If (Babylon the Great == X) Then ....

Discussion in 'Bible Prophecy' started by SingleCell, Dec 11, 2013.

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    Utuna

    Utuna Administrator

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    The failure of the GB to provide accurate knowledge in the long run (I mean, despite the great new and accurate understandings that took place 100 years ago by their predecessors) proves that the all-out race to knowledge is a waste of time. Yes, the JWs are the less wrong on many issues (which is why I'm still one of them) but they also have dropped many useful and pertinent biblical subjects taught by the clergy or else and which would have been decisive in the understanding by the R&F JWs of major biblical prophecies and features.

    Ask any rank and file JW what they think about the marriage of the Lamb or about what Elijah is supposed to be/mean in the last days ?

    I already know the answer, it'll be two letters only : Uh ?

    Accurate knowledge is a STILL a myth and as a consequence, we'll have to make do with what we have on hand until further notice...

    Edit : Paul says in his letters that the anointed ones are God's temple. That's the only thing we know for sure.
     
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    SingleCell

    SingleCell Experienced Member

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    Yes indeed, well stated.

    Anyone who calls themselves Christian sees through a hazy mirror at present.

    We (JWs) are certainly less wrong about basic doctrine, but in my mind we are wrong about Jehovah's mercy and desire to save.

    As if he will destroy professing Christians for ignorantly not understanding doctrine ... (the priest / pastor class are another matter! - but even so, US pronouncing destruction on them is INSANE)

    JW prophecy is a trap basically, because it forces these insane judgments against people predicated on BTG and other necessarily following conceptions from the 1914 date.

    Which ... actually lends weight to the notion that the GB is the MOL, and given the JW zeal for the ministry, and Jehovah himself ... it's easy to build a case that we are Jehovah's people who will be dressed in sackcloth during that initial 1260.
     
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    http://www.share-international.org/index.htm

    Please check this link for information about the coming Great Teacher.
    This will be very very very helpful to understand the fulfillment of 2 Thess 2.

    This website is promoting the coming savior of the world, and gives information about who it is, a real person living now. And he has introduced himself all ready to world leaders that believes him. He has been active since 1988 and there is a photo of him and miracles related to him and predictions that have come true.
     
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    Joshuastone7

    Joshuastone7 Administrator Staff Member

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    I believe the idea that Jehovah has changed is flawed, let me explain. Has he not always had a singular group on earth who represent accurate knowledge? Did he not have a physical location known as the Temple in the first century? Did they have all the answers, or just the answers Jehovah required of them to retain his favor? Why was it the Jews he favored, was it not because they knew who the true God was? Now, why was the temple allowed to be destroyed and subsequently the Jews fell out of favor? Because they did not have accurate knowledge of that which Jehovah requires to retain his spirit. I have to say that this point cannot be overstated. It is in fact the very foundation of our gaining any hope of survival after this world.

    From some that I read here it seems you believe that Christs brothers could be in all walks of life and beliefs. I'm sorry but that flies in the face of fundamental scripture. Why would Jehovah favor some who worship a triad, or simply deny the only source of salvation all together? Mth 7; "Many will say to me in that day: ‘Lord, Lord, did we not prophesy in your name, and expel demons in your name, and perform many powerful works in your name?’ And then I will declare to them: ‘I never knew you! Get away from me, you workers of lawlessness!" It clearly isn't even enough to believe in Christ in order to be saved. 2Ti 3; "From among these arise men who slyly work their way into households and captivate weak women loaded down with sins, led by various desires, always learning and yet never able to come to an accurate knowledge of truth."

    Yes some who are now parts of false religion will join themselves to the truth and convert in the time of the end, but they will not be favored unless they recognize the accurate knowledge Jehovah requires for survival. That is very clear throughout every page of the Bible.

    So a good question indeed about where on the line of knowledge one resides.

    |_____________|

    This line however would have to represent "accurate knowledge" not all knowledge, because there is fact and there is fiction. With that in mind some fall within the line, others do not. That line is drawn by Jehovah. And Jesus made it very clear what that line was while here on earth throughout his whole ministry, including understanding that faith alone was not enough, and that accurate knowledge of him and his father was very important, just as he made clear to the pharisees on many occasions.

    Did the Jews at any time have all the knowledge of truth at any given moment, and were they not favored anyway when they walked that line of accurate knowledge set by Jehovah? And when they began to diverge or cross that line? Jehovah punished or took away their hope of surviving.

    Jehovah has not changed. His purposes have not changed. He still does things as he always has. Once you start getting away from history you start to come up with your own ideas as to how Jehovah will do things in the time of the end, and those ideas usually clash with how Jehovah has done things from day one.

    There is a people who have the truth as it pertains to the line drawn by Jehovah, and that is considered his Temple. They do not have all the knowledge of truth but, they have walked that line set by Jehovah. Some within however have crossed it, exactly as it was in the first century, and they will be punished for it. The prophecies of the past were for us today in order decipher future events, and those events are locked within their first fulfillment's.

    There is a reason the road is narrow and few go down it...
     
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    SingleCell

    SingleCell Experienced Member

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    You are into the "Maitreya" stuff? I'm surprised, aren't you a JW / Christian?

    Or are you saying that Maitreya will be the MOL / false teacher / false prophet?
     
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    SingleCell

    SingleCell Experienced Member

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    Yes, you were saying Maitreya could be the MOL :)

    Sorry!
     
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    SingleCell

    SingleCell Experienced Member

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    I completely agree actually :) Except rather than Jehovah's people being defined as ONLY Jehovah's Witnesses, I see it as 'true Christians', in other words, those who exercise faith and are acceptable to Jehovah through Jesus.

    So yes, Jehovah does have ONE group of people, who have been unfortunately divided by Satan's ploy to separate out into these denominations.

    See the 'churches' in Revelation for a peak into the dividing of Jehovah's people, and their various doctrinal / worldly / internal problems.

    But I think you are misapplying Malachi 3:6 (or one of the other similar scriptures) - my takeaway from "Jehovah not changing" or "no turning of the shadow" is about his personality and character - NOT how he interacts in the universe.

    If how he interacts with man, the universe, etc, 'does not change' then the universe would never have been created :)
     
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    Joshuastone7

    Joshuastone7 Administrator Staff Member

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    I completely agree that the understanding in the society is extremely flawed, "If your not with us your against us". Of course Christs brothers include others outside the inner circle of JW's. This is no different then the disciples of Jesus in the first century, though they were at that point Christian they were still members of the Jewish community however, I say Jesus taught us well it is not just enough to be a Jew, you had to understand the nature of Jehovah's relation to Jesus. This clearly excludes any other denomination as a group on this planet other the the WTS.

    How or if these letters will play a part in the end is debatable. Now, taking the further step to say that these churches are the different Christendom beliefs now is pure fantasy. There is no connection whatsoever to this theory, which simply relegates it to theory. There is simply no way Jehovah would except a faith that does not understand his nature, we've seen this over and over and over throughout his history with mankind. This is a fundamental understanding one must have in order to be favored by Jehovah.

    You also must keep in mind that there will be a time when there is no society, it would also be a theory that the churches would be those after the fall of the main one. Yet again this also would be a theory however, one thing is for sure, there can be no connection made between the churches in Rev and sects of Christendom today, nor is there any foundation of understanding this to even be a possibility.

    Let me give you an example, Mormons are considered a Christendom religion, yet they have the most grotesque understanding of spirituality there is, obviously they have no part of the True God.

    I was never trying to quote Malachi or anywhere else in scripture when I said he doesn't change, it was more an observation. Every time he does something it's always the same way. For example, let's take the flood, he used humans to build an ark by hand and flooded the world. This is the same theme as will occur in the time of the end.

    However, since you brought it up, separating how he acts in the universe from his character is futile. Not changing means not changing, you can't pick and choose what it means. All of the previous fufulfillments of prophecy are there to show you what will occur in the time of the end. He's not going to just all of a sudden in the time of the end do things different then how he did things in every major or minor event throughout all of history.

    My point is, people tend to go off on wild theories when it comes to prophecy. The flood, the Temples destruction in 70CE...Etc.., these all foreshadow the time of the end. There will be two human individuals who will go out into the world to announce Jehovah's coming destruction just like has always occurred. Jehovah's people will be punished and temple surrounded, carried off into captivity and then gathered back along with anyone that connects themselves to them or converts. Holy spirit will be poured out at the end of the 1260 days when Jesus is enthroned, then shortly after the disgusting thing is placed.

    The skinny of it, 2Th 2 can and must be speaking of the Temple of The God as only those who have accurate knowledge of the nature of Jehovah himself. This has been the way it has always been...
     
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    Utuna

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    It wasn't because they didn't have accurate knowledge. They had the accurate knowledge that fitted the needs of the nation back in those days and which was enough to enable them to identify whom Jesus really was. The problem was their lack of faith. The religious leaders knew that Jesus came from God but their faith was dead (and the nation as a whole was kicked out, hence their responsibility).

    The sheep know when the real shepherd calls them. Christ's brothers at first and the sincere Christians in general are "by nature" attracted by truth. The JWs, and more particularly the anointed ones within them, are the most likely to make up God's temple because, as said above, the JWs are the less wrong ones. Therefore, "by nature", the truth lovers are more likely to be among the JWs than among the Catholics or else. As always, statistical probabilities are more useful to spot patterns and tendencies than to be a surefire crystal ball.

    As a result, the temple talked about in 2 Thess. is more likely to be the anointed ones among the JWs but as Jehovah isn't stupid and as polar thinking isn't how His mind works, we mightn't discard the possibility that He sees beautiful things in people who are not JWs, like He did with Paul, for example...

    Accurate knowledge isn't an end in itself. As we all already know because of those who know the truth about the truth and who won't act in accordance with what they learned, we know that knowledge isn't the real issue. Personally, I prefer to deal with a Catholic who doesn't know much but who acts in a Christian way than with a JW who thinks that they are spiritual bigwigs but who treats others like dirt.

    True faith is everything. Jehovah provides spiritual knowledge and understanding whenever it's needed, either directly through his spirit or more often nowadays through some of his faithful servants (Acts 18:24-26). Many faithful servants of Jehovah of the past didn't have the understanding that we have, they didn't even had the Bible as we do but they had a spiritual sight and frame of mind

    But as I think that the MOL is also the Antichrist, a certain amount of time may pass before the temple mentioned in 2 Thess. is occupied by him and said temple may well be something else than what it is nowadays. Furthermore, I know that it's at variance with your chronology but God's temple must be destroyed, which means that, as a whole, they aren't so faithful and knowledgeable as we all wish they were...
     
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    Utuna

    Utuna Administrator

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    Yes, the members of the GC; the real GC, the one that will go out alive of the GT, and not the GC version GB, are also full-fledged members of Jehovah's people. You're talking about Jehovah's people here and not about the temple/Christ's brothers. You would have mentioned expressly the Temple, I would have disagreed, as you already know it given that you know my opinion in that regard. :)
     
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    Utuna

    Utuna Administrator

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    The GB don't know more the Bible than the churches of Christendom. (There are blatant errors in the biblical encyclopedias of Christendom but yet, one can't compare the huge amount of biblical knowledge and understanding recorded in those encyclopedias with ours, the Insight book.) They know it a bit better though. Their teaching, knowledge and understanding aren't so transcendent as to justify their boasting. The JWs have just gotten rid of many lies and erroneous teachings that pervade Christendom but unfortunately also added theirs. If you really think about it, the GB of today haven't made any significant headway at all in biblical understanding. They just come back and forth on details like the term generation or else but the most significant discoveries or rediscoveries were all made about 100 years ago. The GB of today just spiritually lives off what their predecessors retrieved, barring a few tiny flashes of light here and there.

    If they haven't made significant progress in the understanding and knowledge of the Bible, it must be because Jehovah still wants to keep some details in the dark until he decides otherwise, and as a consequence, such darkness of thoughts on the GB's part might not be totally their fault. BUT, I don't see either any reason to boast as much as they do.
     
  12. Hi Utuna:

    Who in your opinion is the "real" great crowd?

    frank
     
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    Joshuastone7

    Joshuastone7 Administrator Staff Member

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    Most important in your statements above is the fact that it was the nation as a whole we are talking about. The temple was not the high priests, it was not individuals within, it represented the entire nation, the physical representation of Jehovah's earthly organization.

    The temple in 2Th 2 cannot represent the anointed, for the fact that the constant feature is tied in with the temple being surrounded. Since the Temple is surrounded for 1260 days, and the constant feature being removed started this process, the temple must represent something bigger, it must represent the entire visible congregational structure of Jehovah's on the planet.

    You can't see with your naked eye who is anointed, therefore removing the constant feature and surrounding the temple would be relegated to nonsense. As I've said many times, the only thing we have to go on is the original fulfillments. The temple in 2Th 2 has to be the physical visible congregational representation of Jehovah's people on earth just as the temple was in 70CE. This is the only way everything fits together...

    I knew Paul would come up, I was just wondering who would...lol :p To be honest, the example of Paul is flawed. He already knew the correct nature of Jehovah, he just didn't have as much accurate knowledge as Christs brothers. It would be kin to an angel going to one of JW's and telling them there is a truth about the truth, then they would come and post here with us...

    Regardless, I still take the stand that unless one understands the nature of Jehovah there is no anointing. I think that is very clear in scripture, not sure why this would even be debated actually.

    We can make God out to love everyone in our minds, but the Jehovah of the bible demands exclusive worship in truth and faith. In proof I challenge anyone to show scriptures where Jehovah praised anyone that worshiped falsely or gods/god that wasn't inline with the nature of Jehovah himself.

    Again, the temple cannot be individuals, but must be as I said the visible construct. That's the way it always has been, and the only way it can be surrounded and destroyed including all members within, as well the chronology proves it.

    It's a bit like math. You can have the math mathematicians who have the numbers and the steps but, then you have the theorists who have diagrams and say wait, no, there must be another way to the numbers. Then the numbers are changed. In physics the theories always came before the math, and so the metaphor is the fact that they must all fit together. You cannot have one without the other.

    What you are searching for is the same thing Einstein had searched for, a theory of everything. A unified structure with a model that has no paradoxes, a final equation that is a few lines long.
     
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    Joshuastone7

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    It is not Jehovah's doing, it has nothing to do with him. The information has been there all along. The real reason the JW's don't have the full truth is because of the operation of error, 2Th 2 tells us exactly why; "But the lawless one’s presence is by the operation of Satan with every powerful work and lying signs and wonders and every unrighteous deception for those who are perishing, as a retribution because they did not accept the love of the truth in order that they might be saved."

    The truth that 1914 is in error was debated in the governing body in the 70's. They've had access to the truth for a very long time but they chose to ignore it because of the influence Satan has within the congregation. This is the reason why the WTS will go down. Jehovah has sent the truth to them, they just have chosen to ignore it...
     
  15. Hi Joshua:

    What exactly is the "nature" of Jehovah and Jesus that people need to know before they can be known by both? If Jehovah's Witnesses totally misunderstand the 1914 issue, and who the Great Crowd is, what makes you believe they would correctly understand the nature of Jehovah and Jesus?

    frank
     
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    Joshuastone7

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    That Jehovah had no beginning
    and that Jesus had.
     
  17. Hi Joshua:

    I don't think that Jehovah's Witnesses have a monopoly on that understanding. I am not a JW and I believe that Jehovah does not have a beginning and that Jesus surely does.

    frank
     
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    Joshuastone7

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    You are mistaking the discussion. I'm not sure if you are reading every comment but, the discussion is the temple in 2Th 2. As a physical organizational arrangement on earth representing the truth of the nature of Jehovah as a group there is only one.

    Were there not others in the world who understood the nature of Jehovah other then those in the organizational structure of the Jews? Of course there was.

    The discussion isn't about individualism as I mentioned in my last few posts, the understanding of the temple and what makes Jehovah's people is to understand the way things have always been. The temple was the physical representation of Jehovah's organizational arrangement on earth, not individuals within or without, including those who lived anywhere outside Jerusalem and may have even been any other race that believed in the true God Jehovah.

    I encourage you to reread my lasts few posts.
     
  19. Hi Joshua:

    Most of the time I do understand your posts, I just don't always agree with the substance of them. Every once in a while I don't get what you are saying.

    "The temple was the physical representation of Jehovah's organizational arrangement on earth, not individuals within or without".

    This is a quote from your last comment where I think you were trying to convince me that the "temple" mentioned in 2 Thess. 2 was the like physical temple in Jerusalem made of gigantic physical stones. Right now, the grounds where the old Temple sat are not even owned by the Jews. Also, how long will it take to build such a magnificent building for Jehovah to inhabit? Too bad the Apostle Paul is not still alive in the flesh today, cause it appears to me that he didn't know what this temple was either.

    Do you not know that you yourselves are God’s temple+ and that the spirit of God dwells in you?+ 17 If anyone destroys the temple of God, God will destroy him; for the temple of God is holy, and you are that temple.+ 1 Cor. 3: 16,17

    Quite making things difficult for yourself and everybody else, Joshua.

    frank
     
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    Joshuastone7

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    The temple wasn't about the building or a location, it was about what it represented. Do you think the loss was the building? The temple in the time of the end is the same thing, a representation or organization containing the basic understanding of the nature of God. It's the WTS itself that is the temple in 2Th 2. The magazine and organization is the constant feature mirroring the sacrifice to the Romans that were halted in 66CE. The Watchtowers purpose is to bring knowledge of the kingdom to the world.

    Obviously once the WTS no longer exists this will have an impact on those who were within.

    Can I say it any me clear?
     

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