Now I see what your saying...lol light=a day... He means light equals daylight, not light equals "a" day... Get it? Night/Day
Hi Joshua: I get the feeling that you see Genesis as being linear and in real time where verse two happens right after the action in verse one. This is not how it works. Genesis Chapters 1 & 2 cover the entire period of creation. Two chapters covering at least 98,000 years as we count them now or as many as 11.5 billion years if counted depending on the speed of light during the 7 creative periods called "day" or "light". So verse one happens then x years go by (for planets and suns and solar systems etc to form, which don't form in 24 hours. This could be thousands to billions of years apart (in regards to verse 1 & verse 2). Frank
Hi Joshua: Yes, the "light" which Jehovah defines as "day" is when he does his creative works in regards to the physical universe including the earth and everything that we can see around us. For each creative "day" there is a corresponding period called night which is the same length as the period called day. Just as a hebrew day has 12 hours of "light" and 12 hours of darkness so too did the creative epochs. Please read... http://www.truebiblecode.com/understanding234.html for a much fuller understanding of this very abbreviated concept. You won't regret it I don't think. Frank
Since Jehovah says that light equals day, anywhere in the creation account of Genesis you could substitute the word light everywhere there is the word day. See how this affects the reading of the creation account. And there came to be evening and there came to be morning a first light And there came to be evening and there came to be morning a second light And there came to be evening and there came to be morning a third light And there came to be evening and there came to be morning a fourth light And there came to be evening and there came to be morning a fifth light And there came to be evening and there came to be morning a sixth light Frank
Brother, I'm kind of in awe that this subject is even debated in here, it's one of the simplest understandings. Well, when I came into the truth I studied with CO's, DO's, PO's, and several elders, so I guess I take things for granted sometimes. Again, I deplore you to read the account again, what comes first? "The surface of the earth". The first creative day pertains to the surface of the earth, not the universe.
Hi Joshua: First off, I think you meant to write implore, not deplore, but maybe not? I really don't care if you discussed this with the Pope, you have the wrong perspective. The sooner you understand this the sooner your head will come out of your ass and you will begin to see. Administrator, remove my ability to make further comments on this lame ass board. Frank
Hello All, Joshuastone, you said, “. . .the Bible and history says the 7th day is at least 6000 years long, therefore the simplest understanding is that the other creative days were at least as long.†I'm not saying that the creative days were less than 6,000 years, or 7,000 years. I'm saying that we don't know because of the meaning of yowm is not specific, and can apply to variable lengths of time, as we call it. Where does the Bible say that it is 7,000 years? How does history show that? By reading all the different scriptures that use the term “dayâ€, yowm in Hebrew, it is obvious that the length of time varies. Why should we assume that they have to be equal? Jehovah is the one who created what we know as “timeâ€, and only Jehovah has the right to determine when they begin and end. There is no guessing. How far away all the galaxies are from earth has nothing to do with interpretation. It’s based on simple mathematical formulas of geometry and physics. The speed of light is proven that light travels at a constant, finite speed of 186,000 mi/sec. It may vary slightly by the material it encounters, such as water, reflective material, being bent by gravitational pull, or in a vacuum. The change in speed is minimal. In geographic surveys we used parallax formulas to determine object distances which were inaccessible. To determine those distances we us geometry and trigonometry. We know how far the sun is from the earth based on these formulas. This is a proven distance. If we didn’t know these, there would not be an international space station, or landers on the moon and mars. Or, other crafts that are out there now. But, these are not necessary for determining what the Bible means when it states, “God called the light Day, but the darkness he called Night. And there was evening and there was morning, a first day.†(Gen 1:5 NWT) So, from that scripture, how long was each portion of that “first†day? “. . .for in the day that you eat from it you will surely die.†( Gen 2:7 NASB ) Was that day a specific number of hours? More than 24 hours? I will leave that discussion for another time. “For jealousy makes a husband furious; He will show no compassion when he takes revenge.†(Pr 6:34 NWT) Here’s the same scripture, different translation according to the original Hebrew text. “For jealousy enrages a man, And he will not spare in the day of vengeance.†The word here is yowm. Not “when he takesâ€. But, the word yowm has a wide range of the use of time. When Peter says, “However, do not let this escape your notice, beloved ones, that one day is with Jehovah as a thousand years and a thousand years as one day.†(2 Pet 3:8 NWT) He is saying the same thing that Einstein said. “Time is relative.†The Society uses this same scripture to arrive at the 7,000 year day. They have limited the thought of what is being said, and have put a limit on time. To Jehovah, time is relative to Him. He will do what he wills, at the period of time which He chooses to accomplish his purpose. The WTB&TS governing body has interpreted and put time limits on Jehovah’s plans. They have become false prophets just as the prophets of old said when they claimed to know when and what Jehovah will do. “And Jehovah said to me, The prophets prophesy lies in My name. I did not send them and I have not commanded them, nor did I speak to them. They prophesy to you a false vision, and a worthless divination, and the deceit of their heart.†(Jer 14:14 LITV) “And her prophets have daubed themselves with lime, seeing empty visions, and divining lies to them, saying, So says the Lord Jehovah, when Jehovah has not spoken.†(Eze 22:28 LITV) They have moved to the point of declaring Jehovah’s day has arrived. “For you yourselves know very well that Jehovah’s day is coming exactly as a thief in the night.†(1 Thes 5:2 NWT) What is more important; doing as Jesus said, or trying to figure out when the end will come? “Keep on the watch, therefore, because you do not know on what day your Lord is coming.†Mt 24:42 NWT) Which day will that be? Or should we ask, When will that time occur?
This fossilized fish was found in a coalfield. Cockroach wing found in a coalfield in the South of France Other examples below... http://tempsjadis.kazeo.com/m/article-3298125.html As for the abiogenic oil theories, I've already read what I needed to know about it. Anyway, I don't need to debunk that theory since I have other examples in mind. So ? Abiogenic coal too indeed ? 49 000 years only for plant remains to get even only half a mile deep under our feet ? I know that you want to stick to a literal interpretation of the Bible no matter what. It's commendable but is a dead-end in my opinion...
their is a great deal of speculation about what the bible means when genisis says their was a morning and an evening on the days or how long the days were. but I'm going to refresh an idea in your head about what Einstein's idea. which says if your in a rocket and moving at light speed and travel 1 day according to your time aboard the rocket. and then return to earth many many years will have passed while you were gone only 24 hours according to your time aboard the rocket. let us suppose god was traveling with the earth and solar system at great speed through the galaxy about light speed based upon the speculated 7000 year creative day idea. he creates life on earth and all other things in 6 literal days then places earth and our soar system were he wanted it to be. now earth has a completely different measure of time now that its no longer traveling with god at very fast speeds. litteraly billions of what we call earth years could have gone by while the earth was being formed while in Jehovah's building shop! yet in Jehovah's time this took place in one heaven week! now since science places earth at 4.5 billion years of age and the speed of light is 186000 miles per second. let one of you with mathematics knowledge calculate how many earth years a creative day was! I'm not a math expert but using my computer and the light speed time theory of Einstein. I get 6428 years per creative day if and I mean if earth was suspended in travel within Jehovah's heaven traveling at exact light speed.. do the math your self and see what you get.
Brother, we as humans make scripture more complicated then it need be. Even though Jehovah confused our languages 4000 years ago, we still all have the same understanding as it pertains to word comprehension. Scripture comes down to either a literal reading or metaphor, and this is the determining factor in truth. We have a saying in the US, "back in the day". You understand this statement. It's not that difficult to comprehend what I mean when I say, "back in the day we had a lot of fun". Did I mean a certain day? Of course not, this is just simple language without any need for confusion. Don't you think it's strange that the earth existed before light? Well if you read the account in Gen 1 then you would have to conclude that the earth existed before light was created... Or maybe Gen 1:3 isn't talking about the creation of light, maybe it's talking about light reaching the surface of earth, after all that is the setting in verse 2. You see, the earth already existed before the statement "let there be light", therefore the answer should be quite simple, the sun also existed before the command "let there be light". One thing is for sure, that "day" included the light and darkness. Others claim only the light equaled the "day". It's simple word comprehension, there are many ways to use the word "day". "What time of day is it?", "What day will you be there?", "It's daylight out.", "The moon is finally out, what a day.", "It's so dark outside, I had quite the day.". You see, you understood each instance of "day" I mentioned without difficulty, no need to read more into what I said. So that begs the question, what did Jehovah mean by "a day"? I happen to believe Jehovah is consistent and that whatever length the 7th day is, so will be the others. There is no precedence to say otherwise. Yes but, we know the 7th day had a specific starting point, in that of the moment after Eve was created. So, we cannot infer that the 7th day was a metaphor for a period of time without a beginning or end. Now, how do we know this 7th day must have an end? Because the 6 day periods were the creative days, therefore the moment Jehovah begins creating again will mark the end of his 7th day rest. Therefore it can be deduced that since we know the 7th day had a specific starting point for the day of his rest from creating, then we know that 7th day will have an exact count of years, because at some point Jehovah will begin creating again. They put limits on Jehovah's time tables because there are limits. In every incident in scripture and prophecy there were always a set number of days for Jehovah's workings. All throughout Daniel and Revelation we have exact number of days between events, from the time Gods people will be in captivity to Babylon to the number of days before the holy place will be brought into it's right condition. There is a set day for Jehovah's wrath, a set number of days before. There are a set number of days before he begins creating again, whether those days be our earth days, or heavenly days, what have you, Jehovah has set limits on everything from the 120 days before the flood, to the 40 years of Israel in the desert, to the number of years of captivity in Babylon. This is the nature of our reality, and always has been as it pertains to spiritual intervention.
This isn't difficult guys, look: "In the beginning God created the heavens and the earth. (Heavens and the earth are created in the very first sentence, that means all the stars and all the planets taking billions of years. This sentence is not part of the first creative day.) Now the earth was formless and desolate, and there was darkness upon the surface of the watery deep, and God’s active force was moving about over the surface of the waters. (The earth existed at this moment, which means there was already a sun, moon, and all the planets that make up the structure of this solar system.) And God said: “Let there be light.†Then there was light." (Now this isn't the moment light was created, because the earth already existed before this sentence, therefore it simply means he had allowed light to reach the surface. Very, very, very simple...)
Hi Frank, I don’t know who wrote “A Brief History of Light†but, “. . . both Isaac Newton and Albert Einstein believed that there was a God.â€, that is not correct. At least, not according to the God we know. Even though his family was of Jewish decent, they were not active believers. Here is what Einstein said, in his own words. “My position concerning God is that of an agnostic.†(Einstein In His Own Words, by Anne Rooney, Pg 104, Religion: God and Religion, © 2006 Gramercy Books New York) “I cannot conceive of a personal God who would directly influence the actions of individuals.†(Einstein In His Own Words, Pg 105) “I am a deeply religious non-believer . . . This is a somewhat new kind of religion.†(Einstein In His Own Words, Pg 105) “Despite denying the existence of a ‘personal’ God, Einstein spoke frequently of God. So frequently, in fact, that Friedrich Dürrenmatt commented: ‘I was led to suspect he was a closet theologian’. But what Einstein meant by God was not the Judaeo-Christian God who spoke to humankind through prophets and laws. Instead he saw the hand of a great and unknowable intelligence at work in the laws of physics.†(Einstein In His Own Words, Pg 106) “I’m not an atheist and I don’t think I can call myself a pantheist. We are in the position of a little child entering a huge library filled with books in many different languages. The child knows someone must have written those books. It does not know how. It does not understand the languages in which they are written. The child dimly suspects a mysterious order in the arrangement of the books but doesn’t know what it is. That, it seems to me, is the attitude of even the most intelligent human being toward God. We see a universe marvelously arranged and obeying certain laws, but only dimly understand these laws. Our limited minds cannot grasp the mysterious force that moves the constellations.†(Einstein In His Own Words, Pg 107) The statement from “A Brief History of Lightâ€, “1. We find that on the first creative day of the seven, which was more of an epoch than a 'day'.†I do agree with this statement. Why? It reads; “God called the light day, and the darkness He called night. And there was evening and there was morning, one day.†( Gen 1:5 NASB ) Notice, light ('owr) day (yowm) darkness (choshek) night (layil). It continues; evening (‘ereb) morning (boqer) one day (yowm). This is not speaking of a 12 hour day and 12 hour night. It is a period of time. Josuastone, just like “back in the day.†Does that mean a specific day? Or, does it mean several consecutive days? A few years? A generation? I've lived through many of those days! I was going to go further but it appears that some have their mind made up no matter what evidence is presented. Joshuastone, is convinced that everything the WTB&TS says is truth. He may be an easy target for those whom Jesus warned us about. It’s not necessary to have “an open mind†but at least be receptive to information. The WTB&TS does not agree with this way of thinking. They love people who can’t think for themselves. That way, they will be more willing to follow their way of teaching. Frank, don’t go away mad. I almost got to that point at one time. But, I realized that I could help others reason on the scriptures. I don’t always agree with some of your posts. I still treat you with respect and have learned from what you post. There are some here who still fall under the category that Paul discussed. “For although by now you should be teachers, you again need someone to teach you from the beginning the elementary things of the sacred pronouncements of God, and you have gone back to needing milk, not solid food. For everyone who continues to feed on milk is unacquainted with the word of righteousness, for he is a young child. But solid food belongs to mature people, to those who through use have their powers of discernment trained to distinguish both right and wrong.†(Heb 5:12-14 NWT)
Tsaphah, I'm so glad your here to teach us who need milk instead of solid food. For people like me who are easy targets of those Christ warned you about can bennifit greatly from your seperior knowledge. After all without your knowledge we could know nothing, because as you say we are unable to think for ourselves. How truly greatful I am for your seperior knowledge, it's just to bad I reject your perfect evidence presented in argument, for if I would I would see the truth... Just to bad...
I agree with you excepted that I make the first day start when Jehovah started to create the heavens and the earth. Strictly speaking, one can't say that the first day of creation began after Jehovah started creating.... "This is the account of the heavens and the earth when they were created, in the day that the Lord God made earth and heaven." - Gen 2:4 - NASU Was it day -1 ?
When I read your discussion, I'm under the impression that you both aren't talking about the same thing, that you're not on the same wavelength. The point isn't whether the creative days are metaphors or if they have ends or not. It's obvious that each day corresponds to a different stage of the Creation process and that each day has a beginning and an end. The point is whether each day was 7 000 years long or not and if God's creation of the surface of the earth started only 48 000 years ago. I'm sorry but I don't understand this sentence in bold. I've looked up in dictionaries for alternative meanings to the word precedence and I wonder why you used it here. I guess that you meant evidence, didn't you ? Yes, there is evidence but you're deaf to them. How can you explain that sea fossils are found within many thousands of feet thick layers of sediments, and this way above the sea level and/or away from the sea ? How do you explain that fossils of animals and plants are found in coalfields many thousands of feet under ours....? The fossilized plants and animals can't be only 30 000 years old or so. Even in the case that the theories about the abiogenic petroleum were proven, it doesn't rule out the existence of biogenic petroleum and therefore, the question of when that huge biomass appeared and died and the way that it got so deep and got transformed into petroleum remains to be answered. I didn't insist the other day when I first talked about it because I saw that you hadn't really answered my question but the real point is what about biogenic petroleum, regardless of whether abiogenic petroleum exists or not...? You believe in the 7x7000 chronology because you may think that it has some beauty and therefore you stick it on the chronology of the Creation. You want it all chronologized because you like it this way. That's a mere question of interpretation and personal opinion and nothing in the Bible indicates that each creative day was 7 000 years long only.