Is The Conclusion Two 3.5 Year Periods?

Discussion in 'Bible Prophecy' started by SingleCell, Jul 12, 2016.

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    SingleCell

    SingleCell Experienced Member

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    Jesus' ministry lasted for 3.5 years; the focus of his ministry was on the people of God, finding those Jews who "had eyes to see and ears to hear", and not the wider world.

    Jesus extracted ministers from Israel for giving a witness to the world. Jesus was the faithful slave who gave food at the proper time.


    The task of telling Gentiles the truth fell primarily on Paul's shoulders.

    It took 3.x years for Paul to be cleansed in the desert before he began his ministry to the gentiles.

    [I wouldn't be surprised if that was actually 3.5 years between the stoning of Stephen and Paul emerging from the desert; actually, I would be surprised if it WEREN'T]

    ---------------------------------

    In Revelation 12, the remaining seed is protected by the 'earth' for 3.5 years; this is when the faithful slave feeds the remnant.

    "where she is to be fed for a time and times and half a time away from the face of the serpent"

    Out of that feeding program emerges a refined group of witnesses.

    Humble, adorned in sackcloth, and "will never again" rely on mere princes of men.

    In Revelation 13, the wild beast and it's cohorts are permitted to trample the nations, and directly confront the remaining seed, for 3.5 years (42 months).

    Of course, this correlates with Daniel 7, where the same players, albeit under different symbolic language, are permitted to trample God's holy ones for 3.5 years.

    TWO 3.5 year periods:


    - the cleansing ministry of the faithful slave, the seed under protection of the earth. This connects us with Jesus' 3.5 ministry to extract his sheep from Israel. At the same time, it also parallels Paul's 3.x year time in the desert, where his false notions from Judaism were washed away, preparing him to confront the nations.

    - the ministry to the nations of judgment and repentance. The seed is unprotected and trampled by the Wild Beast, seemingly left-in-the-lurch in the desert. This period lasts for 42 months, or 3.5 years, and is DISTINCT from Revelation 12's 3.5 year period (time, times, and half a time)

    These are mutually exclusive periods; one where the remnant is fed and protected, and another where the remnant is trampled and destroyed.

    This brings us to Daniel 9.

    There are 70 weeks given to "to bring in everlasting righteousness"; the weeks are broken into three sections.

    - 7 weeks
    - 62 weeks
    - 1 week

    Given the overwhelming sub-textual focus of the prophetic schema is the conclusion, whereby a 3.5 year period is given to that final global system to trample God's people, it seems reasonable, if not preferred, to conclude that the final week in Daniel 9 is a disconnect from those 7 and 62 weeks.

    ESPECIALLY against what is outlined above regarding the two distinct 3.5 year periods in Revelation 12 and 13. Strongly suggesting that the last prophecy in Daniel 9 is in regards to a cleansing period of God's people, and then the trampling and final witness. 1 week in total.

    Coincidence? ;)

    Or have we made an error ascribing the final week to 1C?

    Either way, there IS a final week of years we can call the conclusion.

    - cleansing and feeding (3.5 years - let's call this the judgment of God's house)
    - trampling and judgment (3.5 years - let's call this the abomination of desolation)

    "And he will keep the covenant in force for the many for one week; and at the half of the week, he will cause sacrifice and gift offering to cease. “And on the wing of disgusting things there will be the one causing desolation; and until an extermination, what was decided on will be poured out also on the one lying desolate.”


    - Daniel 9:27
     
    Last edited: Jul 12, 2016
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    Frank Conger

    Frank Conger Guest

    Will not last 3.5 or 7 years. Will last 450 days. A time and a season-----360 days (time) plus 90 days (a season). Dan 7
     
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    SingleCell

    SingleCell Experienced Member

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    That still doesn't account for the two disparate time periods :)

    The 'earth' protecting the remnant for one of the 'periods'.

    The 'wild beast' trampling the holy ones for one of the 'periods'.
     
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    Joshuastone7

    Joshuastone7 Administrator Staff Member

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    Okay, let's start with what exactly is trampled for the 42 months, It's the courtyard not the temple as we read at Rev 11:1,2;

    "“Get up and measure the temple sanctuary of God and the altar and those worshipping in it. But as for the courtyard that is outside the temple sanctuary, leave it out and do not measure it, because it has been given to the nations, and they will trample the holy city underfoot for 42 months."

    The trampling occurs to those outside the temple in the courtyard, not to those actually worshipping in truth in the temple. (Keep that in mind as I continue)

    Now the sacrifices were conducted in the courtyard, therefore once the courtyard has begun to be trampled ends the daily sacrifices as seen in Dan 12:11;

    "And from the time that the constant feature has been removed and the disgusting thing that causes desolation has been put in place, there will be 1,290 days."

    Now that also gives us the moment the temple is attacked. It will be 1290 days after the courtyard had begun to be trampled.

    Then we read happy is the one who reaches the 1335th day at Dan 12:12;

    "“Happy is the one who keeps in expectation and who arrives at the 1,335 days!"

    That means the world will only survive another 45 days after the temple is attacked.

    The holy place, (here on earth/not Most Holy) will be brought into it's right condition at the end of the 2300 days, which is the same moment of the 1335th day because everyone reaching that day will be happy. So therefore the end won't be a full 7 years because Jehovah will cut those days short as seen at Mth 24:22;

    "In fact, unless those days were cut short, no flesh would be saved; but on account of the chosen ones those days will be cut short."

    -----------------------------------

    Now is there any reason to believe there are two separate 3.5 time periods? One would first consider all options, that both they are the same time period, are not, or have absolutely nothing to do with each other.

    History is a good example, these 1260 days have been fulfilled twice before. Once in the Maccabees revolt and the other from 66-70CE. In each instance the daily sacrifice was removed, and then 3.5 years later the temple was attacked/abomination set up. In 66 the followers of Jesus would have recognized the sacrifices ceased for the Emperor and Roman people that began the revolt as the sign to leave the city, and they would have fulfilled all those things written in Mth 24....etc... (That applied to their time)

    What if both there is Judgement on the ungodly men who claim to follow Jehovah (in the courtyard) and a cleansing of those who actually do at the same time? (in the temple)

    First trumpet refines true followers by fire;

    Rev 8:7 "The first one blew his trumpet. And there was hail and fire mingled with blood, and it was hurled to the earth; and a third of the earth was burned up, and a third of the trees were burned up, and all the green vegetation was burned up."

    First bowl falls on those men who claim to serve God but are unfaithful;

    Rev 16:2 “And the first one went off and poured out his bowl into the earth. And a hurtful and malignant ulcer came to be upon the men that had the mark of the wild beast and that were worshiping its image.”

    The trumpets and bowls occur at the same moments, and this continues with the next three trumpets and bowls, one showing a refining by fire for one group and the destruction of the other all at the same time.

    -----------------------------------------

    Now let's look at the 70 weeks fulfillment in Jesus. The 69th week ended the moment he was baptized, (even the Jewish leaders knew when to look for the Messiah) and the half of that week was his death, while the end of the 70th week occurred the moment Cornelius was baptized, fulfilling Peters vision of the sheet with the unclean animals becoming clean when the Gentile was folded into the covenant, and the moment Israel became all of mankind who worships in truth.

    Now is there anything there to say the 3.5 years of trampling or feeding have separate time periods? I can't see a precedence for that. In fact in the time of the end I believe these 70 weeks will actually be literal weeks, from the moment the call to rebuild Jerusalem, till Jesus is enthroned to 3.5 days later when the Two Witnesses are killed, to 3 days later they are raised and a call to all the earth by the angel in Rev 14:6 of everlasting good news.

    -------------------------------------------

    So let me give you my impression. The courtyard is trampled the moment the constant feature/WTS is removed, and it's at that point they go into captivity to Babylon metaphorically, because Babylon will have a part in that action. Those who worship Jehovah will be refined by fire and those who are fake will fall away, meaning only a third survive. The "women" who is fed, not the daily sacrifices. It's the organization that has failed, not the true brothers within. This is why there are two seeming occurrences during these 1260 days, because it will effect two different ways, but Christs bride will still be fed by those like us...

    It is these that are fed, because sense they are the women of Rev 12 it is that women that is fed by the new call to rebuild Jerusalem 69 weeks before Jesus is enthroned.

    If there is no absolute proof that these 120 days/42 months are separate time periods we should first determine how they could be the same time period, and it all appears in the chronology to fall in place perfectly, they being the same moment for the cleansing and Judgement.

    IMO of course...

    {2300 Starts} Watchtower News Reports: Sept 10th, 2018; Rosh Hashanah
    |
    {965 Days Pass}
    |
    {1260, 1290, 1335 Starts} Watchtower Goes Down: May 2nd, 2021
    |
    {777 Days Pass}
    |
    {1742nd Day} Call to Rebuild Jerusalem: June 17th, 2023
    |
    {108 Days Pass}
    |
    {1850th Day} Anglo-America Collapses: Sept 29th-6th, 2023; Sukkot
    |

    {375 Days Pass}
    |
    {1260 Ends} Jesus Enthroned: Oct 12th, 2024; Yom Kippur
    |
    {30 Days Pass}
    |
    {1290 Ends} Disgusting Thing Placed: Nov 11th, 2024
    |
    {45 Days Pass}
    |
    {2300th, 1335th Day} New World: Dec 26th, 2024; Hanukkah
     
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    SingleCell

    SingleCell Experienced Member

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    I'll say the same thing as I said to Frank :)

    That's fine, but it doesn't address the topic!

    Revelation 12 contains a separate, necessarily distinct, 3.5 year period (or whatever)

    During this time, a "feeding program" takes place for a hidden remnant of the woman.

    THEN,
    in Revelation 13, we get to the trampling 42 month period. (Daniel 7 as well)

    [responding to your two periods skepticism]

    Ultimately, it calls into question (by logical deduction) where the Daniel 9 "final week" falls in relation with the 62 and 7 week periods.

    By logical deduction, I mean that it's reasonable to place that final week as Revelation 12 -> Revelation 13, which (not?) coincidentally is a "1 week of years" (7) period :)
     
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    Joshuastone7

    Joshuastone7 Administrator Staff Member

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    I have always believed there is no reason to consider the 70th week is separate from the 69, there is nothing to say it is, and in fact the first fulfillment was one week after the other with no gaps in between. It is my belief the idea of separating them would be a personal one rather then precedence in scripture.

    Yes, there is a distinct "reaction" the 1260 days will have on the Women as they learn the real truth about 1914, but that does not change the fact that the judgement on the current organization will be at the same time. 1260 must be 1260 without absolute proof they are separate.

    Besides, the covenant held in place for the many in the 70th week was Jehovah fulfilling his promise for a Messiah to Israel for exactly 7 years from the moment Jesus was baptized until Cornelius was baptized and Peters vision of the sheet fulfilled. This should be it's future fulfillment as well, when Jehovah's promise for our King is fulfilled in Christ Jesus when he takes the throne, and then when that 70th week ends the call to all the earth of the good news.

    The courtyard is trampled 42 months, and this has nothing to do with the temple or the women, (Gen 11:1,2) at the same time the courtyard is surrounded, Gods people flee into the mountains, just like in 66CE. History of it's previous fulfillment's tell us it's future. In 66CE the constant feature was removed, and Christs brothers fled into the wilderness to be fed at the same time away from the face of Rome. Then after the 3.5 years the temple was attacked.
     
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    Joshuastone7

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    Besides, the entire time period of the end is 2300 days long, the angel tells us that;

    Dan 8:13,14 "How long will the vision of the constant feature and of the transgression causing desolation continue, to make both the holy place and the army things to trample on?” So he said to me: “Until 2,300 evenings and mornings; and the holy place will certainly be restored to its right condition.”
     
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    SingleCell

    SingleCell Experienced Member

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    Is that true though?

    "how long will the vision of the constant feature and of the transgression causing desolation continue"

    This is the events in Revelation 13; some aspect of the 'trampling'; it's also the second half-week of Daniel 9's final week, when the "desolation" is placed, and "gift and sacrifice" are halted.

    BEFORE the trampling, before the constant feature is removed, there is a "half week" where the remnant are swallowed up by the earth AWAY from the serpent. (Revelation 12 last section)

    THEN -> Revelation 13 -> serpent directly confronts and tramples the remnant which was 'hidden' for the first half-week.

    Two necessarily distinct half-weeks.

    "necessarily" because what happens during those 3.5 years are mutually exclusive; you can't be "hidden and fed" and "trampled" at the same time.

    --------------------

    So, regardless of any minor details we can hash out, there are two distinct 3.5 periods in Revelation 12 and 13, where distinct and mutually exclusive events occur.
     
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    Frank Conger

    Frank Conger Guest

    Those are all accounts given to prophecy the fall of the Watchtower due to their fornication with the U.N.. They have nothing to do with the final days. But don't listen to me, I'm a delusional one. The woman in those scriptures are the remnant of the Bride in the Watchtower. But that will make no sense to you so I will not go into any details. Sorry for butting in on your discussion, please forgive me.
     
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    Joshuastone7

    Joshuastone7 Administrator Staff Member

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    I believe what your missing is there are simply more then one event that occurs during these 3.5 years. Think about it, the temple isn't touched during the time the courtyard is trampled for 1260 days, right???? (Rev 11:1,2) Therefore the disgusting thing isn't set up during that time period, and in fact we know there are 1290 days between those two events, right? (Dan 12:12)

    Therefore who is to say that once the courtyard is trampled that the actual temple isn't being fed at that time? We know it's only the courtyard in Rev 11 that is trampled for the 42 months it mentions, and we know the Women in Rev 12 represents Christs bride, who is to say that once the organization/courtyard goes down that the true bride of Christ isn't hidden and fed at that time?
     
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    Joshuastone7

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    Let's start here:

    Who'd you not agree the 2300 days end the same moment as the 1335th day?

    Dan 8:13,14 "“Until 2,300 evenings and mornings; and the holy place will certainly be restored to its right condition.”

    Dan 12:12 "Happy is the one who keeps in expectation and who arrives at the 1,335 days!"
     
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    SingleCell

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    Nobody here is a die-hard Watchtower person ... I'm not even sure where you get that notion ;)

    The reason some of us espouse a Watchtower framework is because of history, logic and a survey of the "Christian world".

    Could be, and probably is, wrong. It doesn't matter; but gives context to understand the principles at work.

    (e.g. <some group> will be trampled by the nation states, they are Christians, some group be swallowed by the earth and refined, etc)

    Massive distraction from the topic at hand brother :)

     
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    SingleCell

    SingleCell Experienced Member

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    Agreed.

    2300 evenings and mornings begin when the abomination of desolation is placed, constant feature removed and sanctuary thrown down.

    A different topic than the pre-abomination half-week in question :)

    - these 2300 evenings and mornings are the trampling
    - before the trampling initiates, there are 1260 days of feeding and hiding from the serpent; as Revelation symbolically describes it as the holy ones being swallowed by the earth to avoid the water discharge from the serpent.
     
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    Joshuastone7

    Joshuastone7 Administrator Staff Member

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    Wait wait.... You agreed, but didn't catch me I believe.

    What I was saying do you believe the 2300th day ends the same day as the 1335th day ends? Therefore the 1335th day is the first day of the new world just as the 2300th day is. Both end on a very happy day right?
     
    Last edited: Jul 12, 2016
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    SingleCell

    SingleCell Experienced Member

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    No I read you :)

    Constant feature removed -> 1290 days -> 45 days of ultra-tribulation -> new world

    I'm going backwards.

    1260 days hidden (Rev 12 earth swallowing, faithful slave, first half of last week) <- constant feature removed -> 1290 days
     
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    Joshuastone7

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    So what I'm trying to do is just start somewhere....

    Now if you see the 2300th day and the 1335th day end on the same day, then they don't begin on the same day right? They begin 2300-1335=965 days apart.

    Therefore if we know the 1335th day is 45 days after the 1290 end, and the 1290 days end 30 days after the time, times and half a time in Dan 12 (or 1260 days) then we can figure that the 1260 days begin the same day as the 1290, and 1335 days.

    Now if you factor in that the constant feature is not removed the same time as the disgusting thing being placed, but instead understand there are 1290 days between the constant feature being removed and the disgusting thing being placed then we see the disgusting thing is placed 30 days after the 1260 days end, correct?
     
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    SingleCell

    SingleCell Experienced Member

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    Keep it simple, post the scriptures, and summarize where you're getting this from :)

    Then let's look at the starting point in relation to Rev 12 and Rev 13; maybe we can bring Matthew 24 in as well.
     
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    Joshuastone7

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    Dan 12:11 "“And from the time that the constant feature has been removed and the disgusting thing that causes desolation has been put in place, there will be 1,290 days."

    People read this scripture wrong, most read it and believe that it says the constant feature is removed and the disgusting thing placed at the same time, but then that doesn't allow for explanation of what the 1290 days are, let alone it doesn't read right that way. It reads correctly understanding there are 1290 days in between those two events. As well history shows us that it's previous fulfillment's were the constant feature being removed then 1290 days later the disgusting thing placed. This is the way it was in 66-70CE.

    In fact many translations clarify it in this way;

    Daniel 12:11 (CEB) | In Context| Whole Chapter

    "There will be one thousand two hundred ninety days from the time the daily sacrifice is stopped to the setting up of the desolating monstrosity."

    Daniel 12:11 (CEV) | In Context| Whole Chapter

    "There will be one thousand two hundred ninety days from the time that the daily sacrifices are stopped, until someone sets up the Horrible Thing that causes destruction."

    Daniel 12:11 (ERV) | In Context | Whole Chapter

    "The daily sacrifice will be stopped. There will be 1290 days from that time until the time that the terrible thing that destroys is set up."

    Daniel 12:11 (EXB) | In Context | Whole Chapter

    "The daily [regular] sacrifice [8:12] will be stopped [turned away]. Then, after 1,290 days from that time, a blasphemous object that brings destruction [ the abomination of desolation; 11:31] will be set up."

    Daniel 12:11 (NCV) | In Context | Whole Chapter

    "The daily sacrifice will be stopped. Then, after 1,290 days from that time, a blasphemous object that brings destruction will be set up."
     
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    Joshuastone7

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    This is why Rev 11:1,2 says it's the courtyard thats trampled, not the temple. The courtyard contains the constant feature, and the disgusting thing will not be placed till 30 days after those 1260 days end.

    Rev 11 says it's only the courtyard that is trampled, and the temple is left alone.

    "Get up and measure the temple sanctuary of God and the altar and those worshipping in it. But as for the courtyard that is outside the temple sanctuary, leave it out and do not measure it, because it has been given to the nations, and they will trample the holy city underfoot for 42 months."
     
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    Joshuastone7

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    With me so far?
     

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