Bible questions

Discussion in 'General Discussions' started by jehovahisgod, Oct 13, 2013.

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    jehovahisgod

    jehovahisgod Experienced Member

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    why does jesus emphasize the importance of avoiding hell at the cost of evan a limb and stress that the fire never goes out, and the worm never dies? 3 times in a row in mark?
     
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    SingleCell

    SingleCell Experienced Member

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    The word hell is not in the Bible (Hades is once I believe). (I'm going on a tangent JIG!)

    The scripture you are citing uses the word gehenna.

    Definition: Gehenna, originally the name of a valley or cavity near Jerusalem


    Much like the 'eternal flame' of the Olympics (which certainly isn't eternal), Jesus wasn't talking about 'eternal' torment, but rather a metaphor for ultimate destruction.

    "this MEANS the second death, the lake of fire"

    Also ask yourself this, if Jehovah IS love, would he do something you would never consider even to your worst enemy?

    Does Jehovah have a vendetta against 'sinners' that he will LITERALLY NEVER GET RID OF?!?!

    1 Corinthians 13 gives us a beautiful definition of love. Is Jehovah in violation of the love he himself defined?

    The JWs are absolutely correct in this analysis!

    (otherwise, why on earth would you worship Jehovah? is a God who torments people in error for an eternity, worthy of your worship?)

    So rather than threatening to burn you forever, Jesus is making a statement of hyperbole to get a point across:

    "Do WHATEVER you can to stop yourself from doing bad, so you can enter the kingdom"

    Fortunately for all of us, mercy triumphs over judgment. So we must be merciful ourselves!
     
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    jehovahisgod

    jehovahisgod Experienced Member

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    ok thats reasonable. now what does it mean when the bible says some will be resurected to a judgement of indefinately lasting reproachs? while the rightous go into life? this sound as if jehovah will bring siners back from the grave to face a punishment for their wicked deeds, is this what it means?
     
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    Joshuastone7

    Joshuastone7 Administrator Staff Member

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    JIG, this is a pretty basic bible teaching in which JW's have accurate knowledge of. Here is a most recent article; .jw.org/en/publications/magazines/wp20140101/is-death-the-end

    Basically brother, during the thousand years you will have those raised to earth who never knew Jehovah, sinners of all kinds having a chance to learn, as well as those faithful to him. At the end of those thousand years they will meet their final fate, some to everlasting cutting off, and others to everlasting life...
     
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    jehovahisgod

    jehovahisgod Experienced Member

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    so the scripture which says those that practiced vile deads to a resurection of judgement in fact means that they will be resurected into the 1000 milenium to see if they will reform their ways? is this correct?
     
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    SingleCell

    SingleCell Experienced Member

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    I think that is correct.

    Either:

    A) God is going to resurrect people, condemn them, and then un-resurrect them (or torture them forever)

    OR

    B) Jehovah resurrects most of mankind to Christ's 1000 year reign, at the end of which is a final judgment (Satan let loose)

    Recall that those who conquer this system are not subjected to the second death.
     
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    jehovahisgod

    jehovahisgod Experienced Member

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    well let us hope, hope, hope, that this resurection of judgement is not a wakeup call to go jump in a burning lake of torture. and pray that the scriptures that say tormented for ever and ever means that they will be locked into deaths sleep for eternity.I beleive jehovah is a god of love. but I sure would hate to wake up in the bad resurection to find myself in a tough punishment prison camp for 1000 years. that would be no fun at all..
     
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    SingleCell

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    Tough punishment prison camp with the hope of eternal life for conquering Satan's final assault is fine by me! (better than I deserve too)

    But the 'lake of torture (fire)' is a metaphor JIG; it MEANS the second death.

    (I mean this with respect) - you are making the same mistake as trinitarians, that is taking one scripture as the definitive 'definition' of a *thing*, rather than combining ALL of the scriptures describing that thing.

    In the study of history we look for 'multiple entry points' to an event; the same principle applies with the study of the Bible, you take 'multiple entry points' for a complete picture, rather than relying on one entry point (scripture) for your understanding.

    The root of most bad doctrine is a violation of this principle.
     
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    Joshuastone7

    Joshuastone7 Administrator Staff Member

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    Correct...
     
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    Joshuastone7

    Joshuastone7 Administrator Staff Member

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    We might keep in mind that this only applies to those of the anointed who enter the heavenly realm, not speaking of the great crowd to survive into the new world...
     
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    Utuna

    Utuna Member

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    Absolutely !!

    Said otherwise, the GC, stricto sensu, won't experience the first death either. The anointed ones MUST die (or will be changed, 1 Cor. 15:51-52) before being granted immortal life.

    Technically speaking, some of the anointed ones won't experience the first death either => "For in this dwelling house we do indeed groan, earnestly desiring to put on the one for us from heaven, so that, having really put it on, we shall not be found naked." - 2 Cor. 5:2-3.

    According to many Bible scholars, the term "naked" here means without any body, that is, sleeping in death.

    I mean, they won't sleep in death at all as they will be changed instantly and be given another tent "right away" => "In fact, we who are in this tent groan, being weighed down; because we want, not to put it off, but to put on the other, that what is mortal may be swallowed up by life. Now he that produced us for this very thing is God, who gave us the token of what is to come, that is, the spirit." - 2 Cor. 5:4-5
     
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    SingleCell

    SingleCell Experienced Member

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    Yes indeed - I'm sorry for not pointing that out - the conclusion I draw, that if those chosen are not subject to the 'second death', then conversely there are those who are.

    Which you can extrapolate to mean that the 'unrighteous' resurrected along with the GC WILL STILL be under condemnation until the finale is brought to a conclusion.

    After which the 'dead' (who are alive, but under condemnation) are brought to life (eternal life).
     
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    Utuna

    Utuna Member

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    Absolutely !

    Please read : "(The rest of the dead did not come to life until the thousand years were ended.)" - Rv 20:5

    Here, the dead are those who still don't have eternal life, that is the GC, the resurrected ones and the new generations that will be born after Armageddon.

    "Then he said to another: “Be my follower.â€￾ The man said: “Permit me first to leave and bury my father.â€￾ But he said to him: “Let the dead bury their dead, but you go away and declare abroad the kingdom of God." - Luke 9:59-60

    "As the [women] became frightened and kept their faces turned to the ground, the [men] said to them: “Why are YOU looking for the living One among the dead? " - Luke 24:5

    "And he laid his right hand upon me and said: “Do not be fearful. I am the First and the Last, and the living one; and I became dead, but, look! I am living forever and ever, and I have the keys of death and of Ha′des." - Rv 1:17-18

    "because those whom he gave his first recognition he also foreordained to be patterned after the image of his Son, that he might be the firstborn among many brothers. " - Rom. 8:29

    He's the firstborn among many brothers or the first to be resurrected from the dead in the sense that he's the first to reach immortality, to be brought back to life in the fullest.

    => "that the Christ was to suffer and, as the first to be resurrected from the dead, he was going to publish light both to this people and to the nations.â€￾" - Acts 26:23
     
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    SingleCell

    SingleCell Experienced Member

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    Thanks Utuna!

    Proving once again that a direct and literal reading of the Bible will only confuse you!

    It must be understood through the spirit.
     
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    jehovahisgod

    jehovahisgod Experienced Member

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    help help now Im really confused! if the rest of the dead dont come to life till after the 1000 years how do those that did vile deeds get a chance to reform or not..oh why oh why wast i born a headhunter in deep africa? then I wouldent evan know about these confusing scriptures.
     
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    jehovahisgod

    jehovahisgod Experienced Member

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    when jesus was brought before pilate he was whiped and pilate brought him out hopeing the people would see him beaten up and that would be enough but the people yelled for his execution. the book of mark says he was then scourged and handed over..now was jesus beaten up again or was this just a differant version of the acount? did jesus have to endure two beatings before haveing to carry his beam?
     
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    SingleCell

    SingleCell Experienced Member

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    Read Utuna's post again JIG!

    They are 'dead' even though they are alive (resurrected).

    In other words, still under Adam's condemnation until after the 1000 years (and Satan let loose) have ended.

    One of my favorite scriptures:

    But now Christ has been raised from the dead, the firstfruits of those who have fallen asleep in death.

    For since death came through a man, resurrection of the dead also comes through a man.

    For just as in Adam all are dying, so also in the Christ all will be made alive.

    But each one in his own proper order: Christ the firstfruits, afterward those who belong to the Christ during his presence.

    Next, the end, when he hands over the Kingdom to his God and Father, when he has brought to nothing all government and all authority and power.

    For he must rule as king until God has put all enemies under his feet.

    And the last enemy, death, is to be brought to nothing.

    For God “subjected all things under his feet.â€￾ But when he says that ‘all things have been subjected,’ it is evident that this does not include the One who subjected all things to him. But when all things will have been subjected to him, then the Son himself will also subject himself to the One who subjected all things to him, that God may be all things to everyone.

    1 Cor 15:20-28
     
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    jehovahisgod

    jehovahisgod Experienced Member

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    what a confuseing verse.somebody should have written and the rest of the resurected dead will not inherit the new life until the thousand years have passed! let the reader know that while physically alive they have not gained the right to life until they have either proven or disproven themselfs dureing the 1000 years. lord I onley have a few old brain cells left and that one killed of some more.
     
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    SingleCell

    SingleCell Experienced Member

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    “If you search for Jehovah your God from there, you will certainly find him, if you inquire for him with all your heart and with all your soul."

    Deuteronomy 4:29

    This is me speculating, but I believe Jehovah has setup the Bible in a way that those who continue seeking him will know the truth, in that process is a refining for us, and a 'dragnet' for him.

    Also "it is written" that the spirit will lead you to truth. Much of the way we gain that spirit is by searching for Jehovah through his word, Jesus and his word, the Bible.
     
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    jehovahisgod

    jehovahisgod Experienced Member

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    I suppose that it is gods way of weeding out those who aren't really interested in him it takes some work to digest gods food!
     

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