God's only-begotten Son; What is he?

Discussion in 'General Discussions' started by John S, Jul 13, 2016.

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    John S

    John S Member

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    The book of John explains in chapter 1 what Jesus is; God's only direct son...a god...God (but not Almighty) ...and not an angel. He shared in the creation; actually Jehovah gave him the privilege of creating mankind , and every other creature, universe, ...ALL things as John 1 states.


    "All things were created for him, and through him."

    Why the WT concept that Jesus is an 'angel' ever got steam-rolling is another evidence of how easily we were hoodwinked. Jesus created the angels, the universe, mankind; all. He is certainly NO angel.

    All this John explains, "in the beginning"....mirroring Genesis 1:1 .."in the beginning"

    We should be reverent of him as God, also...a second God , although created as a Son by Father Jah. Not the eternal Father who had no beginning, but like God, and now all powerful, just as he was during Creation of everything.

    Not an angel...never was one...never will be, as far as I reckon.

    We should worship him as God, too. And I am using the capital on purpose for reverence' sake. WT demotes him to angel status, and this delights the envious wicked angel Satan....who was never a serious contender for godship, nor Jesus' reality as God alongside Father Jah: Almighty God.

    Do you agree?
     
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    Frank Conger

    Frank Conger Guest

    Hi John:

    On what basis do you "assume" that "in beginning" in John 1:1 is the very same as "in the beginning" in Genesis 1:1?. In Genesis it says that God (which God, Jehovah or Jesus?) created the heavens and the earth", correct. Well in John 1:1 it says that "the word" created the "world". If you look in a Greek interlinear you will see it actully says he created "this system". Genesis 1:1 and John 1:1 are two very different creations and "beginnings". When you are talking about or writing about two different beginnings you can still say "in the beginning". What you have to discern is what beginning, the beginning of everything, or the beginning of the "system"?
     
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    SingleCell

    SingleCell Experienced Member

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    Agreed, mostly - if you read Charles Russell's books he elucidated a very similar concept to what you explained here.

    I have no problem calling Jesus God in so far as he is on Jehovah's throne until 1 Corinthians 15 (enemies under footstool)

    Then Jehovah takes the throne back; and Jesus gives it willingly.

    "But when all things will have been subjected to him, then the Son himself will also subject himself to the One who subjected all things to him, that God may be all things to everyone."

    I've discussed the trinity with so many people, and seen it's massive role in blinding them about the ENTIRE Bible, that I understand why the Watchtower has made sure to delineate between Jehovah and Jesus and focus more on the Hebrews 1 conception, than the John 1 conception.

    Good post though John, a very important subject, and do agree that the WT has unfocused from Jesus too much. (though they seem to be unwinding that a bit these days)
     
    Last edited: Jul 13, 2016
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    SingleCell

    SingleCell Experienced Member

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    Interesting point Frank, I think you're on to something here.
     
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    Joshuastone7

    Joshuastone7 Administrator Staff Member

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    Agreed, in fact I see the "In the beginning" in Gen 1 as a separate time as the creative days, and could be billions of years.
     
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    Frank Conger

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    If Jesus was the first Creation by Jehovah God, then Jesus was not "with God" in the beginning, he was with him "after" his beginning. But the "beginning" in John which most people "assume" is the same as the beginning in Genesis is nothing of the sort.

    By his coming forward and saying 'here I am send me', Jesus in essence "created" the system of things by giving it a valid, legal, just reason to go on. Had Jesus or no other everlasting being had come forward to ransom Adam, then none of us would have even existed. So, you see it really is all about covenants. Jesus covenant with God to give his everlasting angelic life for mankind "created" the construct that we live in today. Jehovah could have very easily switched of Adam and Eve's reproductive capabilities and they would have lived out their days lonely and empty. The system would have never gotten life.

    By this Jesus is the maker of all that we see around us, including us. His willingness to provide the ransom and the salvation covenant with God and with Adam gave birth to this system.
     
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    Joshuastone7

    Joshuastone7 Administrator Staff Member

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    Clearly John 1:1 is before Gen 1:1. Gen 1:1 was speaking only of the beginning of this physical universe, John 1:1 is speaking the beginning of creation period.
     
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    Frank Conger

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    Now, I think I have heard everything. Joshua, that is preposterous. John, which is a "gospel" account of Jesus earthly life and ministry is first an account of the creation prior to the creation of "the heavens and the earth". I think you may be the only person who believes that, but of course I could be wrong. Now, I have heard everything.
     
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    Joshuastone7

    Joshuastone7 Administrator Staff Member

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    Everyone I know including the WTS believes John 1:1 is before Gen 1:1. Jesus was the first creation by God before this universe.

    Seems simple to me.
     
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    Frank Conger

    Frank Conger Guest

    So, God lied when he said in Genesis 1:1 "In the beginning" because there already was a beginning, when Michael was created? Is that what you are saying? Anybody else out there on the board believe this what Joshua has just propounded? Am I the only one that thinks it's total hogwash?
     
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    Joshuastone7

    Joshuastone7 Administrator Staff Member

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    Gen 1:1 only pertains to the heavens and the earth like it says.
     
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    Frank Conger

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    If there was "a beginning", any beginning before that 'beginning' expressed at Genesis 1:1 then that was "NOT" the beginning. Now, John 1:1 can say it was "the beginning" because it was not the beginning of "the heavans and the earth", no, it was the beginning of this system of things of alienated man bought back by the ransom and the "beginning" of this system of things. That's exactly what John is writing.
     
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    Frank Conger

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    The heavens, and everything in it, including Jesus was created in Genesis 1:1. The spirit realm was created first, before space time. Space time was created when Jehovah created "the earth" which represents the physical universe. Jesus or MICHAEL was created during that same beginning. There are not two beginnings of the heavens and the earth. That is all one continuous creative act from start to finish.
     
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    Joshuastone7

    Joshuastone7 Administrator Staff Member

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    Wrong, and I'll prove it...

    Col 1:15 "He is the image of the invisible God, the firstborn of all creation; because by means of him all other things were created in the heavens and on the earth, the things visible and the things invisible, whether they are thrones or lordships or governments or authorities. All other things have been created through him and for him."

    If Jesus was the very first creation by God, and everything else was created by Jesus, then clearly Jesus was already created before the beginning of the creation of the heavens and earth. It's simple chronology...

    Rev 3:14 "“To the angel of the congregation in La·o·di·ceʹa write: These are the things that the Amen says, the faithful and true witness, the beginning of the creation by God."

    As I said, clearly Jesus was the one who created the heavens and the earth, he is the word and the source of the Bible itself. Jesus would have been created before the beginning of the creation of the heavens and the earth, just as Gen 1:1 says.

    Gen 1:1 " In the beginning God created the heavens and the earth."

    Gen 1:1 is only talking about the creation of what it says, the heavens and earth. It says it right there.
     
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    Frank Conger

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    If Jesus was the very first creation by God then he was not with God in the beginning, he was there after the beginning. Being with him at the beginning implies that he was already created when God started creation which is impossible. He was either there when God started creating or he was there just "after" God started creating, you can't have it both ways Joshua.
     
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    Frank Conger

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    You are trying to push a square peg into a round hole again. I'm finished with this discussion, you lack logic.
     
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    Joshuastone7

    Joshuastone7 Administrator Staff Member

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    Being the first creation means he was there...lol "He is the beginning of the creation by God" denotes the act of creation, it doesn't say "Just before the beginning".

    Jesus was the beginning of the creation by God because he was the first thing created, and that makes him present for it, because he is the thing being created...lol The beginning was the creation.

    I'm not sure why it seems difficult to understand, after all even the Watchtower holds this to be true.

    Nothing else would exist unless Jesus was created first, because all other things are through him.
     
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    Frank Conger

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    You win
     
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    Joshuastone7

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    No one wins, our goal should be truth, no? The word isn't ours...
     
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    Frank Conger

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    You have the truth, the whole truth and nothing but the truth. Besides, it's what the Watchtower believes and they couldn't be wrong, or could they?
     
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