If (Babylon the Great == X) Then ....

Discussion in 'Bible Prophecy' started by SingleCell, Dec 11, 2013.

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    SingleCell

    SingleCell Experienced Member

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    Jan I partially agree with your assessment.

    However, I would argue that it is the two covenants (New and Old) which fulfill the prophecies.

    See Romans 11 (evidence that Israel will be brought back in), Zechariah 12 (1/3 of the tribes realize they killed the Messiah) and the notion that Sarah and Hagar represent the two covenants in Galatians 4 (evidence that the drama applies to Israel and the Israel of God).
     
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    Jan Active Member

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    Nice that l am not completely alone believing this.

    But I did not understand your point about the two covenants. Did you mean that the old covenant that came in place at Mount Sinai through Moses is still in force for the literal Israel?

    I don't understand it that way. But I understand that the promises God gave Abraham is the reason that Israel will dwell in Israel. And Jerusalem is a special chosen city for God not only because David ruled from there. But because MeIchisedek ruled there as Jehovah's king and priest in Abrahams day's. And also because God ordered to build a temple there a the past and also because it was the city where Jehovah sacrificed his son Jesus to save the humanity.

    Some even claim that geographically Jerusalem is the centre ot the world. Saying that if you draw a line from north to south through Jerusalem and in the same way from west to east, you get equal amount of dry land on each 4 parts of the globe.
     
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    Jan Active Member

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    More fuel to the fire. More indications that New York is the modern day "mother of disgusting things", Babylon the Great.
    I just accidentally came across information on the web about Sayville, in NewYork. That this part of New York was already before world war 2 a center for homosexuals and that this part of NY has so many homosexual residents that it is called Gayville.

    Also the below link, link Sayville to spiritism. Very fitting also to the description of Babylon the Great. Because it is said, that Babylon the Great misleads by spiritism.

    Here is one link: http://www.jesus-is-savior.com/Evils in America/Sodomy/gayville.htm
     
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    Jan Active Member

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    Hi All,
    l found valuable information on how freemasons have influenced and caused wars since the time of the crusaders and their war on Islam recently. Also these videos talk about the Islamic prophecy about a one world ruler, dajjal, that is very similar to the promised Man of Lawlessness described in 2 Thessalonians.

    So applying Man of Lawlessness to the Governing Body is only very specific for ex-jw. And very doubtful.

    In order to better understand who is responsible for wars, killings now and in the past, see these documentaries. Because this is a clue in identifying Babylon the Great.

    New World Order, Freemasons 1/6: http://youtu.be/nJnkun0ZyiY

    New World Order, Freemasons 2/6: http://youtu.be/uhAKN6c3XNs

    New World Order, Freemasons 5/6: http://youtu.be/BgeFUWGwvwo

    New World Order, Freemasons 6/6: http://youtu.be/zTuSZ5HVFaM
     
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    Jan Active Member

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    This is a good documentary video in the same serie about how Freemasons through for example Simpsons condition people to accept a single ruler of the world that will claim to be God, just as the Man of Lawlessness is told to say in 2 Thessalonians.

    Free Masons War Against Islam Part 3/6: http://youtu.be/-30i_6-Wz60
     
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    Joshuastone7

    Joshuastone7 Administrator Staff Member

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    What is the temple of God in 2th 2:4?
     
  7. 2

    Hi All:

    The temple of 2thess. 2 is not the physical temple built with granite stones or literal stones of any kind, but are built with "living stones" and in order to be a part of that temple, you must be a "living stone", one who is "born again" by spirit and part of the Bride of the Christ.

    YLT Jn 17:12 when I was with them in the world, I was keeping them in Thy name; those whom Thou hast given to me I did guard, and none of them was destroyed,
    . Youngs Literal Translation

    So, all those that were part of the temple of God were "given" to Jesus as "born again", living stones who could properly form the temple of God. Judas could not fit that bill right from the beginning although he was "born again", his spirit anointing came from a different place for a specific purpose.

    For Jesus knew from the beginning those who did not believe and the one who would betray him.+ 65 He went on to say: “This is why I have said to you, no one can come to me unless it is granted him by the Father.â€￾+ John 6:64, 65 N WT

    Jesus knew that Judas was brought to him, not to be a part of his bride, but to be the "man of lawlessness", the son of destruction. Angelic beings whether they be good or bad, true sons of the living god or sons of the Devil know who are who and who belongs to who. They know if you are born again or not and by whom you are born again. By Christ or Belial.

    But some of the Jews who traveled around casting out demons also tried to use the name of the Lord Jesus over those who had wicked spirits; they would say: “I solemnly charge you by Jesus whom Paul preaches.â€￾+ 14 Now there were seven sons of a Jewish chief priest named Sce′va doing this. 15 But in answer the wicked spirit said to them: “I know Jesus+ and I am acquainted with Paul;+ but who are you?â€￾ Acts 19:13-15 NWT

    The demons (who are born again from Satan) know who else are born again, and who are not. They recognized Paul and Jesus because they could clearly see that they were born again from God, but the 7 sons of Sceva, not so much. Judas was born again, but not from the Father. He was born again by his Father, Satan who also plants seeds in people's hearts.

    He presented another illustration to them, saying: “The Kingdom of the heavens may be likened to a man who sowed fine seed in his field. 25 While men were sleeping, his enemy came and oversowed weeds in among the wheat and left. 26 When the stalk sprouted and produced fruit, then the weeds also appeared.

    So, after Jesus plants his seeds, many of which would become "born again" and possibly be a part of his Bride, Satan was also planting seeds in people's hearts, not the same hearts that Jesus planted his seeds, but different ones, ones who were more disposed to his message, they would grow as weeds. Judas was one of these, he was a "weed" from the beginning , not wheat who went bad.

    Likewise, the man of lawlessness, the son of destruction during the two days of the Lord (1st presence in the first and second centuries) and the second presence of the Christ in our time is someone whose heart had a big old weed seed planted in his heart. But he was planted in among the wheat and may have grown even thinking that he was really wheat, but he never was, he was always the man of lawlessness, the son of destruction. Oh yes, he was "born again" but not by Jehovah God but by the adversary, the devil.

    This entity exists now in the Watchtower and has for some time now. He may actually think he is part of Christ's Bride, but he is not. No doubt there are more than one who fit this description. They represent themselves as being a part of the New Covenant that Jesus made with his Bride, but they are not, they are counterfeit Christ's, posing as god's in the Temple of "living stones". Soon Jesus (through the remnant of his wife, his Bride) will root them out with his mouth at the manifestation of his presence, which will happen very soon.

    frank
     
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    Jan Active Member

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    To me it is quite clear that it talks about a future literal temple of God in Jerusalem. But of course it takes more faith to believe it that way instead of taking it m a symbolic manner.
     
  9. Hi Jan:

    That is an interestiing statement that you made, but could you explain to me how it takes more faith to believe in a literal future temple made from literal stone and mortar than it does to place your faith in the building of a temple out of "living" stones?

    “Our forefathers had the tent of the witness in the wilderness, just as He gave orders when speaking to Moses to make it according to the pattern he had seen.+ 45 And our forefathers received possession of it and brought it in with Joshua into the land possessed by the nations,+ whom God drove out from before our forefathers.+ Here it remained until the days of David. 46 He found favor in the sight of God and asked for the privilege of providing a dwelling place for the God of Jacob.+ 47 But it was Sol′o·mon who built a house for him.+ 48 However, the Most High does not dwell in houses made with hands,+ just as the prophet says: 49 ‘The heaven is my throne,+ and the earth is my footstool.+ What sort of house will you build for me? Jehovah* says. Or where is my resting-place? 50 My hand made all these things, did it not?’ Acts 7

    The God who made the world and all the things in it, being, as he is, Lord of heaven and earth,+ does not dwell in handmade temples;+ 25 nor is he served by human hands as if he needed anything,+ because he himself gives to all people life and breath+ and all things. Acts 17

    And what agreement does God’s temple have with idols?+ For we are a temple of a living God;+ just as God said: “I will reside among them+ and walk among them, and I will be their God, and they will be my people.â€+ 2 Cor. 6

    As you come to him [Jesus], a living stone rejected by men+ but chosen, precious to God,+ 5 you yourselves as living stones are being built up into a spiritual house+ to be a holy priesthood, in order to offer up spiritual sacrifices+ acceptable to God through Jesus Christ.+ 6 For it says in Scripture: “Look! I am laying in Zion a chosen stone, a precious foundation cornerstone, and no one exercising faith in it will ever be disappointed.â€

    For since the Law has a shadow+ of the good things to come,+ but not the very substance of the things, it* can never, by the same sacrifices that are continually offered year after year, make those who approach perfect.

    Place your faith Jan in the real temple of the living God that is made from "living" stones and Jesus as the chief cornerstone and Peter as the first "living" stone laid in that temple. The rest of the temple building is made from the Bride of Christ, not granite or bricks or whatever man made building materials there might be.

    In response Jesus said to him: “Happy you are, Simon son of Jo′nah, because flesh and blood* did not reveal it to you, but my Father in the heavens did.+ 18 Also, I say to you: You are Peter,+ and on this rock [Jesus as the foundation] + I will build my congregation, and the gates of the Grave* will not overpower it.

    This temple will never crumble from time and the elements nor from the onslaught of man.


    frank
     
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    Jan Active Member

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    Hi Frank, I totally agree that those christians in which God's spirit dwells are God's temple. Just as all these beautiful scriptures say.
    But think about this: After the 120 disciples where baptized with holy spirit in year 33 they where God's invisible temple in the sense that others could not see any temple in them. But in the same time existed God's visible temple and the disciples used that structure to teach people about Jesus as long as it was possible.
    So a visible temple, a building dedicated to Jehovah God does not contradict a spiritual temple made up of christians in which God dwells by means of his holy spirit, his active force.

    This spiritual temple is something very beautiful and holy, it is not an earthly building, structure or organization.
    In this elevated holy spiritual temple is no place or entrance for any defiled or for the worst ever person, the coming antichrist, the man of lawlessness, the right hand of Satan, who will do wonders and miracles by the power of Satan.
    Impossible that he could be in the spiritual temple, but he could rather be in a building dedicated to Jehovah God.
    In Jerusalem there is a temple institute that have already prepared , if I am right all the utensils for the third temple, and they prepare priests to conduct offerings and worship there. And they have prepared blueprints for the third temple and they have made a quite big model of the temple.
    And to whom do you think they will dedicate the third temple when they will build it?
    I expect it to be for Jehovah God, because these Jews read the Torah and say they believe in the God of Abraham.
    So the temple would be for Jehovah God.
    I don't find anything wrong if they build a third temple for Jehovah God. It could then remain there after Armaggedon and serve as a assembly hall.
     
  11. Hi Jan:

    You are free to believe anything you want to. If the Catholic Church built the biggest, most beautiful temple on earth that has ever been built, would Jehovah inhabit that structure by spirit? Of course he would not. He will not inhabit one built by the Jews either, there is no difference.

    They say that they believe in the God of Abraham, do they? So did the Pharisees and Sadducee s of the first Century.

    They replied to him: “We are Abraham’s offspring and never have been slaves to anyone. How is it you say, ‘You will become free’?†John 8:33 then at vs 37 Jesus says this-

    I know that you are Abraham’s offspring. But you are seeking to kill me, because my word makes no progress among you. finally at vs. 40-44,

    Jesus said to them: “If you were Abraham’s children,+ you would be doing the works of Abraham. 40 But now you are seeking to kill me, a man who has told you the truth that I heard from God.+ Abraham did not do this. 41 You are doing the works of your father.†They said to him: “We were not born from immorality;* we have one Father, God.†42 Jesus said to them: “If God were your Father, you would love me,+ for I came from God and I am here. I have not come of my own initiative, but that One sent me.+ 43 Why do you not understand what I am saying? Because you cannot listen to my word. 44 You are from your father the Devil, and you wish to do the desires of your father.+ That one was a murderer when he began,*+ and he did not stand fast in the truth, because truth is not in him. When he speaks the lie, he speaks according to his own disposition, because he is a liar and the father of the lie.

    Jan, why do you think that things will be different in the future? We become children of God by his standards, not our own. People only want to believe in God under their own standards. The only Temple that God accepts is the one not built with hands but is built by God with "living" stones.

    frank
     
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    Jan Active Member

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    Yes Frank, but the question was about who is or will be the man of lawlessness and where will he be and tell the world he is God?
     
  13. Hi Jan:

    2 Thess. 2:3 says this;

    Let no one lead you astray* in any way, because it will not come unless the apostasy+ comes first and the man of lawlessness+ gets revealed, the son of destruction.


    Jan, where is the apostasy that is mentioned in 2 Thess. going to occur? In Christendom? In Judaism? or in true Christianity?

    If your answer is true Christianity, where is that? is it the Catholics, some protestant sect? Or, is it within the organization of Jehovah's Witnesses, who have been tasked by Almighty God and Mighty God to gather the remaining ones of Christ's Bride?

    Also, when you here the term "the son of destruction", what does that make you think of? I know when I read that I cannot help but think that it's talking about some kind of Judas figure. Why? Read this next scripture and you will find out...

    When I was with them, I used to watch over them+ on account of your own name, which you have given me; and I have protected them, and not one of them is destroyed+ except the son of destruction,+ so that the scripture might be fulfilled. John 17:12

    Judas was the only one that Jesus said that was lost, yet Jesus did not "lose" him because he was never "fine soil" from the very beginning. Judas had a seed planted in his heart, but it was not Kingdom seed but was from the opposer, the Devil. Yes Judas was "born again" like the rest of the Apostles but instead of having a Mother from heaven, he had a Mother from among the administration of the Devil's angels.

    The same thing is true within the Watchtower today. There is a man, or there are "men" who have been born again, but not from above, but from below. They masquerade as those who are a part of Christ's Bride, but they are not. They are deceivers and their task (whether they are conscious of it or not) is to destroy God's plan at all costs.

    He, or they have certainly used their influence to help direct the Governing Body to make dreadful decisions in the past, the worst being the adulterous relationship with the U.N. and the eventual cover-up of the same. Another is the maneuvering of men to the Governing Body who are not a part of Christ's Bride. Some may even be part of the Devils Bride instead, others are well meaning men who have been deceived by the best.

    The worst thing about this whole thing is that I think through my understanding of the scriptures that they know this is happening (not that they necessarily knew from the beginning) but feel they are too far along in the folly to turn back now. But that will all change soon. Soon, one or more from the Governing Body or their close associates will have a burst of conscience and will expose the whole unholy plot for all to see.

    Then, indeed, the lawless one will be revealed, whom the Lord Jesus will do away with by the spirit of his mouth+ and bring to nothing by the manifestation+ of his presence. 9 But the lawless one’s presence is by the operation of Satan+ with every powerful work and lying signs and wonders*+ 10 and every unrighteous deception+ for those who are perishing, as a retribution because they did not accept the love of the truth in order that they might be saved. 2 Thess. 2:8-10

    Some will find this too devastating to their faith and will be severely injured by the news, others will be revived to new heights of faith, cause they always knew that something was amiss, but just could not put their finger on it, or dared not so as not to be disfellowshipped as an "opposer".

    And finally the true members of the remnant of Christ's Bride will be revealed for all to see and know.
    Yes, these ones will come from the Watchtower as they are the collecting vessel for the Bride of Christ, but they won't be who you think they are. Just wait and see. It would not be a "revealing" if the members were already known.

    frank
     
  14. Hi Jan:

    I forgot to mention this, and it is a very important point, I think. When the Bible uses the word God, or god it does not necessarily mean Almighty God, you know that. It really just means a "mighty one" and when it is used to reference Jehovah it takes on the meaning of "Almighty One". So, this person or persons will stand up in the "Temple" of God, which is the remaining ones of Christ's Bride, and say that he or they are part of that Bride, when they are not. They are currently doing this and have been doing so for over a decade now. This is no future event, it has already happened and is happening as we speak. Each time one of the Governing Body represents themselves as one of Christ's Bride, they are lying (and they know at this time they are lying). They are in essence in the Temple of God, saying that they are God. Judas was an imposter and so are they.

    frank
     
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    Jan Active Member

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    I know other exjws that are very hurt by how they were treated by the organization. And I think this influences, the hurt feelings, how they understand this prophecy.
    But I would suggest them all to imitate Joseph's and David's example of willingness to forgive. And look for man of lawlessness somewhere else. There are too many points in the prophecy that does not directly in any way fit Governing body.
    And a true apostacy is when people that use to confess faith in Jesus will instead reject him. People of different churches still in large numbers confess faith in Jesus and his resurrection. And they have also missionaries that try to convert muslims, jews, hindus, buddists and have some success.
     
  16. Hi Jan:

    Like I said before, you can believe what you like. Since time immemorial God has chosen to deal with one particular people. For millennia it was the Abraham and his seed, theJews, then Jesus came and started the Christian Congregation and Jehovah has dealt through the Christian Congregation and that is defined by having members of Christ's Bride (true members) within it's ranks. Are you trying to say that at this late date there are still members of Christ's Bride amongst Christendom and Judaism? Is that what you are saying? These days and since Jesus walked the earth, Jehovah only deals with his son, or the flesh of his son, the Bride. Wake up Jan.

    frank
     
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    SingleCell

    SingleCell Experienced Member

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    Agreed.

    IF the JWs end up being the persecuted people during a ban on religion or a forced 'world religion', then perhaps 2 Thess 2 applies to the GB presuming they mislead us from Christ ... (doubtful)

    Until then I'm skeptical.

    I haven't studied the MOL enough to find the OT conception to compare with, but that seems like the beginning point to understanding the prophecy; but off the cuff perhaps the MOL is a religio-political intrusion into Christian worship.

    The time of there being one 'organization' dedicated to Jehovah is over. I believe it's in Acts where Peter says "I perceive that a man doing good in any nation is acceptable to God"

    That certainly doesn't mean that there isn't a true group of believers, but to build dividing walls between different doctrinal understanding (churches) seems like a tactic of Satan rather than a division by Jehovah.
     
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    Joshuastone7

    Joshuastone7 Administrator Staff Member

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    What about accurate knowledge?
     
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    There is quite much information om the internet that the masons want to put in place an antichrist and fulfill 2 Thess2 chapter.
    So why could this not then become the fulfillment of the prophecy?

    Interesting that the major religions of the world expect something like that to come.
    I have heard different names for him : Dajjal, Mehdi, Matreya, Antichrist.
     
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    SingleCell

    SingleCell Experienced Member

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    Certainly a pertinent question!

    Let's say this is the total breadth of knowledge:

    |-----------------|

    Where on that line would you place yourself, JWs, Lutherans, other Christians, etc? [you don't have to actually answer]

    And what is the (accurate) knowledge the Bible is recommending to us? [this is the question]

    It seems to me the accurate knowledge we need to know is that the man Jesus is the sacrificial Lamb of God, and demonstrate actions supporting that revelation.

    There is also progressive revelation of knowledge for those who study God's word.

    Conclusion, in my opinion:

    IF JWs are the ONLY ones with knowledge, then I could see our congregations being the figurative seat of the MOL. (perhaps the GB, perhaps someone who brings in 'new light' publicly)

    IF other Christians have knowledge, then I could see the entire Christian system becoming the figurative seat of the MOL. (E.G. the religio-political system I mentioned)



    "Accurate" Knowledge - isn't all knowledge accurate? Otherwise, it's not knowledge :)

    Therefore, the fallacy of the WTBS interpretation of this verse [in my estimation], is that they don't understand the progressive nature of Jehovah's revelation to man, and are quick to condemn those who aren't closer to them on the scale of available knowledge.

    The water is admittedly muddy, there are 'doctrines of demons' that lead people to their destruction.
     
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