Gods people back In Israel

Discussion in 'Bible Prophecy' started by Domenic, May 4, 2015.

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    Domenic

    Domenic Guest

    In 1948, the world declared, “God chosen people are back in Israel. The prophecy is fulfilled.†Being a sinner, I have not only come to know Father, I have also come to know Satan…the trickster. The prophecy was not fulfilled in 1948. God’s people were the twelve tribes known as Israel. Each tribe has its own name. The tribe of Judah returned to Palestine in 1948. The word Jew comes from the people of the tribe of Judah. When Jesus was on earth he was rejected by the tribe of Judah, and killed. Jehovah had a covenant with the twelve tribes that would last forever. Judah’s rejection of Jesus broke that covenant…thus Jesus gave the tribes a new covenant. The tribe of Judah was removed from their position as one of the twelve tribes, and their position was given to all other people of the world. Satan has deceived the world into believing the prophecy has been fulfilled…he has something in mind? Why are all the tribes known as Jews? That name should apply only to the tribe of Judah, not the other eleven. Here is a close look at Israel today. Their flag bares the Star of David. David never had a Star. David’s son Solomon had that Star in his later years when he was into black magic. The Star is from Egypt. It is the sign of Satan. To this day the tribe of Judah still rejects Jesus. Are Gods people back in the Promised Land? What do you think?
     
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    Jan Active Member

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    Yes I see the return of hebrews to Israel as a fulfillment of Bible prophecy.
     
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    4winds

    4winds Guest

    After all of the Christian prophecy complex fails, such as Bethel premature expectations and the "rapture" escape hatch from tribulation, the "Israel" prop will be the last carrot to lead the remaining die-hards of the Christendom delusion sector, to world government.

    This is because God will let the whole thing go all the way. The "Israel" decoy, will be Christendom's last bullet, as it is "restored" into the 666 final abomination as the crown jewel of 8th King world government.

    In the process the whole Christian prophecy complex will have been discredited, aiding the final drying up of the waters to only the zombies remaining in Christendom.

    In time the final warning will expose the true danger of the fleshly "nation of Israel" decoy. There are a number of years remaining in which the premature prophecies will all be tested to failure. Instead, world government will complete, state it final "world peace" (and security", and proceed to "bless" "Israel" before the world, for that sector of deception, in an overall scheme to present the Satanic whole decoy as "God's Kingdom" and "Zion".

    Satan and the demons may very well show up to be the "Christ and all his angels" final decoy. But it is all premature hoaxing to cloak the decoys. The thing will run the full course of prophecy.
     
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    SingleCell

    SingleCell Experienced Member

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    Well said 4winds, I've reached the same conclusion. (with one exception found in Zechariah 12)
     
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    Joshuastone7

    Joshuastone7 Administrator Staff Member

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    "Israel" became all of mankind through the keys Peter held. The physical nation of Israel today is nothing but a pipe dream set up by the western world, and has nothing to do with prophecy in the time of the end.

    Acts 10:9-16 "The next day as they were continuing on their journey and were approaching the city, Peter went up to the housetop about the sixth hour to pray. But he became very hungry and wanted to eat. While they were preparing the meal, he fell into a trance and saw heaven opened and something descending like a great linen sheet being let down by its four corners on the earth; and in it were all sorts of four-footed animals and reptiles of the earth and birds of heaven. Then a voice said to him: “Get up, Peter, slaughter and eat!â€￾ But Peter said: “Not at all, Lord, because I have never eaten anything defiled and unclean.â€￾ And the voice spoke again to him, the second time: “Stop calling defiled the things God has cleansed.â€￾ This happened a third time, and immediately it was taken up into heaven."

    The very next verse shows us the moment "Israel" became all mankind and no longer a genetic people.

    Acts 10:17 "While Peter was still perplexed about what the vision he had seen could mean, just then the men sent by Cornelius asked where Simon’s house was and stood there at the gate."

    The moment Cornelius was baptized, "Israel" in prophecy became all mankind who serve God.
     
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    What do you say about Brother Russells extended preaching tours about Biblical Zionism across the world. And to add that was one of the few predictions of br. Russell that actually became true, the reestablishment of the nation of Israel in Palestine. Unfortunately during the rise of Nazism in 1930:ies br. Rutherford seemingly lost faith in these prophecies. And declared br Russell was mislead by Satan to understand these prophcies literally. But only to be wrong, because just after the second world war the Jewish state was formed in Palestine.
     
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    SingleCell

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    In a grand and spiritual sense, yes, absolutely.

    Regardless, according to the prophecy in Romans 11 and Zechariah 12, Jehovah IS going to restore a portion of literal Israel during the time of the end.

    "A partial dulling of senses has come upon Israel until the full number of people of the nations has come in"

    For God has confined all of them together in disobedience so that he might show all of them mercy.

    "True, with respect to the good news, they are enemies for your sakes; but with respect to God’s choosing, they are beloved for the sake of their forefathers."

    AND

    “I will pour out on the house of David and on the inhabitants of Jerusalem the spirit of favor and supplication,

    and they will look to the one whom they pierced,


    and they will wail over him as they would wail over an only son;
    and they will grieve bitterly over him as they would grieve over a firstborn son

    ----------

    Until this is recognized, the identity of the two witnesses and the nature of prophecy will be clouded. Literal Israel definitely exists in prophecy. [just not the Zionist Anglo-Cabal version]

    There is no other (that I can see) way of reading the above prophecies.
     
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    Joshuastone7

    Joshuastone7 Administrator Staff Member

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    You may remember that I believe there are two events spoken of in prophecy that explains all of this. There was the moment Jerusalem was surrounded, and then 1290 days later when the disgusting thing "Rome" entered the temple.

    Therefore this translates into the two attacks we see in Joel.

    Zech 12 speaks of the second attack at the end of the 1290 days when the spiritual Israel has been restored after Jesus is enthroned. The moment the world tries to cut it's bands from God by killing his people. This is the moment it's as if touching Jehovah's eyeball.

    Dan 12:11 is speaking of the time period between the WTS going down because of transgression and the world coming against the restored people of God in the time of the end.

    "And from the time that the constant feature has been removed and the disgusting thing that causes desolation has been put in place, there will be 1,290 days."

    This has nothing to do with the physical nation of Israel, they have no faith in Christ therefore no hope of survival. Without faith in Christ the entire faith of Judaism is doomed without any promises from God.



    Zech 12 is speaking of the two hopes. Judah are the anointed and the inhabitants of Jerusalem are those in the kingdom here on earth, and this difference between Judah and Jerusalem carries all throughout prophecy of the end as the two hopes. It's the most holy and holy place comparison.


    Now in chronology the moment the holy spirit is poured out is at the end of the 1260 days, there hasn't been a people for his name during these days, hence why the Two Witnesses prophecy in sackloth. Now since we also know that once Cornelious was baptized, that brought into true worship, Roman soldiers and citizens of all nations.

    There is a point in the time of the end that there will be a calling to rebuild the spiritual Israel. Gathering to these Two Witnesses will include all of the world of mankind, represented by those outside the Jewish faith, and these outsiders were the ones that pierced Jesus. Once many ones not unlike Cornelious (the roman soldier) receive holy spirit at the end of the 1260 days, they will literally look upon the one they had pierced.

    Zech 12 is speaking of Judah as those of the 144,000 and the inhabitants of Jerusalem as those who will inhabit the kingdom on earth, and those who
    pierced Jesus are all those who were never part of the true worship of Jehovah, but that are gathered out of the nations of the world into the new spiritual Jerusalem in the time of the end.

    Also keep in mind that the chronology of Zech 12 says that the Holy Spirit is poured out on the house of David and Jerusalem before they look upon the one they pierced. Therefore Jehovah is not going to anoint all the Jews who reject Christ. Quite an easy paradox to see there.

    The concept of the wailing and mourning is the same as your understanding as well, they will realize at the moment the Holy Spirit is poured out on them that Jesus died for their sins. What was Thomas's reaction upon seeing Jesus after his resurrection? Although they will at that time feel regret for their sins the wailing will be a joyful time. You must remember this comes about by Holy Spirit being poured out, so it's not a negative thing. We also need to remember that these ones are non-Jews as explained in the last two posts...

    And "and all the families that are left remaining" clearly indicates after Armageddon.So with the evidence from John 19:33-37 that in fact the ones who look upon the ones they pierced are the Romans and not the Jews, and clear indication Jehovah pours out his Holy Spirit before these ones in Zech recognize Jesus, clearly shows that these are simply ones out of the world who are not of Jewish decent.

    This all comes back to Dan 12:11 to me, once we recognize those two events are separated by 1290 days then we see that the two witnesses will come on the world stage years before the disgusting thing is placed. The two witnesses will begin their work at the start of the 1290 days, the 8th king does not come against the true Israel until 1290 days later.
     
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    Joshuastone7

    Joshuastone7 Administrator Staff Member

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    As to the "Piercing" subject, we discussed that a while back, and this is where I ended on;

    "Okay, I am going to attempt the definitive finale of this subject. I have to agree with the writer here that Zech 12:10 could be speaking of "He" or "him" and it doesn't matter either way. It could imply Jesus, or Jehovah. What matters is who are "they" that look upon him and grieve.

    What I have also come to understand is we may never know the exact translation of Psalm 22:16, although I'm probably leaning 75% toward the NWT version given the structure of the scriptures before and after and the scrolls found over the years however, again I am beginning to come to the conclusion that this as well does not matter either way either. What matters is who "they" are in Zech 12. Let's go back there;

    “I will pour out on the house of David and on the inhabitants of Jerusalem the spirit of favor and supplication, and they will look to the one whom they pierced"

    Jerusalem has to be understood as the ones who are spoken of as "they". One, because of the chronological flow of this scripture and two, because the very next sentence reads;

    "and they will wail over him as they would wail over an only son; and they will grieve bitterly over him as they would grieve over a firstborn son"

    Now the reason this scripture fortifies whom "they" are is because those ones who "wail" are named next;

    "In that day the wailing in Jerusalem will be great,"

    Therefore the ones "wailing" are the very same ones who "pierced" the "He" or "Him" in verse 10.

    Now, others are spoken of in scripture as being pierced over Jesus's death, such as Mary; "so that the thoughts of many hearts will be revealed. And a sword will pierce your own soul too." (Luk 2:35) This can also apply to Jehovah himself upon seeing his only begotten son die on that torture stake.

    Now let's consider more about "they", look at what Paul said at Acts 2:36; "Therefore, let all the house of Israel know for a certainty that God made him both Lord and Christ, this Jesus whom you executed on a stake.â€￾ Obviously we know that Paul blamed the house of Israel for Jesus's death, which one could say that he was still considered part of, kinda. Okay the idea is to keep this simple and not complicated, so let's change directions a bit, I'll come back to that.

    We go back to Zech saying that "they" are the ones who pierced this one, and that "they" are Jerusalem. Now the only real place that we know for sure that this piercing took place is at John 19:33; "But on coming to Jesus, they saw that he was already dead, so they did not break his legs. But one of the soldiers jabbed (pierced) his side with a spear," The strange thing with this scripture is that this occurs after Acts 2:36. Remember Acts 2:36 says that Israel had Jesus killed on the torture steak, yet this scripture in John 19:33 says that after Jesus had died, the soldiers of Rome decided to Pierce him.

    So that begs the question. Who were "they" at that moment of Jesus's death. The Jewish leaders? Jesus's followers, including family and friends that were there? The Roman soldiers?

    Now let's look at Rev 1:7; "Look! He is coming with the clouds, and every eye will see him, and those who pierced him; and all the tribes of the earth will beat themselves in grief because of him. Yes, Amen." This scripture seems to separate out those who pierced Jesus from the rest of the world.

    So therefore now, the question is how can a spiritual Israel (as it's true meaning is in the time of the end) pierce the "He" or "him" in Zech 12:10? All prophecy has always had a first fulfillment and that takes us back to Paul, and that "kinda" I mentioned. Here Paul as an Israelite knew the truth and yet was trying to help others in Israel to understand what they had done and in fact even Paul himself could be considered one of those himself that pierced "He" or "him" when he watched over Stephen's death, and was still persecuting followers of Christ when Jesus was executed. So no doubt if Jesus would have returned in the time of Paul, he would have been one of those "wailing" as he looked upon the one he pierced. Could those whom pierced Jesus be those who recognize him and are forgiven by his sacrifice?

    Now, the next point has to be made that this Jerusalem has Jehovah's favor when he pours out his spirit upon them. In no way, and may I repeat again, in no way can this be the physical Jerusalem of today, because any thought that Jehovah would pour out his spirit of favor on a religion that has spent two millennium denying the only road to salvation is ludicrous. That would mean one would need to do nothing to enter eternal life, and Jehovah would simply force them to see Jesus and believe. I'm not going to get into that subject further because the correct understanding is that Jerusalem/Israel/House of David in the time of the end are spiritual truth made up of all those who have an accurate understanding.

    Again, who are "they" that have done the piercing in the time of the end? Let's use the translations who use "He" in Zech 12:10; (Of which there are many). This understanding says that it is Jehovah that is pierced. That is easily understood;

    Dan 8:11 "It exalted itself even against the Prince of the army, and from him the constant feature was taken away, and the established place of his sanctuary was thrown down."

    Dan 11:36 “The king will do as he pleases, and he will exalt himself and magnify himself above every god; and against the God of gods he will speak astonishing things."

    We know in the time of the end that Jehovah's people will bring shame on Jehovah's name when the world comes against them for their errors, and the constant feature is removed! Once the 1260 days are over and Holy Spirit is poured out in favor of Jerusalem in the time of the end "they" will understand fully their "operation of errors" that occurred before their Babylonian exile. This wailing of Zech 12 no doubt denotes that of regret for their sins.

    Now what if Zech 12 is speaking of Jesus himself as the one that is pierced instead of Jehovah? It still really doesn't matter, because we have the example of Paul and it clearly comes down to the fact that in our time there is an operation of error that permeates the true representatives of Jehovah on earth in that of Jehovah's Witnesses, and when the king of the north hurls denunciations (yet to happen), Jehovah's name will be besmirched in the public eye, and in fact leads to a situation in which Jesus must be impaled again for forgiveness.

    Is there forgiveness after knowing the truth and yet sinning? Heb 6:4-6; "For as regards those who were once enlightened and who have tasted the heavenly free gift and who have become partakers of holy spirit and who have tasted the fine word of God and powers of the coming system of things, but have fallen away, it is impossible to revive them again to repentance, because they nail the Son of God to the stake again for themselves and expose him to public shame."

    I have to say, and I have to pray fervently, yes!!! Jerusalem will be punished for their sins, and yet will be redeemed. This must show that Heb 6:4-6 is speaking of those who refuse to come back to Jehovah, because it seems clear in Zech 12 that those who did the piercing are forgiven and grieve of there errors!

    These scripture (in Zech 12) I think , must show us the ultimate love and forgiveness from Jehovah!"
     
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    SingleCell

    SingleCell Experienced Member

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    Some great insights Joshua!

    Not to be dogmatic about this, but I'm not sure chronology can answer what is an attribute question:

    a) Paul was explicitly saying that Israel, literal Israel, would be blind to the Christ until the 'people of the nations come in' (which is still going on)

    b) Zechariah prophesied explicitly that Jerusalem would realize they had pierced the messiah during the time of the end

    So, as you rightly stated, that unless they accept Christ they cannot be saved -- that is precisely what these prophecies are foretelling:

    Part of Israel, the literal descendents of Abraham, will accept Christ during the conclusion.

    Jehovah IS Loyal - as Paul prophesied BECAUSE of their forefathers.

    -------

    On a literal interpretation of the 'two witnesses' - they are operating IN Jerusalem during that period [Sodom and Egypt where the Lord was pierced].

    (not sure about this, but that is the literal statement in Revelation)

    This is why the two branches are prophesied to become ONE branch during the conclusion.

    “I will take the stick of Joseph, which is in the hand of E′phra·im, and the tribes of Israel who are with him (Israel), and I will join them to the stick of Judah (Christianity); and I will make them one stick, and they will become one in my hand.â€￾

    - Ezekiel 37:19
     
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    Joshuastone7

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    You may remember that I argued once before that one could say it was only the Romans who pierced Jesus and not the Jews. Remember that Jesus was already dead when the soldier pierced him. The Jews were responsible for having him killed, but specifically it was not the spear that killed him. Therefore it could be said that only the Roman soldiers were those who pierced him, not the Jews.

    But, if we get away from that for a moment, when it comes down to it and if we use the piercing as a metaphor, then it would involve anyone who is forgiven by Christs sacrifice, and therefore his impaling would be the same as his piercing. Heb 6:4-6; "For as regards those who were once enlightened and who have tasted the heavenly free gift and who have become partakers of holy spirit and who have tasted the fine word of God and powers of the coming system of things, but have fallen away, it is impossible to revive them again to repentance, because they nail the Son of God to the stake again for themselves and expose him to public shame."

    Either way you look at it, "they" who pierced him can not be the physical Jews alone.
     
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    Jan Active Member

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    That seems to be a logical conclusion to me too.
     
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    Joshuastone7

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    Hi Jan... :)

    Let me ask you a thought experiment. Do you believe that once Jesus comes to concur this world after being enthroned and has poured out Holy Spirit that Jesus would have found the Jewish religion waiting for him to open the door when he knocks?

    Are we not talking about a religion no different then let's say Satanism? Both of these religions deny Christ, and will continue to do so up to the moment they see him coming in the clouds. Now suddenly the entire religion/genetic people will suddenly convert, isn't the door closed at that point?

    Israel became all those believers in Christ once Cornelius was baptized. This is the very keys given to Peter. Jerusalem was destroyed and a million Jews died in 70 CE because they rejected the only way to god and had him killed. In no way has the religion of the Jews in the past 2000 years showed one ounce of concern for truth.

    Are you telling me that only the Jews in the time of the end would make it, and not those who died denying Christ for 2000 years?

    There are millions of reasons that Israel in prophecy after 70 CE is a metaphor for those who have faith in Christ sacrifice.
     
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    SingleCell

    SingleCell Experienced Member

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    Sorry to butt in, but no need for a thought experiment:

    For I do not want you to be unaware of this sacred secret, brothers,

    so that you do not become wise in your own eyes:

    A partial dulling of senses has come upon Israel until the full number of people of the nations has come in,

    and in this manner all Israel will be saved.

    - Romans 11:25-26

    Right from the Word of God -- Paul was explicitly talking about the Jews rejecting Christ, and is EXPLICITLY stating that God will save them after the "people of the nations" come into the fold.

    -------

    Regarding Israel adopting Satanism via the Kabalah, that is explainable in prophecy IMO, but I'll need to put together evidence.
     
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    Joshuastone7

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    1Cor 13:12 "For now we see in hazy outline by means of a metal mirror, but then it will be face-to-face. At present I know partially, but then I will know accurately, just as I am accurately known."

    Mth 28:19 "Go, therefore, and make disciples of people of all the nations, baptizing them in the name of the Father and of the Son and of the holy spirit,"
     
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    I have listened on youtube to some sincere Ortodox Jews and it seems possible that they would really welcome Jesus' second arrival and there are also some Messianic jews even Jehovah's witnesses in Israel that could finally fulfill that prophecy.

    I listened to one orthodox Jew who had fled to Netherlands from Israel. His family had lived in Isreal for centuries. But he was oposed to zionism because he believed the jews were punnished by God and not allowed to have their own kingdom until the much waited Messaih arrives. He had even severly suffered from being beaten severly by mossad agents in his home in The Netherland not so long ago.
     
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    SingleCell

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    Perhaps there is a spiritual interpretation ;)

    I'm not sure what it would be though, Paul was being pretty specific in Romans 11.

    It's odd that Israel as a nation exists, is hated, a factor behind the world's problems, and seemingly the two witnesses exist in Jerusalem for that concluding time period.
     
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    Frank Conger

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    Hi Singlecell:

    Joshua is correct, the Israel of God is the Israel that Paul is speaking of, but you also have a bit of what is actually meant. Remember, the calling into Israel is to prepare a wife for Christ, nothing more. Those 144,000 would make up that wife. Put together your scripture that Paul wrote with the scripture that says "and the first will be last and the last first". This scripture actually has more than one fulfillment but in the first century or in the first dispensation what was the order that people came into "Israel", the Bride of Christ? Was it not the house of Judah, then the house of Samaria, followed by the house of Jewish proselytes, then lastly the house of the Gentiles, correct?

    If that is indeed the case then in the last dispensation the first would be last and the last first. So in the 20th Century the first who were called into the Watchtower would have been gentiles, then prostelytes, then Samaritans, and lastly the house of Judah, which were the first to come in in the first century and will be the last to come in in the final century. So, the last ones who come into the bride will be people who have a Jewish lineage of some sort, whether they are practicing Jews, probably not. They will probably be Christians who at one time were Jews. Chew on that a while.

    Frank
     
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    SingleCell

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    That is precisely what Romans 11 seems to be saying! After the gentiles are sealed up, Israel will no longer have their senses dulled.

    Zechariah 12 also suggests that 1/4 of the 'houses' of Israel "and their women" recognize the Christ; I'm guessing this is the group whose senses are cleared, and the 'women' being members of the 144,000.

    (what that means in reality I'm not sure...)

    For this reason, I don't discount Israel playing a role in prophecy.
     
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    Joshuastone7

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    Let me ask you my friend;

    Does not Jesus's message seem to say over and over once he arrives it is too late for anyone to convert, such as the wise and stupid virgins parable?

    Are we trying to say that once Noah entered the ark and closed the door and it started to rain and people saw the prophecies coming true it wasn't to late to convert and some could have still survived after seeing proof?

    There are so many parables from Jesus that tell us you must serve Jehovah in truth through Christ before he return that I don't even know which ones to post first.

    IMO, I would say that there is no way anyone can wait till there is physical evidence of Christ standing in front of them to convert, let alone the fact that not even all who confess him will make it either. (Mth 7:23)
     

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