Discussing Prophecy

Discussion in 'Bible Prophecy' started by SingleCell, Aug 8, 2017.

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    john

    john Member

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    Ok, I am holding off on replying to that post because I need to know your view on something that will aid me in my reply.


    You don’t talk much about Gog’s attack or the Northerners attack.


    When in your timeline do you place the calamity in Joel’s account coming upon Jehovah’s people?
     
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    Joshuastone7

    Joshuastone7 Administrator Staff Member

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    There are two crops attacked...

    The first crop is the constant feature being removed, and then the "later crop" that of the rebuilt temple/Jerusalem of Dan 9, as Christs brother gather back together. There are two crops according to Amos, which means the attack in Joel is the first crop going down when the constant feature is removed, but then Jehovah turns his attention back to them and draws them back, into a new crop that facilitates the final attack against Christs brothers that brings Armageddon, the touching of Jehovah's eyeball. He forms another locust swarm at that time, that doesn't succeed in eating the later crop.

    Amos 7:1 "This is what the Sovereign Lord Jehovah showed me: Look! He formed a locust swarm when the late crop was beginning to come up. This was the later crop after the king’s hay had been cut."

    Then the second attack of the new swarm against the new crop, but we will find out later it will not succeed against this later crop.

    Amos 7:2 "When the swarm finished eating up the vegetation of the land, I said: “O Sovereign Lord Jehovah, please forgive! How can Jacob survive? For he is weak!”

    Okay let's talk about the locusts further, but let me start with the Vegetation.

    The account at Amos 7:2 reads; "When the swarm finished eating up the vegetation of the land"

    Now we read in verse three that this will not happen; "It will not happen, Jehovah said." (Amos 7:3)

    We will now take a look at the account in Rev; "They were told not to harm the vegetation of the earth or any green plant or any tree." (Rev 9:4) So here we have the completion of Jehovah's promise that the vegetation would not be harmed after the fifth trumpet blows.

    Now what or who is this vegetation? We find that here; "How can Jacob survive?" (Amos 7:2b) Jacob is the vegetation. Jesus being the decedent of Jacob we have a representation of Israel itself, or said otherwise the remaining of those of Jesus's brothers along with those with them here on earth.

    Now, who is it that forms this swarm of locusts in Amos 7:1? It is the preceding individual mentioned in that of Jehovah. So we must understand at this point that it is Jehovah himself that forms the locusts. If we read at Joel 2:25 we find; "And I will make compensation to you for the years That the swarming locust, the unwinged locust, the voracious locust, and the devouring locust have eaten, My great army that I sent among you." So the locust army is Jehovah's, and as we know he sends his locust army against his first crop for their "transgression".

    So then that begs the question, who is the king mentioned in Amos 7:1? It has to be Jehovah. Jehovah is the King of eternity and it's his army of locusts, as well it is his spiritual Israel (crop) that is cut when the constant feature (hay) is removed, that first crop.

    Let's look back at Amos; "This was the later crop after the kings hay had been cut." (Amos 7:1b) The kings hay in ancient Israel would have been cut to feed the kings horses. So what prophetic significance does this have? Well Jehovah's locusts are seen as in appearance of horses in Rev 9; "And in appearance the locusts resembled horses prepared for battle" (Rev 9:7) So what was cut that fed Jehovah's horses? That would be the constant feature that is destined to go down, the first crop. (Dan 12:11) The hay would be the "food" from the Watchtower and publications that feed his people spiritually (if you believe the constant feature is the WT for example).

    Amos 7:1; "Look! He formed a locust swarm when the late crop was beginning to come up." This is a second locust swarm, after the other crop was long gone. This will be during the gathering together, the call to rebuild Jerusalem of Dan 9, and the building of a new temple one of the two witnesses have a privilege in, Zerubbabel. Then there is another attack that doesn't succeed, by that second swarm against the later crop.
     
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    john

    john Member

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    OK…let me try again…LOL:)


    Short and simple answers PLEASE.


    When in your timeline do you place the calamity in Joel’s account coming upon Jehovah’s people?


    And let me ask another question here since you say this all the time but I am not really clear exactly what you mean…


    Quote - So let's say the WT and it's publications are the constant feature. With an end time fulfillment of the WT being removed, - end quote


    When you say the ‘WT being removed’, are you referring to the WTS as an organization… like what has happen in Russian but on a world wide scale or are you referring to the actually ‘WT magazine’ not being published any more but the WTS organization with its world headquarters, kingdom halls, etc… still legal and maintained and occupied by WTS/JW’s?
     
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    Joshuastone7

    Joshuastone7 Administrator Staff Member

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    At the beginning of the 1260 days.

    Just like in Russia, no more WTS, all kingdom Halls sold and no more organization world wide.
     
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    john

    john Member

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    Ok thank you. I am glad I asked the second question because based on your placing the calamity at the start of the 1,260, if you said anything less then:
    I thought I was going to have to remind you of all that is said in Joel…LOL:)



    Where in your timeline do you place Joel 3:2?

    [I will also collect together all the nations and bring them down to the low plain of Je·hosh´a·phat; and I will put myself on judgment with them there on account of my people and my inheritance Israel, whom they scattered among the nations; and they apportioned out my own land.]

    What do you mean by ‘the call to rebuild Jerusalem’?
     
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    Joshuastone7

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    Just before the end of the 1260 days.

    The verse just before would be the gathering back.

    Joel 3:1 "For look! in those days and in that time, When I bring back the captives of Judah and Jerusalem."

    I believe the 70 weeks have a fulfillment in the time of the end as well. You could just as well say "the call to rebuild the constant feature." Meaning that after the WTS is gone, there will be a call 69 weeks before our Lord receives the earthly kingdom to rebuild the spiritual Jerusalem, a new earthly organization literally fulfilling the weeks of Dan 9.

    And it will be in that newly rebuilt true spiritual temple that the disgusting thing will be placed, and the fulfillment of that will be the 8th king coming against the remaining of Christs brother to kill them, thinking Jehovah will leave them alone if they cut their cords free.

    Psm 2:3,4 "They say: “Let us tear off their shackles And throw off their ropes!” The One enthroned in the heavens will laugh: Jehovah will scoff at them."
     
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    john

    john Member

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    Ok…


    I am glad you cited Joel 3:1. I intentionally left it off but planned to bring it up later. But first in regards to 3:2, you place this just before the 1,260 ends but what do you say about the fact that it says that this is the time that Jehovah in now putting himself on judgment with the nations…wouldn’t that make that time Armageddon?


    And do you view Gog’s attack as the same as the Northerner’s or is it a separate?

    If separate, where do you place Gog’s attack in your timeline?
     
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    Joshuastone7

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    This gathering of the nations together coincides with the 8th king coming together at the 6th trumpet and 6th bowl, and this is after the fourth beast, KOTS goes down in loss to the KOTN in Dan 11:40 and the 5th trumpet and bowl. I believe the trumpets and bowls are the same moment.

    Rev 9:1 “And the fifth angel blew his trumpet. And I saw a star that had fallen from heaven to the earth, and the key of the pit of the abyss was given him.”

    Rev 16:10 “And the fifth one poured out his bowl upon the throne of the wild beast. And its kingdom became darkened, and they began to gnaw their tongues for their pain.”

    The beast from the sea goes into the abyss, and out. Ending the rain of the KOTS...

    Rev 9:13, 14 “And the sixth angel blew his trumpet. And I heard one voice out of the horns of the golden altar that is before God say to the sixth angel, who had the trumpet: “Untie the four angels that are bound at the great river Euphrates.”

    Rev 16:12 “And the sixth one poured out his bowl upon the great river Euphrates, and its water was dried up, that the way might be prepared for the kings from the rising of the sun.”

    Rev 16:16 "And they gathered them together to the place that is called in Hebrew Armageddon."

    The nations are gathered together for Armageddon at the point just before the 1260 days end, but think of all the things that happen just before and during the 7th trumpet. Everything from from the brothers of Christ resurrected, to our Lord gaining earthly rule, to the two witnesses being killed, Babylon falling, there is a lot going on at the end of the 1260 days, and that's after the nations gather together for Armageddon. Just because their gathering, doesn't mean it's begun, they prepare for the war. That is the reason for the 8th king.

    I mean just think for a second, how can Armageddon be at the end of the 1260 days if the two witnesses lay dead for 3.5 after the 1260 end? Obviously the end of this system continues on after the 1260 days end, right?
     
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    john

    john Member

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    do you view Gog’s attack as the same as the Northerner’s or is it a separate?

    If separate, where do you place Gog’s attack in your timeline?

    :)
     
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    Joshuastone7

    Joshuastone7 Administrator Staff Member

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    Eze 38 or Rev 20?
     
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    Joshuastone7

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    I'm assuming you mean Ezekiel, and that account is speaking of the placing of the disgusting thing, 1290 days after the constant feature is removed, 30 days after the 1260 end...
     
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    john

    john Member

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    Ok so you are saying that the Northerner's attack comes about at the start of the 1,260 days which results in:

    Then at the end of the 1,260 days Jehovah will bring back the captives (view as so due to the Northerner’s attack as the nations are said to be ruling over them during this time which would mean that this time frame would have to corresponded with Rev 11:2,13:5.) and also then at that time gathers the nations together in order to put himself on judgment with them (the nations) for the reason of ruling over his people the recent 42-months. Then 30 days later in regards to these newly restored captives (30 days restored), Gog is now going to say:


    [“I shall go up against the land of open rural country. I shall come in upon those having no disturbance, dwelling in security, all of them dwelling without wall, and they do not have even bar and doors.” 12 It will be to get a big spoil and to do much plundering, in order to turn your hand back upon devastated places reinhabited and upon a people gathered together out of the nations, [one] that is accumulating wealth and property, [those] who are dwelling in the center of the earth…Is it to do much plundering that you have congregated your congregation, in order to carry off silver and gold, to take wealth and property, to get a very great spoil?”’]


    So within 30 days all that was lost in the 1,260 days will be restored so Gog can now attempt to take it?


    And let’s keep in mind that the calamity from the Northerner comes upon Jehovah’s people as a punishment which the intended results are achieved and that is to get his people to repent and be forgiven…that is why they will be restored.


    So how is it that when Gog comes upon these restore, repentant, forgiven, people that it is said that the reason Jehovah allowed/brought on Gog to attack his people:


    [“it was because of their error that they, the house of Israel, went into exile, on account of the fact that they behaved unfaithfully toward me, so that I concealed my face from them and gave them into the hand of their adversaries, and they kept falling, all of them, by the sword. 24 According to their uncleanness and according to their transgressions I did with them, and I kept concealing my face from them”]


    BTW…side point, note ‘according to their transgressions’. This makes me think of [Daniel 8: 12 And an army itself was gradually given over, together with the constant feature, because of transgression.]


    Also if Gog’s attack starts at 1,290 and there is just 45 days left until 1,335 then when will Jehovah step in to rescue his people from Gog? How long does he allow this attack to go on that his people are now once again viewed as captives/in exile?


    Joel
    6 For there is a nation that has come up into my land,… 25 …my great military force that I have sent among YOU.

    Joel
    17 “Between the porch and the altar let the priests, the ministers of Jehovah, weep and say, ‘Do feel sorry, O Jehovah, for your people, and do not make your inheritance a reproach, for nations to rule over them…1 “For, look! in those days and in that time, when I shall bring back the captive ones of Judah and Jerusalem

    Joel
    17 And YOU people will have to know that I am Jehovah YOUR God, residing in Zion my holy mountain. And Jerusalem must become a holy place; and as regards strangers, they will no more pass through her.

    Ezekiel
    16 And you will be bound to come up against my people Israel, like clouds to cover the land. In the final part of the days it will occur, and I shall certainly bring you against my land,

    Ezekiel
    23 And the nations will have to know that it was because of their error that they, the house of Israel, went into exile, on account of the fact that they behaved unfaithfully toward me, so that I concealed my face from them and gave them into the hand of their adversaries, and they kept falling, all of them, by the sword. 24 According to their uncleanness and according to their transgressions I did with them, and I kept concealing my face from them.’25 “Therefore this is what the Sovereign Lord Jehovah has said, ‘Now is when I shall bring back the captive ones of Jacob and actually have mercy upon all the house of Israel; and I will show exclusive devotion for my holy name. 26 And they will have borne their humiliation and all their unfaithfulness with which they have acted toward me, when they dwell on their soil in security, with no one to make [them] tremble. 27 When I bring them back from the peoples and I actually collect them together out of the lands of their enemies, I will also sanctify myself among them before the eyes of many nations.’
     
    Last edited: Aug 19, 2017
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    Joshuastone7

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    No, 69 weeks before the end of the 1260 is the call to rebuild, and that's 483 days.
     
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    Joshuastone7

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    Yes, the northerner attack is at the beginning of the 1260 days for the transgression which removes the constant feature.

    Because that was why they originally went into captivity, before their restoration.
     
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    Joshuastone7

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    The great tribulation, the attack on the restored holy place, the disgusting thing being placed, is the final attack that shortens the end time when Jehovah puts an end to this system. The attack appears to only be ten days, then Armageddon begins. This is the attack on the later crop after the kings hay was cut, that will not succeed. According to the chronology that I have presented, Armageddon lasts 35 days.
     
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    john

    john Member

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    69 weeks is 16 months (1 year 4 months), so you’re saying that of the 42 months (3 years 6 months) that had be given to the nations to trample, that after only 26 months (2 years 2 months) of those 42, that Jehovah’s people will be restored?

    Is the restoring going on while at the same time being trampled?
     
    Last edited: Aug 19, 2017
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    john

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    In the context of Gog (chapters 38 &39) When did they originally go into captivity? When were they restored?
     
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    Joshuastone7

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    No, Dan 9 simply says that's when the call comes. Maybe the two witnesses have a big speech before a large crowd? IDK....

    I'm saying the two witnesses appear to have 483 days to rebuild before the end of the 1260 days. The attack by Gog would be 513 days after the call to rebuild, that's 30 days after the 1260 end.

    I'm not sure the objection...

    Hagg 1:2-8 "This is what Jehovah of armies says, ‘These people say, “The time has not yet come for the house of Jehovah to be built.”’ And the word of Jehovah again came through Hagʹgai the prophet, saying: “Is it the time for you to dwell in your paneled houses, while this house lies in ruins? Now this is what Jehovah of armies says, ‘Set your heart on your ways. You have sown much seed, but you harvest little. You eat, but it is not to satisfaction. You drink, but you do not drink your fill. You put on clothing, but no one gets warm. The one who hires himself out puts his wages in a bag full of holes.’” “This is what Jehovah of armies says, ‘Set your heart on your ways.’ “‘Go up to the mountain and bring in lumber. And build the house, so that I may take pleasure in it and I may be glorified,’ Jehovah says.”
     
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    Joshuastone7

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    You ask about verse 17 of Joel 3, when no one will pass through Jerusalem again, that's after the 1335 days and the harvest, that's after Armageddon. Just read the previous verses, like 13;

    Joel 3:13 "Thrust in a sickle, for the harvest is ripe."
     

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