Discussing Prophecy

Discussion in 'Bible Prophecy' started by SingleCell, Aug 8, 2017.

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    SingleCell

    SingleCell Experienced Member

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    BreakTheWalls

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    He doesn't think there will be another Presidential Election, read the comments. Sigh, how many times have we heard this?
     
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    john

    john Member

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    He also said that the WTS would never move out of Brooklyn into their new headquarters:


    Quote - “The City of Tearing Down” on the border of “Egypt,” where an altar to Jehovah is erected by those “swearing loyalty to Jehovah” is New York City. And Bethel serves as the prominent “pillar” erected to Jehovah’s name by those dedicated to him. It is appropriately symbolized as “The City of Tearing Down” because New York is home to Wall Street, which is an appendage of the City of London and an imperial apparatus for looting and ultimately tearing down America…Because of my unique understanding of this fascinating prophecy I can say with the certainty of a prophet that the Watchtower’s intended move will not occur – that the “altar” and “pillar” by the border of Egypt represents the present Brooklyn Bethel. The reason the project is doomed is because“Jehovah is riding on a swift cloud and is coming into Egypt” – soon! – End quote
     
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    SingleCell

    SingleCell Experienced Member

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    Robert has a pretty good grasp on the details of our economic system -- what I think he and others who believe the dollar will crash suddenly (his basic premise on collapse) aren't accounting for is the global banking systems total control over when and how the transition occurs.

    On top of which Donald Trump is a wildcard; better and more likely than the Obama-last-president predictions :)
     
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    Joshuastone7

    Joshuastone7 Administrator Staff Member

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    Robert doesn't understand prophecy, and even though he enjoys discussing it, he has no grasp of it...

    He's better off sticking to what he knows, bashing the WT.
     
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    john

    john Member

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    Quote - Robert doesn't understand prophecy … he has no grasp of it - end quote


    But you on the other hand do, so much so that you have it pinned down and spelt out like a cruise itinerary. :)


    9/10/18

    5/2/21

    6/17/23

    9/30/23-10/6/23

    10/12/24

    11/11/24

    12/26/24


    My wife is excited about knowing that she can quit her job some point between 9/10/18 and 5/2/21.


    Out of curiosity, what scriptures do you use to support this notion of yours that ‘News reports’ will come out about ‘transgression by the WTS’?


    Also, in regards to your notion that ‘the constant feature is removed…The Watchtower is no longer produced.’


    Who do you say will be responsible for stopping the production of the WT? Put another way, who in the bible is tasked with removing the constant feature?
     
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    Joshuastone7

    Joshuastone7 Administrator Staff Member

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    You misrepresent me Sir, I have said that 9/10/18 to 12/26/24 is simply the next time period where the Jewish holidays yet to be fulfilled line up with the chronology of Daniel. The times after that would start in 2029 then 2032, 2056 etc... What I have presented is the Jewish holidays yet to be fulfilled such as Rosh Hashana and Yom Kippur line up with the 1260, 1290, 2300 etc days of Daniel only in certain time frames do to the stretching and shrinking of the lunar calendar.

    I don't say the chronology of Daniel will begin in 2018, I say it simply is the next time frame the Jewish holidays line up with the chronology of Daniel.

    Robert believes the constant feature being removed is the same event as the disgusting thing being placed, this is a misunderstanding of Dan 12:11, the 1290 days are the days between these two events. Therefore Robert chops up Dan 11 in order to make his chronology fit, he places verses 40-45 in between verses 30a and b, meaning he thinks war comes before the constant feature is removed. The next thing Robert expects is the "pushing", when in fact Dan 11 is chronologically sound from verses 1 through 45, and the next thing we are actually to see is the "hurling of denunciations" and then the constant feature is removed. The pushing and war that brings about the 8th king does not occur till deep in the time of the end.

    Dan 11:30b "He will go back and hurl denunciations against the holy covenant and act effectively; and he will go back and will give attention to those leaving the holy covenant."

    This period predates the constant feature being removed and is known as the time of transgression while the constant feature is intact. The 2300 days begin while the constant feature is still intact, but we see the hurling of denunciations due to transgression by those who "supposedly" represent the true God.

    Dan 8:13 "How long will the vision of the constant feature and of the transgression causing desolation continue,"

    Now in the first century the constant feature was the sacrifices at the temple, and those removed were by a temple clerk named Eleazar ben Hanania;

    "Eleazar ben Hanania (Hebrew: אלעזר בן חנניה‎‎; Ancient Greek: Ἐλεάζαρος υἱὸς Ἀνανία) was a Jewish leader during the Great Revolt of Judea. Eleazar was the son of the High Priest Hanania ben Nedebai and hence a political figure of the 1st century Judaea Province. Eleazar was the governor of the temple [1] at the outbreak of the rebellion in 66 CE and following the initial outbreak of the violence in Jerusalem convinced the priests of the Jewish Temple to stop service of sacrifice for the Emperor. The action, though largely symbolic, was one of the main milestones to bring a full-scale rebellion in Judea." (Wikipedia)

    This event began the 1290 day period in 66 CE that culminated in the temple being sacked in 70CE.

    Now my understanding of the WT being the constant feature is a personal interpretation, one cannot find the Watchtower in the text, but the chronology is sound, and whatever you believe the constant feature to be, the chronology is, in my estimation, correct.

    Regardless of what you think the constant feature represents, scripture tells us who removes it.

    Rev 13:5-7 "It was given a mouth speaking great things and blasphemies, and it was given authority to act for 42 months. And it opened its mouth in blasphemies against God to blaspheme his name and his dwelling place, even those residing in heaven. It was permitted to wage war with the holy ones and conquer them,"

    Dan 8:9-11 " Out of one of them came another horn, a small one, and it grew very great toward the south and toward the east and toward the Decoration. It grew so great that it reached all the way to the army of the heavens, and it caused some of the army and some of the stars to fall to the earth, and it trampled them down. It exalted itself even against the Prince of the army, and from him the constant feature* was taken away, and the established place of his sanctuary was thrown down."

    Rev 13:13 "And it performs great signs, even making fire come down out of heaven to the earth in the sight of mankind."

    Zech 13:9 "And I will bring the third part through the fire; And I will refine them as silver is refined,
    And test them as gold is tested. They will call on my name, And I will answer them. I will say, ‘They are my people,’ And they will say, ‘Jehovah is our God."


    As well, there is so much talk about the death stroke of one of the heads in Rev 13 being the moment the 8th king rises, when in fact this understanding is not supported by the text. That healed death stroke of a previous nation should be easily identified, what previous nation of the 7 is seen alive in Rev after we know it fell in the past? Babylon... I have shown many times the events in Rev 17 are a separate event then that of the death stroke, it's the entire beast that goes into the abyss and out in Rev 17, not just one head of the beast in Rev 13, but this isn't the thread to get deep into that subject. Needless to say, the death stroke is not the event that leads the beast in and out of the abyss, becoming the 8th king.

    The only reason I posted my objection to Roberts understanding of prophecy was to shake things up, who knows, one of these days maybe he'll take the time to consider these things, not just demean...
     
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    john

    john Member

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    quote - I don't say the chronology of Daniel will begin in 2018 – end quote


    I am aware of that, I know that you say there are times after 2018, just as you had September 2013 as the date before 2018. But regardless of whatever years the chronology will line up with the Jewish holidays, do you believe that these events will have to occur during those times? Put another way, maybe you have not pinned down the year 2018, just like not pinning down 2013, but do you say that it still has to be fulfilled during one of those time frames?


    quote - Dan 11:30b "He will go back and hurl denunciations against the holy covenant and act effectively; and he will go back and will give attention to those leaving the holy covenant."

    This period predates the constant feature being removed and is known as the time of transgression while the constant feature is intact. The 2300 days begin while the constant feature is still intact, but we see the hurling of denunciations due to transgression by those who "supposedly" represent the true God. – end quote


    I understand that you refer to this happening at the start of the 2300 days, but when you say that “NEWS reports” will come out about the WTS, am I clear that Dan 11:30b is what you are using in making that claim? (If so thank you for citing that.)


    Who is it that will be bringing these reports and to whom are they (the reports) made known to?


    Who is ‘HE’ in verse 30?


    In response to me asking who will remove the constant feature you cited Rev 13:5-7, who is ‘It’ referring to? I know it is referring to the wild beast, but I am asking who is this entity suppose to represent?


    BTW, where is the quote icon in the tool bar?
     
    Last edited: Aug 9, 2017
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    Joshuastone7

    Joshuastone7 Administrator Staff Member

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    I will respond to your post here shortly, but quickly I will give you a tip on quoting.

    What I like to do is scroll up to your post, highlight a given text, and the option to "reply" will appear, at which point if you just click reply under the highlighted text, it will move the quote down here into the post you are writing...
     
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    Joshuastone7

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    If you are asking my personal opinion I will offer it, because I can't give scriptural reference to the fact.

    I do believe personally that the key to when the end will begin is tied up in the Jewish Holidays. After I had completed the work on the chronology, it was at that time I noticed the holidays line up in certain time periods over the centuries. If 2013 had not been one of those time periods, I may not have noticed it at all, but it just so happen to be one.

    And then as you look at things such as the the traditions in the holidays themselves, like Rosh Hashanah being the day "no one knows the day or hour" requiring two witnesses to spot the new moon to verify it, and it being the day of trumpets, the first day of the end, first trumpet etc, you start to see a pattern...

    Yom Kippur the Most Holy day falling on the exact day our Lord is crowned as king over the earthly kingdom.

    Sukkot, the feast of booths falling on the days the 8th king will rise, symbolizing us living in temporary shelters here on earth, being no part of the 8th king, and also allowing us time to stock up on provisions, just like the festival of old.

    Hannukah, the first day of the new world, and the Holiday of liberation...

    So not only do the holidays line up with the chronology of Daniel, they also land on the exact same days as the events are described to happen in Daniel...

    Now, let's do the math, it was determined by a US college that the odds of 8 prophecies being fulfilled in one man (Jesus) were the same as filling the state of Texas with silver dollars two feet high, then dropping one marked dollar within. Then having a person pick out that one marked dollar blinded folded on their first try. I may have the exact detail off a little here or there, but that was the gist.

    Now, it is my contention that the odds the holidays yet to be fulfilled line up exactly with the events Daniel says would occur on the exact days is akin to those kind of odds, as to their being accurate. Meaning that the odds that I'm wrong, are beyond comprehension... Not that any of this is mine by any means, it's all there in the Bible, none of it is of my own personal opinion, except where I obviously am adding my opinion, such as identifying the constant feature today...

    Yes, the "hurling of denunciations" is what I mean, you are correct, and the only reason I say "news reports" is because of the era we live in, news reports and social media is how we get our world wide information.

    You ask who brings the reports...

    Dan 11:30 tells us it's the king of the north that hurls the denunciations.

    Dan 11:30 "He will go back and hurl denunciations."

    Then we are told in Dan 8 a small horn is involved in bringing down "stars" (a word used to described Christs brothers), and the prince of the army, our Lord Christ Jesus.

    Dan 8:10,11 "It grew so great that it reached all the way to the army of the heavens, and it caused some of the army and some of the stars to fall to the earth, and it trampled them down. It exalted itself even against the Prince of the army, and from him the constant feature was taken away, and the established place of his sanctuary was thrown down."

    Now, it's at this point one would need to understand I believe these events have multiple fulfillment's. I believe these events were not only fulfilled during the Maccabean revolt, but also the Jewish War in 66-70, and then a final fulfillment in our future. Which also means that little horn has changed identities over the years. Which also means that the statue in Dan 2, and the beast in Dan 7 have had multiple fulfillment's as well...

    Just a starting point would be to take Babylon for example as the head of the statue, it could have started with Babel, then reborn into Babylon, then into the Babylon we see in the time of the end in Rev, but that's just touching on that subject without going into it...

    Then we know the beast in Rev 13 also plays a role in speaking against Gods people.

    Rev 13:6 "And it opened its mouth in blasphemies against God to blaspheme his name and his dwelling place, even those residing in heaven."

    And I also believe the fire from heaven from the second beast is the hurling of denunciations.

    Rev 13:13 "And it performs great signs, even making fire come down out of heaven to the earth in the sight of mankind."

    These are the same fires that refine the believers of Zech 13:9, and the same fires of the trumpets. The trumpets fall on the faithful slaves, and the bowls on the evil slaves.

    You see, I believe the head of the beast in Rev 13 is Babylon, along with the lion in Dan 7 and the head in Dan 2, but I also believe the 7th head is Babylon, it is the healed death stroke from it's previous life as one of the 7. It shouldn't be surprising that the mouth of the beast in Rev 13 is the lion. (More on that in a bit)

    Rev 13:2 "and its mouth was like a lion’s mouth."

    Now your reaching my limits... Can I identify the entity that will hurl the denunciations? Not really at the moment, I have my guesses, but that's all they would be at the moment. I've pretty much resigned myself to the fact that the event would have to occur for me to say for sure, but once that happened, I could finally finish out all the players in the scenes.

    But I will at least offer you my personal guess, and I believe the Holy See (Vatican) will play a role in the hurling of denunciations. The head of gold, the lion in Dan 7 and the mouthpiece of the beast in Rev 13, Babylon the Great...

    I work on the identities occasionally, and one of the technologies I have implemented recently is VR, here is a video showing a number of white boards, and if you look at them, you can tell this is one of the things I was working on...



    All love...
     
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    john

    john Member

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    (I write out in word then copy/paste here so I guess I can’t use the ‘quote’ but thanks for explaining it.)

    Quote - falling on the exact day our Lord is crowned as king over the earthly kingdom – end quote

    Where do you get the idea that Jesus is crowned as king at that time? Or do you just mean to say that that is when he will arrive at Matt 24:30,31?


    Quote- I do believe personally that the key to when the end will begin is tied up in the Jewish Holidays. – end quote


    So it seems that it is fair for me to say that even thou you are not saying that you can predict what year of those different time frames it will occur, you seem sure that it will be one of those. Is that fair to say?


    Quote - Dan 11:30 tells us it's the king of the north that hurls the denunciations. – end quote


    So you are saying that the KON is on hand in his active role at that time, years before the 1,260 days begin?


    Quote - Then we know the beast in Rev 13 also plays a role in speaking against Gods people. – end quote


    Are you of the understanding that the wild beast and the KON are the same entity or do think they are two separate? If separate, who do you say the wild beast is?
     
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    BreakTheWalls

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    Let's just all be aware of Luke 21:8 & due times (timelines).
     
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    Joshuastone7

    Joshuastone7 Administrator Staff Member

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    Is that what you will say to the two witnesses as well though?

    Rev 11:3 "I will cause my two witnesses to prophesy for 1,260 days dressed in sackcloth."

    You must take Luk 21:8 into perspective with all scripture, because in fact some will know the time table of the end.

    Amos 3:7 "For the Sovereign Lord Jehovah will not do a thing Unless he has revealed his confidential matter to his servants the prophets."

    As well, we want to keep in mind the words in 2Th 2, it's the message that the "day of Jehovah is here" that we want to be on the lookout for. With the chronology I presented, the day of Jehovah isn't until the very end, so therefore the message wouldn't be that day is here, at all. That day will be the day our Lord is revealed in the clouds for the whole world to see, and will be visible to all...

    2Th 2:2 "not to be quickly shaken from your reason nor to be alarmed either by an inspired statement or by a spoken message or by a letter appearing to be from us, to the effect that the day of Jehovah is here."
     
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    Joshuastone7

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    Through my work in Rev 12, HERE, I believe Christ Jesus began ruling in heaven the moment he sat on his Fathers throne, and threw Satan out at that moment, I believe he begins ruling the earthly realm in the time of the end at the last trumpet.

    Now, to your question of Jesus beginning his rule at the end of the 1260 days...

    The two witnesses preach in sackloth for 1260 days, meaning the constant feature is removed, and then at the end of those 1260 days, they are no longer in sackloth, and the constant feature is reestablished, this involves the 70 weeks of Dan 9 as well, that I also believe have a literal fulfillment in the end as 70 weeks.

    Dan 9:25 "You should know and understand that from the issuing of the word to restore and to rebuild Jerusalem until Mes·siʹah the Leader, there will be 7 weeks, also 62 weeks. She will be restored and rebuilt, with a public square and moat, but in times of distress."

    As all of these time frames in Daniel, I believe they have multiple fulfillments. The first fulfillment from Israels captivity to Babylon, to our Lords baptism was 69 weeks (I won't go into the 70th, unless you request). And as well in the time of the end, after the constant feature is removed, 69 weeks before the spiritual temple is established and our Lord crowned there will be literally 69 weeks (and again another 70th week fulfillment).

    So then the constant feature is removed, there is a call to rebuild the spiritual city, and then at the end of the 1260 days is the most important day in human history, the fulfillment of Yom Kippur;

    Dan 12:7 "It will be for an appointed time, appointed times, and half a time. As soon as the dashing to pieces of the power of the holy people comes to an end, all these things will come to their finish.”

    After the 42 months, the courtyard and city will no longer be trampled.

    Rev 11:2 "But as for the courtyard that is outside the temple sanctuary, leave it out and do not measure it, because it has been given to the nations, and they will trample the holy city underfoot for 42 months."

    Who are these holy people spoken of in Dan 12:7? They are Christs brother, two witnesses. So what are "all these things" that come to a finish? Everything thing from 1-6...

    Dan 12:1-6 “During that time Miʹcha·el will stand up, the great prince who is standing in behalf of your people. And there will occur a time of distress such as has not occurred since there came to be a nation until that time. And during that time your people will escape, everyone who is found written down in the book. And many of those asleep in the dust of the earth will wake up, some to everlasting life and others to reproach and to everlasting contempt. “And those having insight will shine as brightly as the expanse of heaven, and those bringing the many to righteousness like the stars, forever and ever. “As for you, Daniel, keep the words secret, and seal up the book until the time of the end. Many will rove about, and the true knowledge will become abundant.” Then I, Daniel, looked and saw two others standing there, one on this bank of the stream and one on the other bank of the stream. Then one said to the man clothed in linen, who was up above the waters of the stream: “How long will it be to the end of these marvelous things?”

    All of the things listed above will occur as soon as the dashing to pieces of the holy ones occurs at the end of the 1260 days. Our Lord goes riding to concur his enemies, at which point the events of the 7th trumpet/Last trumpet occur and all that involves, from the dead in Christ rising to our Lord established as king.

    Rev 11:15 "The seventh angel blew his trumpet. And there were loud voices in heaven, saying: “The kingdom of the world has become the Kingdom of our Lord and of his Christ, and he will rule as king forever and ever."

    Then (real quick) we know the holy place will be restored at the end of the 2300 days, but the disgusting thing stands in the holy place 30 days after the 1260 days end, meaning it must be in existence by then, but then it is completely cleansed the first day of the new world. The holy place representative of the temple sanctuary and the earthly realm, where the Most Holy that of heaven. Then the 1335th day is simply a continuation of the 1260 and 90, for they all start the same day.

    Phew... That's as basic as I can make it in one post, if you wish me to define anything further, I will do so....
     
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    BreakTheWalls

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    I won't have to say it, because they will know, that no one knows the day or hour. The only thing they can proclaim is that they will die after 3 1/2 years. The Boreans, when they confronted Paul, were fact checking the scriptures, and everything Paul said was in harmony with it. The Two Witnesses will be the same, they will not proclaim any timelines other than what has been given to us in the New Testament. They will not know what day or hour Jesus is coming, and if an angel or someone else proclaims to you a gospel that is not from the scriptures, let him be accursed.

    Jesus could very well return during the 3 1/2 years.
     
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    john

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    Quote - I believe Christ Jesus began ruling in heaven the moment he sat on his Fathers throne – end quote

    So do I.

    Quote - I believe he begins ruling the earthly realm in the time of the end at the last trumpet. – end quote

    So do I in a sense but to be more precise is that it is not that he begins ruling at that time but it is that the heavenly kingdom that he is already ruling has now become the kingdom of the world.

    In any case my question was about you saying ‘crowned as king’. Sense I view that time as being when he began ruling heaven; I don’t view him being crowned a second time at the 7th trumpet but rather at that time the heavenly now becomes a long awaited reality for the world. I guess I’m just splitting hairs but I was thrown off by the way you phased it ‘Lord is crowned as king over the earthly kingdom’.

    Quote - Now, to your question of Jesus beginning his rule at the end of the 1260 days – end quote

    I don’t believe I ask that. But anyhow what about…

    Quote - The pushing and war that brings about the 8th king does not occur till deep in the time of the end. – end quote

    Do you believe the KON is the same entity as the 8th king or do think they are two separate?

    Do you believe the wild beast is the same entity as the 8th king or do think they are two separate?
     
    Last edited: Aug 9, 2017
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    Joshuastone7

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    I'll have to finish answering your questions in a second posts here...

    In short I believe the tribulation will start at the beginning of the 2300 days, but the great tribulation will only be 10 days long close to the very end.

    I believe the 2300 start with the hurling of denunciations, then since the 1335th day ends the same day as the 2300th, you can count back to get the day the 1260 days start, for the 1335, 1290 and 1260 all start the same day.

    I believe Jesus is crowned (earthly kingdom) at the end of the 1260th day, and the dead in Christ are raised, and those alive transfigured, but they wait on earth 40 days until Jesus is revealed in the clouds and Armageddon begins, 40 days after he is crowned, and 10 days after the disgusting thing is placed. The 10 days after the 1290 days end is the great tribulation.

    That's fair to say...

    Yes... I believe the death stroke has already occurred, and that death stroke was Babylon the Great being reborn, but I do not believe the entire beast has entered the abyss and come out as the 8th king yet, I do not believe those events are the same.

    I believe the beast in Rev 13 is a conglomerate of all the beasts in Dan 7, and the second beast in Rev 13 is the fourth beast and little horn separated out from Dan 7. I believe KOTN is included in some kind of conglomerate along with the KOTS and Babylon the Great, when they eat at one table lying to each other (Dan 9:27), as we see in Rev 13, but we don't see that beast as the 8th yet in Rev 13, hence the 7 heads and no 8th. Is this the EU, UN and the like? I don't know yet...

    Keep in mind in scripture that there are two attacks. One when the constant feature is removed, and second when the holy ones are attacked, that's the time frame between the 1290 days, and what most miss when looking at prophecy...

    Of course as always, in my opinion...
     
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    john

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    Quote - Jesus could very well return during the 3 1/2 years. – end quote


    Nope, not if you think the 3 ½ years are the time frame of the GT.
     
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    Joshuastone7

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    If the book of Dan is unsealed in the time of the end, including the 12th chapter, then what does that mean?

    Dan 12:4 "As for you, Daniel, keep the words secret, and seal up the book until the time of the end."
     
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    Joshuastone7

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    It's because he's handed a crown in the end...

    Rev 6:2 "And I saw, and look! a white horse, and the one seated on it had a bow; and a crown was given him, and he went out conquering and to complete his conquest."

    But I suppose you have to believe this represents our Lord.
     

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