How Old Is Life On Earth?

Discussion in 'General Discussions' started by Joshuastone7, Jun 9, 2015.

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    Utuna

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    This one is dedicated to Robert... lol :p

    2 Peter 3:1-7

    (...)

    The doctrine Peter is defending is the return of Christ to the earth to set up His kingdom, and then, after 1,000 years, to usher in the new heavens and earth. Peter is not referring to the rapture of the church, that is, the secret return of Christ in the air (1 Thess 4:13-18). Of course, the world scoffs at the idea of the return of Christ (Jude 18) and cannot see that all of history, is moving in that direction. "All things continue as they were" is the argument we hear from the world's thinkers. "God is not going to break into history and interrupt the progress of time!"

    But Peter cites OT examples to prove that God does break into history. He begins with the created world in Gen 1 (v. 5), made by the Word of God. He then introduces the Flood (Gen 6) and the world that was judged by God (v. 6). Verse 7 indicates that the world now "is stored with fire" and already prepared for judgment. This may suggest the release of atomic power. If we relate v. 6 to the Flood, we have the same argument: God does judge sin at a time when men are confident that nothing is going to happen.

    (from Wiersbe's Expository Outlines on the New Testament. Copyright ©
    1992 by Chariot Victor Publishing, an imprint of Cook Communication Ministries. All rights reserved.)

     
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    Utuna

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    Ah ? I hadn't seen that one !

    Please, could you tell me why and how it says nothing as to how, when or how long it took to get there ?

    No Disneyland fairy tales please....

    Edit : No, that's ok ! Drop it ! I'll do it myself in the following days.
     
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    Joshuastone7

    Joshuastone7 Administrator Staff Member

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    With all do respect brother, I have no idea where your coming from. All your doing is posting sources, and when I start picking them apart you say you don't agree with everything in them just some things.

    I have no idea what your saying. You could just say it in plain words. I'm still, again, waiting to hear if you believe the flood was a local event.
     
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    Utuna

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    I would have prefered that you get this right....

    1)
    It strongly depends on the chemical and mineral environment. It's very quick when the conditions are very much favorable and much, very, very, very, very, very, very much, much, much, much, much, much slower when the conditions are otherwise...

    I guess that you know what chalk is ?

    Source

    Chalk is a biochemical sedimentary rock formed by the accumulation of microscopic marine calcite fossils. The fine-grained nature and white color of the calcite are used in the recognition of chalk.
    Sediment type: biochemical
    Composition: calcite
    Grain Size: very fine grained
    Common Sedimentary Environments: marine
    Other Characteristics: low hardness and reactivity to acid of calcite combined with the white rock color. Individual shells are visible with a microscope.


    Chalk layers under a crater in the North Sea

    Source

    "Unusual diagenesis in the chalk beneath the Silverpit structure was identified as a result of the presence of both unusual geophysical and geochemical signatures."

    (...)

    "Meteorite impact has lead to the formation of the central zone of deformation and conical uplift. It has also influenced the diagenesis of the chalk beneath the crater and created a more brittle chalk unit. Regional salt withdrawal is responsible for the formation of the ring faults, which have only formed in the meteorite impact induced brittle chalk. In simple terms, a meteorite impact formed the 3km crater and then salt withdrawal produced the circular rings during several million years after the impact."

    How come an astrobleme got above chalk layers that were supposedly formed during the Flood only ?

    2)
    There is only one case that works that way, the phosphatic fossilization and this word being self-explanatory, it means that it requires phosphate, and this in sufficient quantities, along with an environment deprived of oxygen so there is no decay, which is rare, very rare. These fossils are extremely exceptional, which means that the phosphatic fossilization is an exception within another exception. That is, not something that can be generalized as you do in relation to the Flood.

    3)
    Wood floats and yet, we find plant fossils under miles of sediments. The iridium layer is buried too high within the sedimentary layers given its density, if we follow the Creationists' explanations. Very thick layers of chalk are buried deep under heavier materials and rocks. As I already said, most of the extinct past life is marine.... Too bad Noah didn't have fish tanks.... unless those animals died way earlier and way before the Flood.

    4)
    That can't be ! The biggest animals, some dinosaurs, aren't at the bottom of the sedimentary layers. On the contrary, the tiniest ones are on the bottom. There are thick layers with lacustrine fossils and plants only (as shown by the pictures of the strata I posted) and other layers just below or above that are made up of marine life only (or eolian, desert and dunes). The fossils aren't separated depending on their density at all !

    Why are you talking about evolution ? Who is talking about evolution here ?

    I don't believe in evolution. The authors of the PDF I invited you to read don't either.

    You seem to have a very powerful polar thinking when it comes to things you disagree with.

    There are :

    Evolutionists who are atheists.
    Those who believe in God and who think that God created life through evolution (Old Earth Creationists, PDF, p.100, § 1).
    Those who believe in God, OEC (Old Earth Creationists, PDF, p.100, § 1, case #2) too and who think that God created the animals gradually, according to their kinds and this over millions of years. (I'm one of them)
    Those who believe in God and who think that God created life in a few tens of thousands of years (you're one of them).
    Those who believe in God and who think that God created everything in 6,000 years only.
    Those who believe in God and who think that God created everything in a few days time only.

    You tend to back those who believe in God and support Creation ?

    I say that Creationists are con men and liars. Yet, I believe in Creation and I support it, don't I ?

    You may think that only Creationists support the Bible and yet, strictly speaking, you aren't one of them since you're an OEC too. I guess that you must think that you have death upon yourself and must lie in the power of the wicked one as a result, don't you ?

    Shame on me...???? lol

    I was surprised by Tsaphah's post because I thought that he would have understood what's written in the PDF file, unless he didn't read it since you shouted from the rooftops that the authors were evolutionist and promoting a local Flood.

    Where did you see that they were promoting a local Flood ? Didn't you read it in cursory ways because I'm bothering you since a couple of weeks ago about pertinent scientific questions ?

    They never said that the Flood was local. They are scientists. They aren't kids. They weigh and mean each word they write. Their line of reasoning is that the Creationists stick to the very meaning of each word written in the Bible and yet... what's written can have different meanings, hence the authors' arguments about Gen. 7:20 and Gen. 41:57 according to which (helped by quotations from Bible scholars of the OT) those expressions are to be taken with a pinch of salt.

    The argument about Gen. 41:57 is highly tenable, although it can't be applied to the Flood.

    The PDF file isn't destined to show how things happened but to prove that the Creationists' line of reasoning is fallacious and unreliable on scientific grounds.
     
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    Utuna

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    Don't bother waiting, I already have said my piece about it all... ;) Just trust your heart... <3
     
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    Joshuastone7

    Joshuastone7 Administrator Staff Member

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    So since you believe the 7th day is a different length then the first six, that means the other six can all be different lengths from each other, correct?
     
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    SingleCell

    SingleCell Experienced Member

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    Clearly the earth is only 48 hours old, hopefully someday you guys realize this.

    Your memories were implanted.
     
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    Joshuastone7

    Joshuastone7 Administrator Staff Member

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    lol... ;)
     
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    Utuna

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    I have a handful of craters more around there to unsheathe for you in case of need.... 174 of them have been officially listed so far...

    Be my guest ! :p
     
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    Joshuastone7

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    Plants were made on the third day, insects on the sixth. How did certain specialized plants continue to exist through millions of years without their insect partners? The Encyclopedia Britannica states that two groups of insects which include bees, wasps, butterflies and moths could not have existed without the honey or nectar bearing plants, NOR COULD THESE PLANTS HAVE EXISTED WITHOUT THE INSECTS. Without insects to pollinate them they could not bear seed.
     
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    Tsaphah

    Tsaphah Experienced Member

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    What’s the answer to this? “Then God said: “Let the earth cause grass to sprout, seed-bearing plants and fruit trees according to their kinds, yielding fruit along with seed on the earth.â€￾ And it was so. And the earth began to produce grass, seed-bearing plants and trees yielding fruit along with seed, according to their kinds. Then God saw that it was good. And there was evening and there was morning, a third day.â€￾ (Gen 1:11-13 NWT) So all the plants, trees, etc., were created. But wait! What next?

    “Then God said: ‘Let there be luminaries in the expanse of the heavens to make a division between the day and the night, and they will serve as signs for seasons and for days and years. They will serve as luminaries in the expanse of the heavens to shine upon the earth.’ And it was so. And God went on to make the two great luminaries, the greater luminary for dominating the day and the lesser luminary for dominating the night, and also the stars. Thus God put them in the expanse of the heavens to shine upon the earth and to dominate by day and by night and to make a division between the light and the darkness. Then God saw that it was good. And there was evening and there was morning, a fourth day.â€￾ (Gen 1:14-19 NWT)

    Wait a minute, wait a minute!! How could the plants live without sunlight? There was also no day and night! Right? Here’s the answer to it all. Very simple answer. WE DON’T KNOW!! It’s called a mystery! There is no Hebrew words for this mystery. There is an Aramaic word, raz (rawz) which is translated as “secretâ€￾ or “mysteryâ€￾. It only appears 8 times in the book of Daniel. They all deal with the dreams or visions. “However, there is a God in heaven who reveals mysteries, . . .â€￾ (Dan 2:28 NASB ) The others are 2:18-19, 27-30, 47; 4:9. The KJV translates this as secret(s).

    The Greek translates this as musterion (moos-tay’-ree-on): from a derivative of muo (to shut the mouth); a secret or “mysteryâ€￾ (through the idea of silence imposed by initiation into religious rites):--mystery. Another derivative of musterion is muopazo (moo-ope-ad’-zo): from a compound of the base of musthrion - musterion and ops (the face;); to shut the eyes, i.e. blink (see indistinctly):-- cannot see far off. [ops is where we get our word optical.]

    Unfortunately there are many who will try to “fill in the blanksâ€￾ and, appear to be “expertsâ€￾ or, “led by the spiritâ€￾ for understanding. I have to immediately question “which spiritâ€￾? The one who told the woman she would “be like Godâ€￾? I will wait on Jehovah to reveal that to us when He is ready to do that. Why is it so hard for humans to say, “I don’t knowâ€￾?
     
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    Joshuastone7

    Joshuastone7 Administrator Staff Member

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    I completely agree! Jehovah said it very clear to Job, Job 38:4 "Where were you when I founded the earth? Tell me, if you think you understand."

    I don't understand someone who claims that the worldly sciences are fact. A single interaction on this universe by Jehovah changes all physics having to do with that action! Which means matter will act in a way that seems impossible. Simple!

    Case in point, Mth 17:20 "He said to them: “Because of your little faith. For truly I say to you, if you have faith the size of a mustard grain, you will say to this mountain, ‘Move from here to there,’ and it will move, and nothing will be impossible for you.â€

    Now, if I as a human male was to move a mountain by faith, would someone walk right up to me and say, "That happened over millions of years, because it's impossible, the strata proves it."?

    As well, plants living for millions of years without light and no bugs to pollinate them, right.

    Jehovah has the ability to create life over millions of years, over thousands of years, and in single days. You weren't there, I wasn't there, and no one on the db was there, so any dogmatic attitude just makes that person stand out as arrogant...

    Tsaphah, thank you for keeping the focus to the Bible.
     
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    Utuna

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    ...and said specialized plants could continue to exist through many thousands of years, as you believe, without their insect partners... ? What's the age limit ? 75 000 or 100 000 years ? after which they die...?

    bah bah bah
     
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    Joshuastone7

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    The ones needing bugs could have been created at the same time as the bugs, there's nothing to say plants weren't continuing to be created up until God put man in the garden. The third day was the beginning of the creation of plants.

    Creation is the only way to explain which came first, the chicken or the egg.

    But one things for sure, you can't have the bugs and plants living together for millions of years, it doesn't fit the creation story.
     
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    Utuna

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    That can't be !

    1) Paleomagnetic data show conclusively that the location of the magnetic poles has changed lots of times in the past, and said data match with all the other measures made all over the world. They enable the scientists to measure and corroborate the different measures of time that it took for the oceanic and continental crusts to move apart and we count it in millions of years. They enable them too to know where the rocks were when they were formed. The oceanic crust can't have been formed in one year only. The magnetic North and South poles have changed 300 times in the last 150 millions years and those changes can be spotted and measured deep inside of the oceanic crust.....

    2) Very deep core drillings have been performed all around the world (in dry land, lakes and oceans) and they all have found sedimentary strata which are many thousands of feet thick and these weren't mere rubble and debris. I have posted many links to prove that thing. Those sediments contain billions of details about the climate, the plants and the animals (through fossils) back then.

    3) 2 Pe 3:5 is often quoted as a "proof" that the Pangea existed before the flood and that the Deluge turned the crust upside down and separated the continents. I have posted many quotations above which prove that such an understanding isn't necessarily what Peter meant when he wrote those words. If Peter's words are generally misunderstood, it therefore means that the only scriptural objection to the plate tectonics isn't tenable anymore.

    Three hundred years ago, I would have been burned alive for having said that the Earth turns around the Sun whereas the Bible says that God stopped the Sun (Jos. 10:13), which is impossible as we all know. Jehovah stopped the Earth, in fact. There are as many interpretations of the Creation account as people to read it. Will you burn me alive for yours ?
     
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    Poetry of Providence

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    this island was formed in a matter of years ..with only three eruptions ..
    land masses can be formed "very quickly" should we have enough
    volcanic activity to raise them ...lifting of the land masses "can be"
    far more shortly derived than evolutionists like to theorize ...

    https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Surtsey

    lava flows still continue to build in the Hawaiian Islands ...
    and are reseeded quickly upon cooling ...we have no true
    idea how long the creation process was ..I happen to like
    the 49,000 year concept as it sorta follows the jubilee
    of true freedom from slavery to sin ...but I would be a
    fool to state it's a sure thing ...just because my preference
    for all the building of creation and the bringing in the
    blueprint to fruition in the timeline ...but hey now I can say
    I participated in this thread ...snicker snicker ...
     
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    Joshuastone7

    Joshuastone7 Administrator Staff Member

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    Thank you for your comment POP, it was very timely...
     
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    SingleCell

    SingleCell Experienced Member

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    In short, yes.

    A) I love tuna

    B) Because you don't accept that you are 48 hours old, the only possible response is the punishment of death

    [​IMG]
     
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    Joshuastone7

    Joshuastone7 Administrator Staff Member

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    They did say it was a local event, even claiming some humans in different parts of the world survived the event, I've already posted about it.

    "Walton quips that no one believes that the Eskimos were included. Similarly, the senior author
    of this article has considered that the ancients used expressions like
    “all,â€￾ “every,â€￾ and “under heavenâ€￾to describe regional, but non-universal, events. Hill also considered the word “earthâ€￾ (eretz) to
    mean ground or dry land, rather than the planet
    Earth, arguing that the misinterpretation of this
    word in particular has led to the erroneous conclusion that “all the earthâ€￾ means a worldwide, universal
    flood."

    It should be clear already that interpretation comes down to which scripture is literal and which is a metaphor. Every single discussion comes down to this very fact. Gen 41:57 was never meant to denote the entire planet as we know, however when the waters covered the "mountains" that is every mountain on the planet, there is no way to localize the mountains. It only takes common sense to determine which scriptures are metaphors and which ones are literal. When one says, "This scripture uses the word as a metaphor so every instance of the word in the Bible must be a metaphor" you start thinking like Domenic.
     
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    Utuna

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