocratic shepherds have the "AUTHORITY" and POWER to change such divine blessings into CURSINGS for the reason that that they are placed in a POSITION in which upon "LEAVING the holy covenant," a "DISGUSTING THING" is immediately "PUT IN PLACE" of what now HAD BEEN an anointing of JEHOVAH as opposed to a counterfeit substitution from the "serpent." (Re 12:14) (Da 11:30-32) (1 Cor 3:16, 17) In other words the earth is now once again dealing with the ANTICHRIST as opposed to the CHRIST. (Strong's #473 #5547) Another "GREAT TRIBULATION" has begun, and rest assured it is no coincidence they are associated with "SEVEN seals, SEVEN trumpet blasts, SEVEN bowls of the anger of God, and even "SEVEN kings" or world powers. (Re 16:11 7:9, 10)


    But even ASIDE from the extremely "desolating" effects of this great river of spiritual "blood" or even "vomit" in of ITSELF, the challenge now of completely OVERCOMING or DISCARDING all the false teachings we have been programmed with our entire lives is ALSO a great test or "tribulation." (Da 11:31) (Isa 28:8) (Mt 15:9) For this very reason the teachings of the "son of man" that ALWAYS arrives in the LATTER part of these "Great tribulations" sound like a FOREIGN LANGUAGE or even a "NEW song" to the anointed "virgins" and "widows." (Eze 33:32, 33) (Re 14:3) But you see the exact MANNER in which these "great tribulations" were "typified" for us in the prophetic drama of the "ten plagues" should help us understand that WE OURSELVES have ALREADY been experiencing the devastating effects of the FINAL foretold "great tribulation" for MANY YEARS NOW. The ONLY part of this phenomenon that we have NOT YET experienced during this "LAST" foretold "trumpet" is precisely what is being pictured with the very LAST of these '"ten plagues." (1 Cor 15:51-53) What exactly is this?


    Jehovah willing, let us by all means pick up the discussion on this particular point beginning with my next post.


    Agape love;

    Sol
     
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    Joshuastone7

    Joshuastone7 Administrator Staff Member

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    Sol, I can't understand what it is you are presenting. I can't determine what in the world you are actually going on about. Your writing is monotonous and tedious and completely distracts from any message you are trying to present.

    This forum is designed to debate. What you may see as arguing, I see as debating. I have learned more from those who would not stop correcting me than I ever have from blindly excepting what I thought was right and wrong.

    Others didn't stop until my eyes were open, and I have thanked them for that. And that took me admitting I could be wrong.

    It's not the subject Sol; it's your writing style. Like the sentence above. "I'm well aware that many people recognize perhaps even the majority of my posts as rather cumbersome to go over." All you had to say is, "I'm aware others find my posts cumbersome." All of this 'perhaps' and 'recognize' unnecessary vocabulary does not make you sound intelligent, it makes you sound like you never went to school, and it looks like you think a multitude of words makes you sound intelligent. It does the opposite, Sol.

    I've told you over and over that a book editor would not even take on your work. There are rules to writing that have nothing to do with me. You are seriously erroring when you have ten verbs in one sentence describing how others should react. "Are we now perhaps starting to grasp, and now beginning to understand what we need to pay attention to?" That kind of nonsense in your writing is tedious to anyone who ever actually went to school. But you will not listen...

    Then you put scriptures at the end of your sentences claiming they prove your point, without ever discussing exactly what in that scripture has anything to do with what you're talking about. And most of the time they have absolutely nothing to do with your topic.

    Then you capitalize all the letters of many of the words in your posts for no reason at all.

    You ramble on about nothing, thinking these are great insights... I don't know how many times I have to quote these scriptures: "For when dreams increase and words grow many, there is vanity; but God is the one you must fear." Ecc 5:7

    Many words do not make you look intelligent; they do quite the opposite. Any book editor would tell you this immediately. Your words need to be concise and to the point. If you want to write and be a teacher, your words must be as few as possible. But you won't even consider the possibility that you could be wrong.

    And you refuse to take any kind of direction.....

    So it's an understatement to think you are looking to teach others. Gotya...

    Do you ever ask yourself, what if you're wrong? Questioning your own understanding is not lacking faith; it is necessary.

    "If anyone thinks he is religious and does not bridle his tongue but deceives his heart, this person's religion is worthless." Jms 1:26

    When it comes to scriptural discussions on this forum, everyone else who comes here presents their points and discusses with others. You are not looking to do that; you are looking to present what you believe you are commissioned to do. It's obvious...

    Why do you think Jesus posed questions to people? One of the greatest teaching tools is to help others find the answers themselves through questioning and listening to what they currently believe, then showing them exactly where they took a wrong turn. You're not asking anyone anything. You're not trying to engage with anyone; you are only presenting what you believe is your job. And I'm here to tell you, I've discussed you with others, trying to find ways to help you, but you will not listen.

    If you truly wanted to be a teacher, you would listen. Listening is the first step. When you think you already know everything, all you do is act as a strawman.

    It's comments like this that make you look like you think you know more than others. Even if you think you do, you don't say things like this. It makes you look cocky. Have you not read Proverbs? I don't need to ask God to help me accept what you say is correct. Your thoughts are not God's.

    The audacity.

    And who is 'us'? You gotta mouse in your pocket? Are you talking about you and God? Are you talking about you and everyone else on here? I happen to be the guy with the off button to this website in his hand. I'm not sure why you would not listen to the one guy who can delete every one of your posts.

    As to your other point: A teacher and a prophet help correct others in their misunderstandings, and that's what I am doing. I am attempting to correct you...

    You are just acting out your idea that you need to share what you believe you are commissioned to do with others. That's not a teacher, nor is it a prophet. That is the definition in Scripture of one who is self-absorbed. A true teacher corrects. And in order to do so, you need to ask what others believe and understand and study exactly why they believe as they do. Then you correct them based on their own understandings. You don't do that; you're stuck in your own head. All you do is discuss what you believe.

    As I just said, a teacher and a prophet correct others' misunderstandings. You have read the Bible, cover to cover, right?

    I offered a more stern suggestion this time because I'm the guy with the off button in his hand. I happen to own this forum...

    I will pray to Jehovah (as you suggested) but that he guide you to open your eyes, Sol.

    Joshua
     
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    Get out of her New Member

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    Among the things I have been endeavoring all along to convey to you brother Joshua is that if anything I have been experiencing just as much if not more difficulty following what you have to share or say than you are with me. For example, was I not yet again able to effectively demonstrate how your last message came across as very contradictory? Moreover could you honestly insist that this reply you just sent me has not completely sidestepped some very legitimate questions I posed to you. Did you not instead decide to take advantage of another opportunity to begin attacking me? What makes this even rather ironic is that you are now criticizing me for not posing questions. I realize you may not WISH to recognize things in some particular manner, but that of course does not necessarily make things a reality.

    The mere fact that I am once again at this very moment engaging in what you call a "debate" should make it clear that positions or understandings that are contrary to mine are not are not what I have a problem with. It is things such as unloving and disrespectful words and behaviors that I refuse to take part in. A good example of this is that you have now gone so far as to resort to outright threats on top of your relentless accusations, and while doing this you seem blissfully unaware of how poorly this kind of behavior reflects on you.

    I've gone so far as to stop communicating with you altogether in order to avoid falling into the same trap of engaging in mere fighting and arguing (which you insist on calling "debates") and even this has not helped you to stop this kind of behavior. You then want to talk about how I never want to listen or even accept "direction." Could you please at least make some kind of effort at understanding how strange or even hypocritical this comes across to me and particularly since in my case I have openly presented myself as a Bible teacher from the very beginning? Not once have I ever made a statement such as --"no one is here to teach," and in fact all I have ever done here is exactly that.

    Once again if you do not wish to pay any heed to what I have to share that is your prerogative, and if you are the owner of this website you are certainly more than free to delete myself and my posts altogether. Regardless I evidently need to make it clear that the assignment I accepted here was from Jehovah, and it is he alone that I take direction from.

    Agape love;
    Sol
     
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    Get out of her New Member

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    Undoubtedly we would all do well to appreciate the fact that just as is ALWAYS the case in the prophetic time frames that REQUIRE another of the foretold "comings of God's kingdom" or "births of the barren woman," basically NOTHING pertaining to the Holy Scriptures is being taught correctly in these time frames by organized religion or otherwise in a manner in which it would actually nourish us spiritually as opposed to even poisoning us. (Mt 16:6) (Isa 28:8) The spiritual famines and darkness connected with ALL these broken holy marriage covenants and the fact that it breaks our creator's heart DESPITE the fact that we now deserve it is among the primary REASONS that he mercifully restores Israel or TRUE Christianity to the earth in these settings in which a national apostasy has once again replaced the Christ in God's "sanctuary" or refuge ("ark," "salvation") with the counterfeit "antichrist." (Da 11:31) (2 Th 2:4) (Strong's #473) (Lu 19:41-44) (Mt 23:37, 38)


    DO WE UNDERSTAND that for us to even ACKNOWLEDGE we are yet again eagerly anticipating another foretold "coming of the kingdom," we have already openly admitted unwittingly or otherwise that TRUE Christianity once again no longer exists on the earth? WE OURSELVES in so doing are actually confirming the truth of what the Apostle Paul states at 2 Thessalonians 2:1-4, namely that by means of yet another "apostasy" on the part of Jehovah's appointed earthly shepherds, "…A god" has once again been allowed to "…sit down in the temple of THE God…" or otherwise perform the exact same replacement that the prophet Daniel speaks of at Daniel 11:31. This is actually the precise definition of the word—"antichrist" which in turn literally means – replacement anointing or spirit. (Strong's #473 #5547)


    Yes the Apostle John is officially announcing the fifth foretold spiritual DEATH of the figurative "barren woman" there in accounts like 1 John 2:18 that would unfold in this period identified as the "appointed times of the nations" as opposed to her fifth foretold "BIRTH." (Jer 15:9) (Lu 21:24) (Isa 54:1-4) Since at that point in time mankind was already dealing with SPIRITUAL Israel as opposed to FLESHLY, this was actually another way of saying that the first of the THREE births and subsequent deaths of TRUE Christianity that were FORETOLD to occur during this time period of foreign "captivity and exile" of God's people had already unfolded by the end of the first century. (Jer 1:3) John is actually announcing precisely what ones like the Apostle Paul had been warning the Christian congregations about as early as around 50 or so CE. (2 Th 2:5-11) I will continue to demonstrate with the scriptures that it is absolutely IMPERATIVE we understand things such as this if we are EVER to attain an accurate understanding in turn of scriptural terms like the "great tribulation."


    When it comes to this figurative "Nile River of blood" or otherwise the never ending stream of death dealing "expressions inspired of demons that look like frogs" which ALWAYS begin to emerge EVEN ALSO from WHAT WAS Jehovah's own "sanctuary" or "temple" the moment it is overthrown with a "leaving of the holy covenant," do we have any reason to imagine that the scriptural teachings of "the great tribulation" and "Armageddon" would somehow remain immune to all this? In fact, to begin putting into perspective just how far removed the current teachings really are at this point from truth and reality, let's quickly consider how what is pictured symbolically by the "TENTH plague" or otherwise what would clearly qualify as even the FINAL portion of a "great tribulation" was fulfilled on the fifth of these foretold "seven times" during the first century. (Ro 15:4)


    Lets not forget first of all that "pangs of distress" are something that a PREGNANT woman experiences. The figurative "woman" we are considering here in scriptural prophecy is obviously no longer pregnant when she experiences what is symbolized here in the tenth plague of ancient Egypt. (Re 12:1, 2) (Jer 15:9) (Isa 66:7, 8) Just as was demonstrated for us also in the early part of the first century, the "death of the firstborn" and its commensurate "blood of the Lamb" that must now be presented before Jehovah as if the anointed would champion it by even "splashing it upon their doorposts" is in fact actually marking or confirming that the holy kingdom covenant HAS ALREADY been renewed! (Lu 22:28, 29) (He 9:16-18) But why might it be so very important for us to grasp this?


    At this point we obviously are no longer DEALING with "pangs of distress" or a "great tribulation." Quite to the contrary, we are now dealing with the REWARD for this figurative "pregnancy," which is of course another foretold BIRTH of this figurative "barren woman." In this case we are of course speaking of a "coming of Jehovah's kingdom" or a restoration of genuine theocratic power and authority on the earth along with the TRUE teachings and worship that are always commensurate with it! But a reward or even "good news" for WHO exactly?


    You see just as was illustrated or "typified" for us with prophetic dramas such as with the oppressed Hebrews slaves in ancient Egypt, while the massive release from the slavery and bondage of that this "death of the firstborn" quickly resulted in was INDEED a great reward AND EVEN also for a "vast mixed company" that now JOINED the Hebrews in what was now a GENERAL "harvest" as opposed to merely that of the "firstfruits," (the "vast mixed company" representing the distinction between the "little flock the father has approved of giving the kingdom" as opposed to the "other sheep" they would be given shepherding authority and power over), it was nonetheless at the same time the WORST PART of a "great tribulation" for all who would not now JOIN the ones performing this "exodus." (He 8:5) (1 Cor 15:23) (Ex 12:38) (Lu 12:32) (Joh 10:16) In fact (once again) what we are now considering no longer truly QUALIFIES as a "great tribulation," but rather what the scriptures refer to with terms like "the hour of test that is coming upon the whole inhabited earth," a "bowl of the anger of God," or an "ARMAGEDDON." (Re 3:10 16:1, 16) But what exactly is the point here?


    Just as illustrated for us as far back as with the great flood of Noah's day, we are now dealing simultaneously with massive deliverance and salvation alongside massive DESTRUCTION of all God's enemies! In other words, what we are NOW considering with this "tenth plague" is something that ALWAYS transpires on the earth the moment that GENUINE theocratic power and authority is RESTORED to it. For example while the renewed kingdom covenant and the subsequent "death of the firstborn" that occurred in 33 CE actually marked the END or final "TENTH plague" portion of the "great tribulation" foretold for that time period, we would now do quite well to consider exactly how the "ARMAGEDDON" or "CONCLUSION OF A SYSTEM OF THINGS" facet of this fifth foretold "birth of the barren woman" would now unfold. (Da 9:24-27) (Jer 15:9)


    History bears out that even when it came to the final or "tenth plague" portion of this particular "great tribulation," it unfolded in a manner that was almost NOTHING like what we have always been led to understand! First of all, the "conclusion" of the "Jewish system of things" that immediately commenced with 33 CE lasted FORTY YEARS! It culminated with the decisive defeat of the Jewish rebels in Jerusalem in 70 CE and ended altogether at the fortress of Masada four years later at the hands of what ones like the first century historian Flavius Josephus described as by that time an entirely new manifestation of the Roman Empire.


    Yes there is ALWAYS a rise of a new world power with a renewed and inaugurated kingdom covenant that IMMEDIATELY begins rendering Jehovah's adverse judgments upon the previous one that "led into apostasy" ones among Jehovah's appointed shepherds who were beginning to "act wickedly against the holy covenant." (Da 11:30-32) This would certainly account for what we encounter in scriptures such as found at Philippians 4:22. However an extremely significant thing that transpired RIGHT ALONG WITH these 40 years of destruction should help us appreciate that even more important to Jehovah than expressing his full wrath upon his enemies is the SALVATION of all who would now REPENT over the spiritual "harlotry" that brought his great anger upon the earth in the first place. (Isa 1:21) What exactly was this?


    Let’s not forget that the PRIMARY purpose of a restored theocratic shepherding fold or TRUE Christian nation is to now begin ushering as many people into the "ark" or "sanctuary/temple" of Jehovah's salvation as possible! (1 Cor 3:16, 17) What will now once again be a VERY DIFFERENT kind of ministry than the one always designed for Jesus "brothers" to RENEW these covenants TAKES TIME! (Mt 10:5, 6 25:40) Compare (Mt 28:18-20) (2 Pe 3:9) Despite satan's desperate and unrelenting efforts to hide this information, there is nonetheless rather compelling evidence even BEYOND what is found in scriptural prophecy that GENUINE Christian ministries occurred on the earth for the first few decades of the British Empire as well as very briefly ("for a short while") with the rise of the Anglo-American one that followed. (Re 17:10) Should we find it at all surprising that some rather "Armageddon"-like events corresponded with BOTH of these "births of the barren woman"?


    Nevertheless when we think in terms of Armageddon, the FIRST thing that should actually be coming to our minds is A GENUINE DIVINELY ORDAINED PUBLIC MINISTRY! Moreover at the very LEAST this would be a public ministry that would VERY WELL REFLECT what the earth experienced between the years of 33 to 98 or so CE. Once again the reason we currently DO NOT see anything on the earth that even REMOTELY resembles things like Apostles who could routinely do things like write books of the Bible and LITERALLY raise the dead is because TRUE CHRISTIANITY IS NOT HERE at the moment, which in turn is precisely why we are once again in dire need of another "coming of the kingdom"! In OUR time period this will be manifested in the form of the Millennial Reign, and this is precisely why we can say that "AT THE VERY LEAST" any GENUINE public ministry would well reflect the one the earth experienced in the first century. Ones like the Apostle Paul and in fact even the ancient prophet Daniel made it perfectly clear that on this final foretold occasion the earth will be experiencing ministers that will be "incorruptible and immortal" and "shine like the brightness of the expanse." (Da 12:3) (1 Cor 15:51-53) Compare (Mt 24:27, 30, 31)


    You see the "stripping of all the valuables" from the Egyptians we read about in Exodus that immediately followed this "splashing of the blood of the Lamb on the doorposts" on the part of the Hebrews in connection with what would now be a MASS exodus (as opposed to the flight made 40 years earlier on the part of Moses alone) was in fact a symbolic representation of what a massive PUBLIC ministry (GENERAL "harvest" or spiritual "rebirth" as opposed to merely that of the "firstfruits") on the part of a GENUINE theocratic shepherding fold ALWAYS accomplishes by means of a renewed and inaugurated kingdom covenant. (Ex 12:35-38) (1 Cor 15:23) (Re 20:6) As opposed to the ministry to a "LITTLE flock that the father has approved of giving the kingdom" that always results in the "harvesting" of the "FIRSTFRUITS" of a birth of God's nation, these "riches" that were "stripped from the Egyptians" actually proved to be a "VAST MIXED COMPANY" which in turn represented a "GREAT CROWD" of "OTHER sheep, which are NOT OF this" divine shepherding "fold." (Lu 12:32) (Joh 10:16) (Re 7:9)


    Even if this "great crowd" would not qualify as Jews or otherwise what ones like the Apostle Paul and the writer Luke distinguished as spirit anointed shepherds of Jehovah's flock, (also referred to as Christians in this setting of a renewed covenant as opposed to simply spiritual Israelites), the moment THEY would officially come under this renewed covenant with a WATER baptism (as opposed to one of "holy spirit and fire"), REGARDLESS of their specific genetic lineage or nationality they would now qualify as EXACTLY what was symbolized with the ancient tribe of Ephraim AS WELL AS what this tribe ULTIMATELY manifested itself as upon later becoming isolated from the EARTHLY "CAMP" of its shepherding counterpart. (Song 6:13) (Ro 2:28, 29) (Ac 18:24-28) (Mt 3:11) What was this? This was the "full equivalent of NATIONS" which until the moment they would ALSO fall into the same level of spiritual "prostitution" that their "sister" would already have at this point, would nonetheless qualify as ISRAELITES. (Ge 48:19) (Eze 23:1-4 37:16-19) (Isa 1:21) (Zec 11:7, 14-17)


    So upon this "striking of the first born" and its commensurate presentation of the "blood of the Lamb," what is now once again a GENUINE theocratic shepherding "fold" made up of TRUE Christians is tasked with all the trials and "tribulations" involved with the ministry spoken of in accounts like Matthew 28:18-20 as opposed to Matthew 10:5, 6. In stark contrast with the ministry represented/illustrated essentially as being conducted STRICTLY by Jehovah himself which resulted in MOSES ALONE performing an "exodus" or "running away" from Egypt around 40 years earlier, (this and his corresponding shepherding of the little flock of Jethro representing the ministry to Jesus' "brothers" which the earth is experiencing yet again at this very moment), what we are now dealing with is a ministry that DOES NOT involve merely "two witnesses" or genuine "appointed" prophets of Jehovah like Moses and Aaron or Jesus and John the Baptist. (Ex 2:15 3:1) Compare (Mt 24:15, 16) (Re 12:6, 14) (Re 11:3) (Mt 24:45 25:40)


    Just as was demonstrated for us also between the years of 33 and 74 CE, this PUBLIC ministry (once again) always soon results in a MASS exodus, not so much from Egypt or for that matter even Babylon the Great, but more specifically from what these entities represented symbolically in a "FALLEN" spiritual condition in which the Joseph/Pharaoh or even Daniel/ Nebuchadrezzar entity that HAD been furnishing the "captives" of Israel with Jehovah's loving protection and care were NOW (by means of a BROKEN holy covenant and the demonic invasion of Jehovah's "temple/sanctuary" that always results from it), holding them in a condition of both literal AND spiritual darkness and slavery. (Re 18:2) (1 Cor 3:16, 17)


    The moment we are able to actually grasp what in reality are BASIC scriptural truths such as this, we will in turn suddenly find ourselves also in a position to understand the symbolic spiritual language ones like the Apostle John are expressing in accounts like Revelation 11:8. By extension we will begin to appreciate that it is NOT the "great tribulation" that we should be currently anticipating, any more than we should be expecting the arrival of the "antichrist" or "disgusting thing" that always initiates it. (Da 11:30-32) (2 Th 2:1-8) (1 Joh 2:18)


    I will continue to irrefutably demonstrate with the Holy Scriptures that for the final foretold "time" we have ALREADY long been dealing with these "pangs of distress upon a pregnant woman" that ALWAYS begin the very MOMENT a holy marriage covenant is violated with spiritual adultery. (1 Th 5:3) It is the "bowl of the anger of God" or the "ARMAGEDDON" portion of these "great plagues" we should now be thinking in terms of and in a RATHER DIFFERENT MANNER than we have always been led to believe! (Re 16:1, 16) We can ALREADY even at this very moment see the nations of the "kings of the ENTIRE INHABITED EARTH" beating the battle drums of this FINAL "plague" which is NOW more specifically in connection with the "EIGHTH king" foretold to appear at the END of the "seventh time" or "last trumpet." (Da 4:23, 32) (1 Cor 15:51-53) (Re 11:15 17:9-11) This great battle will end with ALL of these armies essentially being drowned in a figurative "Red Sea" of Jehovah's adverse judgments. So what exactly is it then that we are considering here in Revelation 11:8 in connection with YET ANOTHER foretold ministry of the "two witnesses." (Re 11:3) (The "sixth" in this case) (Re 9:13)


    By all means let's endeavor to pick up the discussion with this question beginning with my next post.


    Agape love;

    Sol
     
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    Joshuastone7 Administrator Staff Member

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    There is a big difference. You can't follow me because of the subject, not my writing. I write very concisely, whereas your writing is full of errors. I can't follow your writing because it's eligible. You can't follow my writing because you can't understand my ideology.

    I've tried to help you, and you don't listen. But I'll try one more time because of my Christian love for you.

    Like this sentence: "DO WE UNDERSTAND that for us to even ACKNOWLEDGE we are yet again eagerly anticipating another foretold "coming of the kingdom," we have already openly admitted unwittingly or otherwise that TRUE Christianity once again no longer exists on the earth?"

    Do we understand that for us to even acknowledge we are yet again eagerly anticipating? What in the WORLD does that even mean? Do we understand that to even accept we yet again are anticipating? What????? We are anticipating yet again something we must understand that we need to even acknowledge? What???????? This sentence makes absolutely no grammatical sense, and your writing is filled with it on every other line. Half of all of your posts are filled with this same nonsense that breaks all grammatical rules and makes absolutely no sense.

    The subject you are discussing is not complex and is the milk of Scripture, really basic elementary material. Yet through your inflated attitude and use of many words, you act as though you are commissioned by God directly. And I say you have deceived yourself.

    No

    It is common for someone who needs correction but will not accept it to result to a strawman argument.

    Look, it's obvious you are copying and pasting from another website or blog from somewhere else. I am now not going to allow that. You can concisely post your understandings and open them to debate, or I will have to ask you to leave. I will not continue to allow you to just copy and paste here all because you feel you have a direct commission from God to teach us.

    It is my opinion that you have blinded your own mind through isolating yourself.

    This kind of comment shows just how far you've gone. You are not the spokesman for God, and you do not have all of the answers. You have deceived yourself.

    You obviously have never run a forum. Kicking people off and deleting their posts is just part of it. If I try (as I have) to direct your intentions on here and you don't listen, then you will leave me with no other course of action. I will not just let you continue to copy and paste to this forum. Present what you believe as your opinion, and then open up that opinion for debate with others, or I'll have to escort you to the door.

    Pretty simple...

    You have such an inflated opinion of yourself...lol I own this forum...lol You think ignoring me is the way to continue to contribute on here? You have a perspective problem.

    Do you have any idea how many people like you I've met over the years? How many people believe they have the real truth and a direct commission from God to share that? Do you think you're unique in that belief?

    So, when you get your own forum, you can run it as you wish; however since I own this forum, I get to make the rules. Again, if you want to post here, stop the copy and pasting, and present an argument to be debated. That is what this forum is for, and I am no longer going to let you copy and paste your illegible ramblings.

    With all due Christian love, I hope your eyes open...

    Joshua
     

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