“In the beginning God created the heavens and the earth.†(Gen 1:1 NWT) How long was that period of time? First of all, this is a synopsis which doesn’t have a time period associated with it. In this statement God created two different things. The first thing mentioned is the heavens, shamayim, pronounced shaw-mah'-yim in Hebrew. These heavens are also made of many things, the atmosphere above the surface of the earth, the abode of the visible universe containing planets, stars, galaxies, many of which cannot be seen even with the strongest telescope, and the invisible realm of which we call spirits. Even God, a spirit, himself is said to reside there. It is not mentioned how long in time that it took to create the heavens. The Hebrew word for create is bara’, pronounced baw-raw’, meaning to form, to shape, or fashion. Based on the information in the following video, you will see that mathematically, and according to physical laws, it would be impossible for this to be made instantaneously, as some believe. The second thing mentioned is the earth, 'erets in Hebrew, meaning land, earth, the planet. These two things are created “in the beginning†of the creative process. The creation process of the earth is next mentioned. It is “formless and voidâ€. Remember, we are only dealing with the material that was used to create (form) this physical body we call planet earth. There was also water, Hebrew mayim, used in the process. Do you see a connection between these words, heaven and water? In this process, God allows light to clear the darkness, Hebrew 'owr, pronounced ore. This is only concerning the body we call earth, not the universe. The light already existed when he created the bodies of the universe, or heaven. The separating of the light from the darkness, which he called night, choshek, pronounced kho-shek’, meaning obscurity only related to the earth. Something that is hard to distinguish or see the details. This separation of light and dark ended the first day. This is not the end of the beginning of the first creative period. It only relates to the creation of the earth. Now the second day concerning the earth begins. How long this process takes is also unknown. Once again we have to consider the laws of mathematics and physics. We are able to approximate the speed of light but, we still have not determined the properties of light. Light functions as particles and waves. Depending on which form it functions under determines it’s speed, etc. Enjoy. [video=youtube;AC7yFDb1zOA]https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=AC7yFDb1zOA[/video]
Hi Tsaphah: Have you read much on VSL or varying speed of light theory? Here is one link http://www.dailygalaxy.com/my_weblo...n-the-early-universe-todays-most-popular.html I think the Bible contains wording that may indicate that the speed of light and perhaps it's quality has changed throughout the creation "periods" of the earth. frank
- Thank you so much Tsaphah for this great high-quality video ! At last, real food for thoughts to chew on ! Merci, merci, merci !! - @ frank, Source : Does the speed of light change in air or water? Yes. Light is slowed down in transparent media such as air, water and glass. The ratio by which it is slowed is called the refractive index of the medium and is usually greater than one.[SUP]*[/SUP] This was discovered by Jean Foucault in 1850. When people talk about "the speed of light" in a general context, they usually mean the speed of light in a vacuum. They also usually mean the speed as measured in an inertial frame. This vacuum-inertial speed is denoted c. Bottom line: It means that the dates put forth about the age of the Universe are the latest/youngest that can be measured... (even if the difference in the end between both speeds mustn't be significant)...
Hi Frank, Thanks for having found a more convenient link to T's video. I'm sorry but yours is dead...
Hi Utuna: Happens pretty often, I see! try this one... http://cds.cern.ch/record/618057/files/0305457.pdf Frank
Hi Frank, Thanks for the new link. Apparently that doesn’t work for Utuna. Hopefully everyone will be able to watch this. Several months ago, I watched a series of lectures given by Richard Feynman that he gave in New Zealand back in the 1980’s. He gave a great explanation of the different theories, results, etc., about quantum mechanics and the properties of light. Here is the link to the series. This will start with his first lecture. The others will follow this for those interested in this very deep subject. http://www.vega.org.uk/video/programme/45 Unfortunately for all of us, Feynman died February 15, 1988. Thanks for the other link.
Hi Joshuastone, You made a statement: “The Watchtower Society believes the creative days were 7000 years long, and I agree with them.†This was in a discussion with Dominic. You also said something about being the only one on this forum that believes the 7,000 year day, as taught by the WTB&TS. Once that is instilled in the mind, it’s hard to accept any other information that would require us to change our thinking. I always thought the Society was right about this time period. After all, it fit their 1914 date very well. Yes, according to them, we are near the end of the 7th day of rest. To me, that sounded logical. But then? I started really studying and praying (in my own way), for better understanding. Now, I want to share some of the information I have found. It appears we are in that period of time spoken of in the book of Daniel. “As for you, Daniel, keep the words secret, and seal up the book until the time of the end. Many will rove about, and the true knowledge will become abundant.†(Dan 12:4 NWT) I came across other information that intrigued me. This was especially true when studying astronomy, physics, and mathematics. Then I re-read the account of creation. There was an individual who argued that each creative day was 24 hours. I said that was impossible. God does not break his own laws. Man is not the one who created the laws of the universe. He still hasn't discovered some of them. Nor does he understand many of them. I read this scripture. “These are the generations of the heavens and of the earth when they were created in the day that Jehovah God was making earth and heavens.†(Gen 2:4 LITV) It says both the heavens and earth are included and associated being created in one day. as in, “the day that Jehovah God was making earth and heavens.†How are we to reason on that sentence? I don’t know if you have read my post here. Read the initial post. Here is a valuable source that may help in understanding the terms used. http://www.blueletterbible.org/sear...02552,NT0001342,TT0000133,VT0000653,BT0001134
Hi Tsaphah, Thanks for posting this about the creative periods/days... The creative days can't be of 7 000 years or fewer. 1) In the stars' nuclei, the elements that are heavier than iron can't be created because it requires a heat (or energy) that only the supernovae can produce. It takes millions of years for a star to reach that stage.... 2) Source : Petroleum is a fossil fuel derived from ancient fossilized organic materials, such as zooplankton and algae.Vast quantities of these remains settled to sea or lake bottoms, mixing with sediments and being buried under anoxic conditions. As further layers settled to the sea or lake bed, intense heat and pressure build up in the lower regions. This process caused the organic matter to change, first into a waxy material known as kerogen, which is found in various oil shales around the world, and then with more heat into liquid and gaseous hydrocarbons via a process known as catagenesis. Formation of petroleum occurs from hydrocarbon pyrolysis in a variety of mainly endothermic reactions at high temperature and/or pressure. There were certain warm nutrient-rich environments such as the Gulf of Mexico and the ancient Tethys Sea where the large amounts of organic material falling to the ocean floor exceeded the rate at which it could decompose. Three conditions must be present for oil reservoirs to form: a source rock rich in hydrocarbon material buried deep enough for subterranean heat to cook it into oil, a porous and permeable reservoir rock for it to accumulate in, and a cap rock (seal) or other mechanism that prevents it from escaping to the surface. How long did it take for said organic materials to get deep enough so it cooked into oil ? I have tons of similar examples.... stars that are at millions of light-years ago/away, etc.
Here is where I have laid my hat on this subject. There is yet a thousand year rest ahead for mankind that must be included in the 7th day rest. We know we are somewhere around 6000 years in time since Adam and Eve were created, therefore the thinking is that the 7th day rest is 7000 years long. Now there are several thought experiments we can play through at this time. Is there any reason to think that the other creative days are longer? Why? If nothing is said more about a subject in scripture, should we not defer back to what is known? If we imply more then said idea, does it not become personal interpretation? It would appear that the Bible and history says the 7th day is at least 6000 years long, therefore the simplest understanding is that the other creative days were at least as long. Now 7 seems to permeate the entire Bible. Our week, the 7th Sabbath year, etc... Each are a period of 7, not a collection of 7's such as 7/100 day periods, no but 7 periods, such as our days in the week, they are all the same length. As well, if the creative days were millions of years, then we are only 6000 years into millions of years of rest of God? That makes no sense, why would humans live in this universe for millions of years alone before God creates life again? Last but not least, I am well aware of the secular sciences and molecular decay, petrification, and strata layering however, I choose to believe scripture over science. Now, I'm not saying I disregard current understanding of decay, but what I am saying is we are missing something. I believe something more then just water happened at the flood. People lived longer, the animals were different, the planet was different, and it's very possible time was different. People always overlook this one. Jehovah could have just as easily changed how time passes. What if time is slower now, hence why we age quicker and it seems as though animal life took much longer to petrify in the past? What if time slows over the millenia and it's imperceptible to us as of yet? What I am saying is, I choose to believe the Bible over science, look at the sciences you may trust in, they will also tell you, you came from apes, is this where you want to lay your trust? All I'm saying is there is a lot more about decay and the past that we don't know, then what we do. I think if you limit your mind to what this universe is capable of, you will limit the possibilities. You know, I was driving into work today down the highway, and I saw a lightning bolt. There were a dozen other cars on the same road with me at the same time, and no doubt they saw the same thing. I began to think about perception. We all shared that moment, why? The leading idea in quantum physics is that the universe does not exist unless we as humans experience it, and we can share this experienced universe if we are in close quarters, but beyond that the universe outside is merely probabilities. Anything is possible, but it's all about probability, and that nothing occurs unless it's observed, it's the whole dual slit experiment. So therefore, if the bones in the ground do not exist until the wave function collapses and someone digs them up, and they don't exist to you unless you observe them yourself, then I'm here to tell you, there is a lot more about this universe you don't know, then you do...
Hi Joshua: There is an explanation for how the creative days can be 7 periods of the same length and still account for the large numbers that astrophysicists use and archeologists use. Remember though that when we look at the seventh "day" that we are only considering the "light" portion of the day. Each day was broken into night and then "light" or "day". So, if you are correct and the "light" part of the seventh day is 7,000 years long, then each creative day is actually 14,000 years long. Look at from the standpoint of the Jewish day. The day starts at darkness and ends at the end of the light period following the darkness. So, each "creative day" had a period of 7,000 years of darkness followed by 7,000 years of light, what is also called a "day". So we would have; Creative Day 1 was 7,000 relative years of Darkness followed by 7,000 years of relative Light. Creative Day 2 was 7,000 relative years of Darkness followed by 7,000 years of relative Light. Creative Day 3 was 7,000 relative years of Darkness followed by 7,000 years of relative Light. Creative Day 4 was 7,000 relative years of Darkness followed by 7,000 years of relative Light. Creative Day 5 was 7,000 relative years of Darkness followed by 7,000 years of relative Light. Creative Day 6 was 7,000 relative years of Darkness followed by 7,000 years of relative Light. Creative Day 7 was 7,000 relative years of Darkness followed by 7,000 years of relative Light. Now if time were counted in a constant fashion this would account for about 98,000 years as counted with a speed of light equaling it's speed as we see it today. Remember, man, and by that I mean Adamic Man or the Man has only been around to observe the final 7,000 years of light and did not exist during the 7th period of Darkness nor any time before that. Pre-Adamic man also existed in the sixth period. See later how this could amount to what modern science ascribes as millions of years later in the discussion. Modern physicist's have hypothesized the need for the speed of light to have been much faster at the beginning of the Universe which would clearly affect "time" how it is seen and measured. For a complete explanation of time and the 7 creative days have a look at.... "A brief History of Light" and the Monrose Hypothesis at... http://www.truebiblecode.com/understanding234.html Have a good read, take your time and digest the material well before moving on and I think you will be informed as to how you can unify the ideas of creative days equaling 98,000 modern clock years and the 11 billion or so years that Physicists give for the age of the Universe. Frank
Frank, thanks for your comment... I have to depart from your understanding of the reading in Gen 1. Gen 1:5 "God called the light Day, but the darkness he called Night. And there was evening and there was morning, a first day." I believe the scripture says that the first day included the evening and morning, a full day. Remember the Jewish day began in the evening and continued to the following. The scripture includes the day and night, then defines them as evening and morning all in one sentence. It's the same thing as Dan 8:14; "So he said to me: “Until 2,300 evenings and mornings; and the holy place will certainly be restored to its right condition.†The evening and morning should be understood as the night and then day...
The creative days in scripture are only as it pertains to Gods attention to earth, and has nothing to do with the rest of the universe. The universe can still be billions of years old, but the creative days were only God's attention to this one planet.
No, did you read my post #10? The biblical account of the creative days were only for this planet. Once upon a time there was darkness on the surface, then Jehovah allowed there to be light by the clearing of the atmosphere, and with the spin of the earth there was darkness and light, and with the clearing of the sky's also the moon and stars came into view. The universe has been around billions of years...
I think of a few things with such a subject... Number one, I have read that there are other theories as to the origin of the hydrocarbons. Such as carbon may have different states deep in the earth, such as Abiogenic theories. Another thing, I'm not convinced that the massive, and I do mean massive amount of oil we pump out of the ground came from life. We've pumped nearly a trillion barrels of oil out of the earth. Now when something dies, most of the time it turns to dust, and on the rare instance that the organics in said organism can leak into the environment, then it also takes very special circumstances for such a process of creating oil to even occur. We have never seen the process of oil being created, oil coming from life on earth or sea is simply an unproven theory. You may or may not know but the origin of crude has been debated for many years, and continues to be so... However with that said, this subject of oil is no different then petrification. How long did it take bone or wood to turn to stone? Modern sciences tells us millions of years, and as I said in post #10 I prefer to believe in scripture, so either something changed, or we still don't understand what's going on yet. We could just flat out have it wrong how decay works, carbon 14 is known to be faulty, and even it's discoverer retracted his claims of accuracy. We could have wrong how time has worked over millinea, we could be wrong about our universe all together, as it pertains to observation. Remember the dual slit experiment I brought up earlier, there is more we don't know about this universe then we do. It would have been just as easy for Jehovah to slow or speed up light in this universe 4000 years ago, or just as easy to slow or speed up our galaxies pace through the universe changing how time moves for us compared to before the change, as it would have been to flood the earth. If the universe we live in sped up or slowed down, time would change on this planet. All I'm saying is, I want to believe scripture at it's basics over secular sciences that change their minds every decade or so. What was once considered to be cooky to believe in quantum physics is now excepted theories. We simply do not know how this universe works yet. There are a lot of theories, and I enjoy reading about them all the time, but just like archaeology has proven may times cities and people of the Bible actually existed, I promise one day the Bible will prove it is correct as to the creation of life.
Hi Joshua: Actually in the scripture that you site both offerings are given during the day, the morning offering is given at first light and the "evening" offering is given at "dusk" which is last light. So both offerings were given during the light. He called the "light", "day", he did not call the night or the darkness period day. He is not talking about a 24 hour cycle of time. Since Jehovah said that he would call the light day, it is the same thing as saying the light=day. Read the link that I gave you and maybe you will understand it properly because now you surely don't. But you can believe anything that you want to Joshua. If you choose to remain in darkness that is your choice. Frank
Joshua: Light existed from the very origin of the Universe. Jehovah did not immediately turn his attention to his creative works on earth. When he said "Let there be light", he was not creating light for the first time, so it must mean something completely different. Frank
No, you misunderstand the setting, Jehovah was on the surface of the earth. No light reached the surface before Jehovah commanded "let there be light", he wasn't creating light, light had already existed billions of years before. You miss the setting, the first creative day starts on a void world where no light reached the surface.