Even though I discovered the chronology of Dan 9 and the 70 weeks during my work into the weeks, it has been brought to my attention that in fact this is the very same teaching the Watchtower upholds. (Disclosure: or I might have used the WTS articles as part of my studies at that time, I can't remember currently the specifics.) WTS Article; "It appears, then, that the bringing of Cornelius into the Christian congregation took place about the autumn of 36 C.E., which would be the end of the 70th “week,†490 years from 455 B.C.E." Daniel determined the beginning of the weeks, and as well we know when Daniel expected Christ to appear, we also know when he was cut off, it's just the next step to recognize that Cornelius's baptism was the end of that week because that's what the whole prophecy is about. The covenant that was in place for the "many" (Israel) was the covenant for a Massiah. That 70th week began with Jesus baptism, at the half he was cut off and then 3.5 years later the Gentiles were brought into the covenant, which means that's when the covenant to the "many" (Israel) ended as a people specific to Jehovah. That is the moment all of mankind who excepts the truth became Israel, and the moment physical Israel no longer had Jehovah's favor.
I tend to agree with you. I haven't watched the video yet and will tomorrow as it's getting late here. However, Satan DID use a star to lead the magus till Jesus as a baby, which Herod later used to want him dead... Satan might well have a few things of his own making waiting in the back burner for when he feels that there's real trouble ahead. Time will tell...
Hi all: The 69 weeks ended at Jesus baptism in Tishri 29CE. The first half of the 70th week went to Jesus sacrifice in Nisan 33CE and the end of the 70th week was on Tishri 14, 36 CE at the baptism of Cornelius. Frank
Where it becomes unclear I think is the seeming reference to the KotN / 8th king. I don't know, your explanation, Frank's and the WT's makes the most sense, since the disconnected last week seems odd... but I need to study / pray / ponder it a bit more.
I agree that if we only take the astronomical picture of 23rd of september 2017 as basis for our counting of 1260 days we could get it wrong. I would personally want to have 2 or 3 additional evidences. So I will be looking for a couple of other events. If 23rd of september 2017 is the date, then the 2 witnesses should start their ministry on that day and also the one world government should begin to rule and start to impose the mark of the beast on people. Also one of the heads of the beast should before that get a deathstrike, but also manage to heal, and get peoples admiration. So if all that will happen around 23 rd of September 2017, then this astronomical picture would really be a sign from God to start counting the 1260 etc days. But the 2300 days i understand end when the 1335 days ends, I could be wrong. That would in its turn put the beginning of the 2300 to next month this year. see you tomorrow, here it is 11:00 in the night. I am almost falling as I write.
Hi Joshua: Just because Jehovah does not approve of astrology, that does not mean that he doesn't use the stars and constellations in his prophecy or his teaching of mankind. That is Astronomy, which is OK by him, I think. To show that this is not "personal opinion" I quote the following scriptures... For there will be great distress on the land and wrath against this people. 24 And they will fall by the edge of the sword and be led captive into all the nations;+ and Jerusalem will be trampled on by the nations* until the appointed times of the nations* are fulfilled.+ 25 “Also, there will be signs in the sun and moon and stars,+ and on the earth anguish of nations not knowing the way out because of the roaring of the sea and its agitation. Luke 21: 23-25 “Immediately after the tribulation of those days, the sun will be darkened,+ and the moon will not give its light, and the stars will fall from heaven, and the powers of the heavens will be shaken.+ 30 Then the sign of the Son of man will appear in heaven, and all the tribes of the earth will beat themselves in grief,+ and they will see the Son of man+ coming on the clouds of heaven with power and great glory. Matthew 24: 29,30 The situation described in Luke could be an eclipse, or it could be similar to the situation that occurred at Jesus impalement/crucifixion when they had darkness for three hours from mid day till the ninth hour. That was not an eclipse but it is one of the most heavily covered historical events of early Christian times with many historians mentioning it and lending veracity to the story even for those without faith. I think that video is bunk though, just like you, but for different reasons (some the same), but not just because he talks about a certain astronomical positioning of the stars. I think the magi from the east that came to see Jesus were not astrologers, but astronomers and possible the descendants of Abraham through Ketorah whom he sent "with gifts" to the east at the time of his death. We don't know what those gifts were, perhaps some were a knowledge of the positioning of the stars near the time of the Messiah's birth. Besides the angels, they were the only ones who got the birth of the Messiah correctly, and they did not give Herod any advantage at all. They must have known something, unless you think they were there just by coincidence. I do not. Frank He spreads out the heavens by himself,+ And he treads upon the high waves of the sea.+ 9 He made the Ash,* the Ke′sil,* and the Ki′mah constellations,*+ And the constellations of the southern sky;* Job 9: 8,9
Nuclear war (even in a small scale) would put ash in the atmosphere that would block out the sun and cause the moon to appear red.
Hi Joshua: That could possibly satisfy the sun and the moon going dark, but I doubt it. It sounds much more like celestial phenomenon to me, but your suggestion of nuclear war is tenable. But what about the signs in sun and moon and stars and "the sign of the sun of man in heaven"? These seem to me to be clearly astronomical signs, so that's why I think the sun and the moon going dark are also. Nuclear war did not explain the sun and the moon going dark when Jesus was sacrificed, so I don't think it does now either. frank
In chronology the moment of the signs is right before Jesus comes in the clouds and Armageddon begins. It's the very last thing before the first day of the new world. These signs are to recognize the destruction coming, not the end beginning. The beginning of the end will have started more then 6 years before.
Interesting that the WTorg has tried to debunk the idea that the zodiac is not something Jehovah God named. But they admit that they can not say for sure. Here is what WT library says: The Aramaic Targum equates Mazzaroth with the maz·za·lohth′ of 2 Kings 23:5, “constellations of the zodiac,†or “twelve signs, or, constellations.†(NW; KJ margin) Some believe that the word is derived from a root meaning “engird†and that Mazzaroth refers to the zodiacal circle. However, at Job 38:32 a singular pronoun is used in Hebrew in the expression “in its appointed time,†whereas the reference in 2 Kings 23:5 is in the plural. Hence, Mazzaroth appears to refer to a particular constellation rather than to the entire zodiacal circle, but no positive identification is possible at present.- WT org Back to my arguments : But when we take in account the scriptures (Psalm 147:4; Isaiah 40:26) that tell that Jehovah has given names to all the stars, it sounds reasonable that Jehovah have given names to groups of stars too, to constellations. In Jobs book Jehovah speaks about 3 constellations. And how could the psalmist know that God have given names to all the stars? I could guess it was because he had knowledge of the names of many stars or constellations. I can imagin that people in ancient times, including the psalmist did often stare at the sky in evenings, because they were not busy as people today with internet or television. Plus then it was easier to see the sky. Because now it is hard to see stars because we usually live in cities that light up the sky.
I have a theory about why sun moon and stars could go dark if the presence of god was near its quite possible that the energy that we can not see from god is so powerful that it would push and bend visable light away from earth.. the sun and stars still give off visible light but if something faster than light was to eminate it would simply deflect the slower light beams. so these scientific people that are using great telescopes to look for heaven and god. their looking for the wrong thing you can't see god or detect his energy with instruments made to measure light but if they was looking for a pattern were visible light was distorted in a path they might actually see were god was passing by.
Thanks Josh ! I also kept reading down the thread and found SingleCell's post about it. I haven't read in detail the book of Daniel since we were on Robert's forum. I didn't remember that one. Well, for me, it doesn't make sense that the week starts with Jesus' baptism whereas a covenant is mentioned (the NC was validated at Jesus' death) and ends up with Cornelius being baptized. The OC was already abolished in 36 CE. It must mean something else but I may be mistaken since I don't have all the details in mind. If all the weeks are connected, there is a discrepancy since the Messiah must die at the end of the 69 weeks (9:26) and you say that he's baptized at the start of the 70th week and dies at the half of that same week. First off, it doesn't make sense to me.
I agree with you. I don't remember all the details either and I've contradicted enough people lately on other threads. As a consequence, I'll posit that they're right.
The 70th weeks covenant is only for the appearance of the Messiah, not for a kingdom, and the covenant for the Messiah to the "many" (many=Israel) was only to the physical nation of the Jews.
Dan 9:25 "You should know and understand that from the issuing of the word to restore and to rebuild Jerusalem until Mes·si′ah the Leader, there will be 7 weeks, also 62 weeks." This is the covenant fulfilled. the end of the 69th week marked the appearance of the Messiah. Dan 9:27 “And he will keep the covenant in force for the many for one week; and at the half of the week, he will cause sacrifice and gift offering to cease." And he was cut off at the half of the week. Subsequently that covenant ceased only to the Jews when Cornelius was baptized, ending that 70th week.
This will also be the case in the time of the end. After the WTS goes down, and during the 42 months there will be a moment the call to rebuild Jerusalem will be made, and that will be 69 weeks before Jesus is enthroned and the holy spirit poured out. That will start the 70th week, and at the half of that week the two witnesses are killed, then 3.5 days later they are raised and the kingdom will be preached in all the inhabited earth in a single moment, allowing all of mankind to enter the covenant promise of the kingdom.
Hi Joshua: Your chart is always interesting but answer me this question after reading the following scripture and try to discern where your chart may be off. “Also, there will be signs in the sun and moon and stars,+ and on the earth anguish of nations not knowing the way out because of the roaring of the sea and its agitation. 26 People will become faint out of fear and expectation of the things coming upon the inhabited earth, for the powers of the heavens will be shaken. 27 And then they will see the Son of man+ coming in a cloud with power and great glory.+ 28 But as these things start to occur, stand up straight and lift up your heads, because your deliverance is getting near.†Luke 21 You have the sign in the "sun and moon and start" after Armageddon and the establishment of the Kingdom. This scripture does not sound like your chart. First off, after Armageddon all the people who will be faint out of fear and causing disturbance will be gone and therefore will not be able to "be in anguish" for "not knowing the way out". Also, how will the powers of the heavens be shaken? Is this talking about the physical heavens or symbolic or both? How can this happen after Armageddon. It just doesn't seem to fit to me. Help me out to see how it does fit your chart. My mistake, I originally looked at the position of the box and did not percieve the arrow properly. Now I see better where you have this positioned. Sorry! frank