If (Babylon the Great == X) Then ....

Discussion in 'Bible Prophecy' started by SingleCell, Dec 11, 2013.

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    SingleCell

    SingleCell Experienced Member

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    (My opinion) Facts which shouldn't be debated:

    1. BTG is a religious/spiritual institution
    2. BTG made kings and merchants wealthy
    3. BTG has the blood of prophets and Christ's followers on her hands
    4. BTG is known by multiple names

    So let's do some if / then statements about the other clues, all of this being conjecture, and me with a propensity for poor reasoning.

    ------

    Statement: If Jehovah's people are in her, then Babylon the Great IS NOT "worldwide false religion" but either Judaism or Christianity.

    Note: At least by one possible interpretation, "my people" are current followers of Christ from the perspective of the then future time period, or possibly Jews.

    The invalidation of this conclusion is that "my people" could be a 'spiritual comment' about their future-faithful selves Jehovah is trying to save by getting them out of 'false religion'.

    Conclusion, I could go either way on this.

    ------

    If she is the MOTHER of harlots, then she gave birth to children, and therefore CANNOT be ALL false religion but the progenitor of false religion.

    Conclusion, I see no other way of reading this. She is the mother of harlots and therefore not the 'container' holding all of false religion.

    ------

    If those who do not escape BTG "share in the punishment of her sins", they aren't necessarily "doomed" to second death, but rather "share in punishment", perhaps in a similar way to the faithful/un-faithful slaves. (not equating, just pointing to the similar conception)

    Conclusion, I'm not sure.

    ------

    I was pondering this after hearing a theory about BTG from `some other guy` on the internet (lol), who was arguing that the Jews using the BABYLONIAN Talmud, hatched a 'plot' if you will, to subvert Christianity.

    (anti-Christ is denying that Christ is the Messiah, 1 John goes into this)


    So they set out to pervert what became the Roman Catholic church, and transmute it into a betrayal of the truth in Christ.

    Facts:

    1. The B. Talmud came out of Babylon.
    2. The Jews rejected the messiah, and switched to the Talmud (not sure about the "Khazar" stuff ...)
    3. The Catholic Church is like a reversed image of Judaism, Christianized


    My current conclusion:

    BTG is actually an amalgam of this false Judaism who transmuted the Roman church into false Christianity, which became rich from the merchants of the earth, has the blood of both the prophets AND witnesses of Christ, spawned the harlots, and holds Jehovah's people inside her on both sides. (Jews and Christians)

    Any thoughts / debunking?

    (forgive my poor erudition, I'm a meat and potatoes type, haha)

    Further conclusion: when I say 'fact' I really mean "my possibly, and likely wrong opinion" :)
     
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    wallflower

    wallflower Moderator

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    I was thinking about Revelation 18:4,5 ("Get out of her, my people".) I think that refers to where Jehovah's people will have to make a choice, as to whether they will serve men or whether they will serve Jehovah. Would those who choose to serve men and who choose to remain, be said to be part of "worldwide false religion?"

    I don't know - I'm just guessing here and could be wrong.

    Wallflower (of the "meat and potatoes" class also.)
     
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    Poetry of Providence

    Poetry of Providence Active Member

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    just a teeny tiny thought here .
    The original Babylon was both "king and priest"
    head religion and government of that nation (nations
    considering Mede's Persians religion/government
    conglomerate) as such the Catholic church
    did for a LONG time meet the same criteria as
    such the "unholy roman empire" religion and
    government conglomerate ...We do fully see
    the nations today in the action of attempting
    to de-saddle religion from it's influences upon
    those who wield the power (money wealth
    banks etc) Religion has been/is the most powerful
    force in that all nations have it's tradition
    and beliefs as a "talmud" of law for those
    participants and citizens of each segmented
    nation and ideological system .in essence the
    teachings of the fallen adversarial angels permeate
    both , I do fixedly feel that history has correctly
    defined it's wholesale reach upon all mankind .
    What nation does not have all the earmarks
    of this kind of influence over it's subjects ..
    Or fully one or the other ...Simplistically a
    look over the histories and religions studied
    over the centuries give us a clear view as to
    it's power and influence over it's subjects in
    every way we can view(birthing children
    as to ideological influence and tradition )
    ...Both religions and governments
    have had offspring of their ideology imprinted
    upon it's subjects and have also increased exponentially
    now having not just one national influence ...but
    also now in this particular time are setting up the original
    "one government powers" influence as was those past .
    (the march of kings in Daniel's vision) "new world order"
    which is really a return to the conquest of all by one
    order of thought , minus that woman who seats in the
    saddle ...the wealth of all those who have marched
    down the ages in both these sectors have not only
    retained power but the majority of wealth and prosperity
    that could be had among them .And by far it's the religions
    that have "freely" prospered from it's influences ...We all
    rarely give our money willingly to those who give it to the
    armies of violence . but willingly give it to those whom we
    believe will use it to further beneficence (a lie since they
    don't) the transparency of both can be seen openly but
    the one most hatred will be the one most hypocritical
    about it's motive's ...and that hatred can currently be
    seen as openly fostered by those undergoing the imprint
    of what is believed to be "science" or another viewpoint
    "as accuracy of viewpoint" as are those proponents of
    this particular philosophy . I am sorry this line of reasoning
    is not presented with scripture but with the linage of
    thought that traces it's cohesion from the study of
    history and religion and what is called science upon us all.
    At this point in time there are more philosophical and
    ideological pursuits to compete with the polytheism of
    the Hindi's and also among those leading down the paths
    of "science" , what is not questioned by the populace
    today is their "nationalism" and as such will allow them
    to undertake that as their own competition upon the
    planet for it's resources ...and god will be of little use
    to those reaching to maintain a certain standard of living.
    The complexities of the integration of nations and
    those who hold the "funds" (most of Jewish descent and
    who also fund the nations and their wars) who financed
    Hitler , the US , England , and nearly every other incipient
    conflict upon the planet , proves the truth of Jesus
    statement to the Sanheidrin "John 8:44" and by stating
    thus it behooves us all to know the extent of both their
    influences and to retain a separation from both ...In this
    case the WT may have witnessed to the truth of this
    matter but in essence have failed it greatly in it's attempt
    to both usurp both as the mouthpiece of the Christ and
    what will be the new fledged government of God which
    will bring us back to the Priests/Kings service to elevate
    humanity to it's original design and purpose ...now it
    zzz time ...feel free to impinge or elaborate in more depth
    by scripture , I have studied history , science and ideology
    in some depth , but since I never joined the "ministry
    school" so I do not have the ability for it's use in reasoning
    with the biblically trained . Most of my contacts would fall
    in the historically trained due to familial contacts . (ie the
    educated and not as such in biblical) any discussions with
    my father would have required intent knowledge of history
    since that was his "masters" ...anyone who can further
    these lines of reasoning with the masters word would be
    appreciated ...
     
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    SingleCell

    SingleCell Experienced Member

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    Good thoughts WF, thank you!

    (and in some sense, perhaps the 'heart of the matter', I think you're right on target)

    But on the surface it would appear that BTG isn't just a metaphor for our allegiance to God or man, but an institution who influences markets / kings / nations, and `contains` Christians (or possibly Jews) within her walls.

    Using that same line of reasoning, she also spawned harlot-children.

    She also has been 'alive' in some form since Egypt. (there is more to be said here)
     
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    SingleCell

    SingleCell Experienced Member

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    Wow PoP, great writeup!

    I'm a lay-historian (or, want to be!) myself so I'm right there with you sister! I see the same 'trending'.

    So for the sake of bringing what you understand into line with the prophetic clues:

    The priest/kings of false anti-Jehovah religion (all false religion) have dominated mankind since the Sumerians (not coincidentally the 'Tower of Babel' and Nimrod).

    The same explanatory mechanics of the 'eternal soul' an idea of 'eternal torment' and things like these are found in most religion. (and follow the 'original lie' conception of 'not dying' but 'transcending')

    We know that BTG sits on the '7 mountains' [which we understand to be Egypt -> Persia -> Babylon -> Medo-persia -> Greece -> Rome -> Western European nation-states]


    Predicate: a prophetic symbol can be both macro-explanatory and micro-explanatory (major and minor) (E.G. if we apply KotNorth to the Seleucids AND a future king)

    Conclusion:

    - the macro-explanation for BTG on the 7 mountains are the false conceptions of BTG and her children dominating these empires and their populations

    - the micro-explanation for BTG (perhaps) takes on a visible institutional role leading up to the time of the end, typified by the Babylonian Talmud influenced Catholic Church



    My 'stumbling block' to concluding that BTG is an esoteric macro-only explanation is that she contains Jehovah's people in her, and spawned children.

    These two things invalidate the conclusion that BTG is a nebulous macro-only explanation.

    ---- counter stumbling block ------

    If you don't accept the 'macro vs micro' idea, then what other than 'all false religion' can be said to have dominated these 7 mountain-empires?
     
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    Poetry of Providence

    Poetry of Providence Active Member

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    ahh , singlecell , I'm not done with the postulated idea that
    Rome who sits on the seven hills and was/is and will be the
    in the final drama . look up articles and research into the
    Vatican and it's desire to control the present material
    Jerusalem ...It's ecumenical efforts to monopolize all religions
    under one roof and all the last few decades news articles
    concerning her fornication's with the nations and the distinctly
    shown pictures of the popes shaking hands with all the
    delegates/rulers/kings/shieks of the nations . at which point
    we ask Vatican's true intentions for Jerusalem and it's Temple
    Mount. I myself am not clear where in time we stand the
    proclamations since 1799 of the end of days to Newton's
    math figuring it at about 2060 and frankly I would trust his
    math over others as he worked that "formula" for himself
    and not in an effort to bring others under control with fear .
    Frankly I fall into the same category as those here on the
    board still seeking a full view of the prophecies in which I
    do believe all those here are deeply concerned with , which
    also the angels are desiring to look into (gads I was hit with
    a they don't know it all either) of the things only the Father
    has in his control ..(and what ! even our Lord King is being
    withheld some info , so I suspect we will not have the final
    answer until he has it also and passes it on) Daniel 11 is
    fairly clearly tracked in it's march and relationship with 1st
    covenant Israel indeed is nearly transparent in this age as
    to it's fulfillment regarding the "nation of Israel" . Since my
    early introduction to biblical prophecy (prior to my forage
    into the WTBTS) we had read many sources/discussions
    and perusals down this particular consideration as to it's
    possible application to the "Church" in her walk within the
    "world of men" which is where I have more difficultly , not
    withstanding I have eaten more books written since the
    time of Charles Taze Russell as my own library is nearly as
    large as most halls , I collected those books from every
    place I could get them and have read most all of them ..and
    ridding myself of of the usage of "jonadab class and other
    maybe not so rightful thinking and realizing I am again
    going to toss out the dirty water and start fresh from the
    viewpoints of Christ only and build again since I have had
    such ineffective teachers or perhaps liars on board in my
    own influenced thinking . Getting an absolutely clear picture
    based on what is taught by others may not be possible in
    my own case as we all further our forages into the things
    that concern us under the present covenant . So I am
    nearly feeling like Paul that I must be taught again what
    is the basic's and build from there , only as now I have a
    far better framework in which to place anything newly
    clarified ....anyhow the considerations have been put in
    place and the forum continues it's support and sharing
    in the discussions of what has been polluted since the
    apostles and the inception of the unholy see and all her
    children ...
     
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    jehovahisgod

    jehovahisgod Experienced Member

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    guys/ladys I came to a revelation! I can barely make sense of today, barely! so I flat out gave up on trying to figure out bible prophecy. I figured out that if I just do as god says without worrying about when this or that will happen then jehovah will take care of everything and I wont have to burn out the few brain cells I have left.
     
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    Joshuastone7

    Joshuastone7 Administrator Staff Member

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    Very astute and observant reasoning. In fact in the thread Beasts-Death-Stroke-Dan-7 I cover through scripture how Babylon is depicted throughout history. Scripture tells us that this same Babylon entity that you described here;

    still exists down till our day in it's present form. I usually don't throw out a definition before explaining the path to get to said reasoning, but I'm in a definitive mood today so I'll reveal the true identity of Babylon the great today... :) (Feel free to read more about Babylon's path through scripture here: Beasts-Death-Stroke-Dan-7)

    Babylon The Great is the Holy See!

    Babylon = Holy See
     
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    Utuna

    Utuna Administrator

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    Biblical verses, please... ;)

    1. BTG is a religious/spiritual institution
    2. BTG made kings and merchants wealthy
    3. BTG has the blood of prophets and Christ's followers on her hands
    4. BTG is known by multiple names
     
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    Utuna

    Utuna Administrator

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    Joshuastone7

    Joshuastone7 Administrator Staff Member

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    Babylon The Great

    Okay, here we go...

    So, how does scripture describe Babylon The Great? Let's see...

    "And the woman was arrayed in purple and scarlet, and was adorned with gold and precious stone and pearls and had in her hand a golden cup." (Rev 17:4)

    Anything in this scripture to denote that this entity is any richer then any other entity in scripture? We would have to say no, but that it simply says that they aren't drinking from Styrofoam cups and wearing burlap. We simply read that this woman is involved in showy display of ones means of wealth, nothing more!

    papalmass-800x600 - Copy.jpg

    Now, let's read on...

    “Here is where the intelligence that has wisdom comes in: The seven heads mean seven mountains, where the woman sits on top." (Rev 17:9)

    How does she sit on top of seven mountains? Well, this moment has not occurred yet because the eighth king has not risen as of this writing, however she is part of the the entity that will rise as the eighth king, and that is the UN. On April 6, 1964, when the Holy See was granted the status of permanent overseer state in the UN, it completely fulfilled Rev 13 as the lion's mouth in the conglomeration of the first beast.

    The Holy See, the episcopal see of Rome, dates back to early Christian times and is the entity spoken of in the book of Daniel, including chapters 2 and 7, those being of the head of gold and lion in one of the four of chapter seven.

    "And the woman whom you saw means the great city that has a kingdom over the kings of the earth.â€￾ (Rev 17:18)

    The trilateral Illuminati's entities are that of the United States military, the financial center of England and the Religious center of the Vatican City. These three make up this trilateral NWO looked forward too by the worlds elitists.

    "For because of the wine of the anger of her fornication all the nations have fallen victim, and the kings of the earth committed fornication with her," (Rev 18:3)

    What does this scripture mean by "fornication"? The Bible doesn't concern itself with internal strife of nations or their reasons for battles amongst each other, this is purely spiritual. This Babylon is the spiritual entity excepted by the nations. Hence the Holy See and it's connection to the UN and it's connection with every other country it's a player in! This is spiritual fornication away from the true God! Easily understood...

    "and the traveling merchants of the earth became rich due to the power of her shameless luxury.â€￾ (Rev 18:3b)

    Does this scripture say that the entity Babylon itself has made itself rich? No, it says the merchants of the earth. Has this not been true? Look at the gold, jewels, art, property etc that those of the world that have obtained under the Holy See's 1.2 billion members, making it the worlds largest Christian church! Do you think this scripture is talking about how rich this entity is, or is it talking about how this entity is acting and what it is focusing on? All you need to do is remember Jesus over turning the money changers in the temple, and pointing out the Jewish leaders garments. "Shameless luxury" is to denote that they aren't focusing on spiritual things and more on visual wealth. Can that be denied of the Holy See?

    [​IMG][​IMG]
    [​IMG]

    the Holy See is in fact Babylon the great and can be traced back to Rome of old on back to the original Babylon itself. Let alone it's scriptural connection throughout scripture, see; Beasts-Death-Stroke-Dan-7. This simply will be the entity that Jehovah is ashamed of that will ride the Eighth king, will come against gods people and hold them captive needing our father to call them out of, this same entity that is blood guilty of all Christians blood for 2000 years!

    I can be more thorough and go into details of history and scripture in a 10,000 word essay, but I tend to let others come with objections that I can overcome. So, let's hear it... :)
     
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    Utuna

    Utuna Administrator

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    BTG/Rome is a type/symbol of the ultimate opposing empire against God's purpose. The details in relation with Rome only point to a pattern of behaviour, not to this given entity.

    You asked : What does this scripture mean by "fornication"? The Bible doesn't concern itself with internal strife of nations or their reasons for battles amongst each other, this is purely spiritual.

    Good question !!! ;) But is it a good answer ? :p

    Please read : "And it must occur at the end of seventy years that Jehovah will turn his attention to Tyre, and she must return to her hire and commit prostitution with all the kingdoms of the earth upon the surface of the ground. And her profit and her hire must become something holy to Jehovah. It will not be stored up, nor be laid up, because her hire will come to be for those dwelling before Jehovah, for eating to satisfaction and for elegant covering." - Is 23:17-18

    Prostitution is not necessarily connected to a religious activity. Besides, spiritistic practice isn't necessarily linked here to religious deception either as the word ϕαρμακίᾳ used in Rev 18:23 also means :

    NT:5333

    2. pharmakos (ϕαρμακός), NT:5333), an adjective signifying "devoted to magical arts," is used as a noun, "a sorcerer," especially one who uses drugs, potions, spells, enchantments, Rev 21:8, in the best texts (some have pharmakeus), and 22:15.
    (from Vine's Expository Dictionary of Biblical Words, Copyright © 1985, Thomas Nelson Publishers.)

    Please compare with Rv17:2 : "with whom the kings of the earth committed fornication, whereas those who inhabit the earth were made drunk with the wine of her fornication.â€￾

    The apostle John would have been American, he would have written instead : "The harlot made them drink her Kool-Aid..." ;)

    I'm not saying here that BTG has no connection with religion, but just that it's not necessarily a religious entity.
     
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    Utuna

    Utuna Administrator

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    You said : "And the woman whom you saw means the great city that has a kingdom over the kings of the earth.â€￾ (Rev 17:18)

    The trilateral Illuminati's entities are that of the United States military, the financial center of England and the Religious center of the Vatican City. These three make up this trilateral NWO looked forward too by the worlds elitists.


    The Illuminatis are mentionned....? I therefore consider that statement as irrelevant.
     
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    Joshuastone7

    Joshuastone7 Administrator Staff Member

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    Then good thing it's not just a guess... ;)

    The first four beasts of Dan 7 correlate with two different time periods. Number one in that of the immense image of Nebuchadnezzar's dream representing Babylon/Medo-Persia/Greece/Rome. (Dan 2:31) The other of current world powers and entities today. We understand the fourth beast of Nebuchadnezzar's dream to represent Rome and presented as the 6th king of Rev 17:10 that existed at the time of its writing, and through history that 6th king progresses into an Anglo-American world power making up the seventh kingdom. This seventh kingdom is represented in that fourth "fearsome" beast of Dan 7 along with it's ten horns.

    Now the battle between North and South rages on for millenia and we can trace their actions through Dan 11 all the way down to our day. As we pick up their history just before the second world war we see them both joined together in a union in that of the Anglo-American dual power in that fourth beast of Dan 7. One being the oligarchical rule behind the scene centered in London and the South represented by the democratic form of government. No better example then that of the British government with a queen behind the scene but a democratic front. We also know that the three beasts of Dan 7 also are representative of world powers today because we see them combined in that beast out of the sea in Rev 13. Notice that the fourth beast is not pictured in that combined beast, and as well only seven heads.

    Now, there is a small horn seen coming from the fourth beast of Dan 7. There's no doubt this horn is the UN. Without getting to much into why, briefly the UN is the catalyst for the king of the North to establish a NWO. The beast itself had already contained ten horns itself and well represented this Anglo-American conglomeration and as well the ten horns in the form of the League of Nations. Now when this small horn came to be in the late stages of the second world war the three horns that fell from before it were Germany/Japan/Italy each being one of the "first" or founding members of that League.

    Now, the death stroke to the seventh head of the first beast in Rev 13 is the blow the North took in the second world war and the oligarchy rule. If it were not for the Anglo-American loan to the British that 7th head would not have survived after the second world war. Again that first beast in Rev 13 has seven heads, not eight. It comes from the sea, not the abyss. The eighth king comes from the abyss. Now let's look at that event.

    In the time of the end the king of the North will come against the king of the south. (Dan 11:40) The result of that will be the destruction of that 7th king and the fourth beast of Dan 7; “I kept on beholding at that time because of the sound of the grandiose words that the horn was speaking; I kept on beholding until the beast was killed and its body was destroyed and it was given to the burning fire." (Dan 7:11) That fourth beast is killed, body destroyed and given to the burning fire. There is no coming back from that, that's the second death. Now the horn is well alive when this happens because it's speaking grandiose words before the beast is killed, therefore there is no way that the eighth king comes about after the fall of the Anglo-American system of things because that small horn exists well before the beast from which it comes from is killed. In fact in verse twelve we see that this beast, and the seventh king of Rev 17 is killed only 450 days before the end of all nations on earth completely. Then out of that death of the 7th king comes the 8th king from out of the abyss in Rev 17! The two beasts of Rev 13 and the beast in Rev 17 are all obviously separate entities coming from different sources in that of the sea, earth and abyss and can be explained through chronology. If there is a single paradox in chronology then the understanding is incorrect.

    The second beast of Rev 13 is the missing beast from Dan 7. It is that Anglo-American dual power. It is the result of that death stroke to the first beast and brings to life that American, British conglomerate which then brings forth fire from heaven in the sight of the UN when it drops two atomic weapons on Japan ending the second world war. (Rev 13:13) It creates an image of the first beast, in that of the actual location of the UN in New York, for before that the UN had no actual visual location. Financed of course by the North and those elitist looking forward to their NWO and the end of the democratic rule.

    Okay, now let's address Dan 8;


    The great battle between the ram and the he-goat. What we are going to determine here is does this vision have a modern day fulfillment? Let's look;

    "And he proceeded to say to me: “Understand, O son of man, that the vision is for the time of [the] end." (Dan 8:17b)

    So the visions in the 8th chapter pertain to the time of the end according to verse 17. So without a doubt the vision of the ram and he-goat carry a dual prophecy in that of their original completion in that war between Medo-Persia and that of Greece however, just as the angel Gabriel tells Daniel, this vision is also meant for the "time of the end". In what way and how are we to determine how this vision gives us information of the time of the end? Let's look;

    In our studies into Dan 7 we come to realize that the second chapter of Daniel and it's immense image becomes a map in understanding the beasts in chapter 7. We have a clear understanding of who the first beast in that of the lion represents, and as well that fourth beast, but how about the other two? Well Dan 8 will help us with that. Using our immense image in chapter 2 as a ruler we can determine who this ram and he-goat is representative of in the time of the end.

    “The ram that you saw possessing the two horns [stands for] the kings of Me′di·a and Persia." (Dan 8:20)

    "And the hairy he-goat [stands for] the king of Greece;" (Dan 8:21)

    “And after you there will rise another kingdom inferior to you; and another kingdom, a third one, of copper, that will rule over the whole earth.." (Dan 2:39)

    "And, see there! another beast, a second one, it being like a bear. And on one side it was raised up, and there were three ribs in its mouth between its teeth; and this is what they were saying to it, ‘Get up, eat much flesh.’" (Dan 7:5)

    “After this I kept on beholding, and, see there! another [beast],one like a leopard, but it had four wings of a flying creature on its back. And the beast had four heads, and there was given to it rulership indeed." (Dan 7:6)

    So there we have it, we understand that the ram represents the second beast of Dan 7 and that of the bear, and the he-goat represents the third of the leopard. Briefly what we are about to show moving on here is that in fact the 8th chapter of Daniel is describing the first world war and that of the League of Nations. Let's get right into it;

    This battle is that of the age old battle between North and South. Chapter 11 of Dan is really a complete history of these battles. So let's pull from it this battle between the ram and he-goat;

    “And he will arouse his power and his heart against the king of the south with a great military force; and the king of the south, for his part, will excite himself for the war with an exceedingly great and mighty military force. And he will not stand, because they will scheme out against him schemes. And the very ones eating his delicacies will bring his breakdown.“And as for his military force, it will be flooded away, and many will certainly fall down slain. “And as regards these two kings, their heart will be inclined to doing what is bad, and at one table a lie is what they will keep speaking. But nothing will succeed, because [the] end is yet for the time appointed. “And he will go back to his land with a great amount of goods, and his heart will be against the holy covenant. And he will act effectively and certainly go back to his land." (Dan 11:25-28)

    Now as to these two kings identities in the time of the end;

    "When I raised my eyes, then I saw, and, look! a ram standing before the watercourse, and it had two horns. And the two horns were tall, but the one was taller than the other, and the taller was the one that came up afterward. I saw the ram making thrusts to the west and to the north and to the south, and no wild beasts kept standing before it, and there was no one doing any delivering out of its hand. And it did according to its will, and it put on great airs." (Dan 8:3,4)

    Now who in the first world war represents these two horns? None other then the German-Austria/Hungary Central Powers and that of the North. The second being taller that came after was of course Germany being just a few years younger then its partner. Now quickly on to that he-goat;

    "And I, for my part, kept on considering, and, look! there was a male of the goats coming from the sunset upon the surface of the whole earth, and it was not touching the earth. And as regards the he-goat, there was a conspicuous horn between its eyes." (Dan 8:5)

    Here we have the Allies in that of the South, the French, Brits, Russia. That not touching the earth? No doubt the first use of airplanes in warfare!

    Now, how do we know that this vision is meant to represent WWI in the common era? Well let's take a look. Seen between its eyes is a conspicuous horn, not one understanding ambiguous sayings but conspicuous. In fact we know this horn is before the small horn that comes from the fourth beast of Dan 7 for look;

    "And the male of the goats, for its part, put on great airs to an extreme; but as soon as it became mighty, the great horn was broken, and there proceeded to come up conspicuously four instead of it, toward the four winds of the heavens." (Dan 8:8)

    That horn was broken as soon as it became mighty and there proceeded to come up four instead of it toward the four winds! Remember Dan 7 and those four beasts from the four winds? Yep!

    “I happened to be beholding in my visions during the night, and, see there! the four winds of the heavens were stirring up the vast sea. And four huge beasts were coming up out of the sea, each one being different from the others." (Dan 7:2)

    So we are made to understand that the 7th chapter of Dan in chronology actually comes after chapter 8! That horn that was between the eyes of the he-goat was the conglomeration of the king of the south in the Allie powers that defeat the ram in that of the Central Powers. But once that occurs the horn is broken and the four beasts come from the four winds in Daniel 7, it is not till then that a small horn is seen coming from one of those four. Look here;

    "And out of one of them there came forth another horn, a small one, and it kept getting very much greater toward the south and toward the sunrising and toward the Decoration." (Dan 8:9)

    "I kept on considering the horns, and, look! another horn, a small one," (Dan 7:8)

    These two horns are of course the same entity because we know both are said coming against gods people and removing the constant feature.

    So according to scripture who can we determine is to be represented by the bear and leopard of Dan 7? The allies being that of the leopard and it's four heads and wings and the Axis being that of the bear coming into WWII. Those three ribs in the mouth of the bear? They are the king of the North and those three Axis members of Germany/Italy/Japan. Those are the very three horns that fall before the small horn that comes up from the fourth beast. Those three horns originally being part of that conspicuous horn in Chapter 8, or first king!

    Babylon and the lion? Oh, Babylon The Great is most definitely alive today, the Holy See...
     
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    Utuna

    Utuna Administrator

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    I'm sorry but I don't understand what your explanations in connection with Daniel have to do with the Holy See ?
     
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    Joshuastone7

    Joshuastone7 Administrator Staff Member

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    It's a matter of process of elimination. If I'm not mistaken, and let me know if I am, you have the idea that BTG has the identity of Rome?

    If Babylon is depicted by the head of the immense statue in Daniel 2, and Rome that of it's legs, and as well Babylon is depicted as a separate beast in Daniel 7 then it can be deferred that Babylon is it's own entity separate from Rome. So at that point one would look at the evidence left. Number one, what can be taken from Babylon as a potential identity of it, or it's contribution to the world society as a whole, and as well holds a membership status as one of the conglomeration of Rev 13.

    Then you have it's description. Responsible for all righteous blood being spilled, shameless display of ones means of wealth, involvement in government affairs, "which I still believe is what is mentioned by the "fornication"". The fact she is described as a women denotes a "seed" or spiritual organization. I say denotes because that may not always be the case in scripture such as a women being depicted as sin in Zechariah.

    Jehovah's people are world wide. If they are to go into captivity under Babylon the Great at some point it must be a world wide entity, and this occurs before the eighth king arises. Would Jehovah describe a separate world government in such detail in Rev? Does it not seem more likely that this "women" is a possible seed of Christ, or bride that is seen as a harlot by riding that beast, meaning being a part of that worldly government?

    Sense the Holy See is the actual legal identity of the Roman Catholic church that is a member of the United Nations, it is itself the lions mouth that is part of the beast in Rev 13, and will one day be that women that rides the beast in Rev 17 after the UN comes up from the ashes of America going down and becomes the eighth king with the Holy See riding it's back.
     
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    Joshuastone7

    Joshuastone7 Administrator Staff Member

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    You know, sitting here thinking about this subject this morning, I think I can concede at least a couple of things. If your familiar with my writings you know I believe the beasts of Rev 13 currently exists but that the beast in Rev 17 has not risen from the abyss yet. I would concede that I do believe that the Holly See is the Lions mouth of the first beast of Rev 13. After Anglo-America goes down and the final scarlet beast arises it's possible that the Harlot could include the Holy See and as well The World Council Of Religious Leaders, and then once the disgusting thing is placed to be worshiped they destroy world false religion.

    It may very well be a case that this is one subject that can not fully be understood until the Harlot is seen however, I do say that the Holly See is the Lions mouth of the first beast of Rev 13, and that it is possible that the WCORL could be collectively the Harlot when the eighth king arises.
     
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    SingleCell

    SingleCell Experienced Member

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    I'm a useless sack-o-potatoes sometimes :)

    1. Rev 17:4

    The woman was clothed in purple+ and scarlet, and she was adorned with gold and precious stones and pearls,+ and she had in her hand a golden cup that was full of disgusting things and the unclean things of her sexual immorality.

    A) "she" is a harlot. A literal prostitute? No, I think this is a 'harlot' because she WAS a faithful 'bride', but like Israel 'prostituted' herself to 'foreign gods'

    B) she made people 'drunk' from her 'wine'. See Joel 1 for a reference about 'spiritual drunkenness' from 'wine'. (not as a correlation to BTG, but a principle for interpretation)

    2. Rev 18:3

    For because of the wine of the passion* of her sexual immorality,* all the nations have fallen victim,+ and the kings of the earth committed sexual immorality with her,+ and the merchants* of the earth became rich owing to the power of her shameless luxury.â€￾

    Merchants became wealthy in a physical sense, 'kings of the earth' used her (sexually = spiritual perversion) to secure power / wealth over their respective populations.

    3. Rev 18:24, 17:6

    "Yes, in her was found the blood of prophets and of holy ones"

    "And I saw that the woman was drunk with the blood of the holy ones and with the blood of the witnesses of Jesus."

    4. Upon consideration, I was wrong here.


    “On her forehead was written a name, a mystery: Babylon the Great, the mother of the prostitutes+ and of the disgusting things of the earth.â€￾

    I was extrapolating from the 'mystery' of the name, but there is no reason to conclude that it isn't "one" name on her forehead. Using my previous assertion that being a 'mother' makes her a unique entity, with one name.
     
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    SingleCell

    SingleCell Experienced Member

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    Some other clues to backup the idea that the Roman Catholic church is BTG:

    -----------

    "No light of a lamp will ever shine in you again, and no voice of a bridegroom and of a bride will ever be heard in you again"

    What lamp? What bride? What bridegroom?

    The holy spirit, the bride of Christ, and Christ himself.

    -----------

    On the surface, the description of her in purple, gold and jewels.

    Pope+in+purple+Lent.jpg

    -----------

    "For she keeps saying in her heart: ‘I sit as queen, and I am not a widow, and I will never see mourning.’"

    Rev 18:7b

    A queen? Not a widow? Never see mourning?

    "The mother of God" -> Mary -> bride of Christ -> Queen ("Queendom" is baked into the Catholic cake)

    Transubstantiation -> Christ is literally present in the flesh (not a widow)

    The "true church established by Peter" -> above earthly governments -> "conquered the world" (never see mourning)

    -----------

    Interestingly, this has been understood for almost 700 years now. (perhaps longer)

    But modern Christendom has largely dropped this interpretation, instead moving towards 'ecumenicism'.

    The WTBS opts for the 'ALL false religion' interpretation to bolster it's own "pure language" interpretation; hence they don't simply call BTG the "Catholic Church" but ALL Christian churches and ALL other religions.

    But the WTBS interpretation doesn't make sense, for the reasons outlined. (not that my reasoning is any better, but I think it debunks the "All false religion" claim.)


    BTG must be a Christian institution (get out of her MY people). She must be tied in with secular governments explicitly as an institution they recognize, not as nebulous 'false religion'. (how else can they mourn her)

    And she must have given birth to other similar 'harlots'. (Orthodoxy, Protestantism)
     
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    SingleCell

    SingleCell Experienced Member

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    I like it!

    Lion / Christ -> "word of God" -> (mixed with) Wild Beast / 'false prophet' -> unclean expression -> false "Lions voice"

    I'm going to respond to your other thoughts in a bit; I wish I could retire and just research this stuff all day!

    (edit: and I see we're kinda posting similar info - I have an idea - let's throw together some framework conceptions + scripture proofs ... I'll get back later)
     
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