"Jehovah's Witnesses deny the Diety of Christ"

Discussion in 'General Discussions' started by francis son of charles, Apr 21, 2014.

  1. Hi All:

    This is the title to an article written by Robert King, whose writings I like but don't always completely agree with. Here is the link... http://e-watchman.com/jehovahs-witnesses-deny-the-deity-of-christ/#comment-20722

    Here is my reply for those that care what I think.

    The real answer to this situation is that you are both partially correct and partially incorrect. Jesus, although not being Almighty God is indeed a Mighty God (Isaiah 9:6) since his resurrection to heaven and the Bible makes a clear distinction. Jesus is not the same “person†as his Father, which by simple logic negates the whole idea of using the phrases “Father†and “Sonâ€. You cannot be the Father of yourself in the context of what Father means. You could become Father to a clone of yourself, but I think we can all agree that clones are not equal to the original just very good copies.

    I will try to use simple logic and the Bible to show that Jesus, although only equal to Adam while Jesus was here on the earth as a man (not a God/Man) he did “become†the only begotten God (John 1) in the sense that he is or was the first of Jehovah’s creation (being begotten) that has been perfected to the point of “becoming†a God.

    The Bible makes it clear that Jesus was “perfected†or “made perfect†by the things that he suffered while here on earth and especially his time upon the Torture Stake or Cross in Hebrews 11…

    “For it was fitting that the one for whom and through whom all things exist, in bringing many sons to glory, + should make the Chief Agent of their salvation+ perfect through sufferingsâ€.+ Hebrews 11:2

    If Jesus was already God while on earth he would already have been “perfect†and would not need perfecting. But what qualities did Jesus lack that needed “perfecting†you many ask? The Bible very clearly throughout its pages, especially the Christian Scriptures emphasizes the need for the quality of Love. In order to be in Union with the Father, Jesus and all Christians for that matter must excel in cultivating the quality of Love…

    “I make request, not concerning these only, but also concerning those putting faith in me through their word, 21 so that they may all be one,+ just as you, Father, are in union with me and I am in union with you,+ that they also may be in union with us, so that the world may believe that you sent me.†John 17:20,21 and…

    “Whoever does not love has not come to know God, because God is loveâ€. 1 John 4:8

    The word “is†in this scripture is the same as equal, so you could by the transitive principle also say because love is God. In 1 Corinthians Paul has a long discussion on the quality of love. I know you have read this many times, but read it again. Verse 13 reveals just how important the quality of love is when it says “Now, however, these three remain: faith, hope, love; but the greatest of these is loveâ€. 1 Corinthians 13:13

    We all know how important Faith is to a Christian, and where would we be without hope, but it is Love that we should mostly be striving to cultivate, and no doubt that was Jesus thinking when he was “perfecting†himself by the things that he suffered. Jesus indeed cultivated the quality of Love to perfection to the point that he could prophetically say about himself “No one has love greater than this, that someone should surrender his life* in behalf of his friends.+ John 15:13

    This statement is essentially saying that "Jesus is Love".

    So, Jesus, although not being God and not being perfect when he came to the earth as a man was indeed perfected when he left. The qualities that he perfected were many, but foremost of them was that he was perfect in Love. Now remember the transitive equation based on 1 John 4:8 that if God is Love then Love is God. When you reach the point where you have perfected the quality of Love then you are Love and if you are Love, you are God and really for the first time a true member of Jehovah God’s progeny. In this Jesus is the first of many brothers.

    “We know that God makes all his works cooperate together for the good of those who love God, those who are the ones called according to his purpose;+ 29 because those whom he gave his first recognition he also foreordained to be patterned after the image of his Son,+ so that he might be the firstborn+ among many brothersâ€. Romans 8:28,29

    So, Christendom makes Jesus equal to God which violates simple logic and so many scriptures in the Bible, but at the same time, in an effort to not be anything like that, the Watchtower and Jehovah’s Witnesses have sold Jesus short. He is God, and a very Mighty God indeed since his resurrection, but he is not Almighty God, for that distinction belongs only to Jehovah. We can and should worship Jesus, we just need to be careful that we give him only what belongs to him and not to his Father.

    For this very reason, God exalted him to a superior position+ and kindly gave him the name that is above every other name,+ 10 so that in the name of Jesus every knee should bend—of those in heaven and those on earth and those under the ground+— 11 and every tongue should openly acknowledge that Jesus Christ is Lord+ to the glory of God the Father. Philippians 2:9-11

    Some would argue that we are to show obeisance to Jesus and not worship. What does the word mean? o•bei•sance- deferential respect, synonyms are respect, homage, worship, adoration, reverence, veneration, honor, submission, deference.

    1 Samuel 15:22 puts it very clearly…â€Samuel then said: “Does Jehovah take as much pleasure in burnt offerings and sacrifices+ as in obeying the voice of Jehovah? Look! To obey is better than a sacrifice,+ and to pay attention than the fat+ of rams;â€

    So worship or obeisance essentially means to obey and this is backed up by Jesus words at John 15:10…

    “If you observe my commandments, you will remain in my love, just as I have observed the commandments of the Father and remain in his loveâ€. So, we show our love and devotion to Jesus the same way (not in the same amount) as we show our love and devotion to his Father.

    In short, Jesus is the only begotten God that is worthy of our worship as long as that worship does not stray into what belongs to his Father. That is the answer to the question. Perhaps not so simple but hopefully effective.

    Frank
     
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    jehovahisgod

    jehovahisgod Experienced Member

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    Jesus is not Jehovah he is Jehovah's son but let's not minimize how powerful he is. he was given all power and authority by Jehovah. he is a mirror image of Jehovah. and our creator. Jesus never told anybody to worship him because Jesus wants people to worship Jehovah not himself that's why he came here! but let us never ever forget that Jesus Christ could if he wanted to speak this world into a fireball! let us respect this kind king that holds all power and authority yet doesn't use it harshly like a flesh man would! Jehovah God has long known that men like to worship idols and statues so he sent his own word to earth and made it into a fleshly representation so that people could have some idea what Jehovah would be like if he could come down and chat with us! so Jesus Christ is gods image that he himself sculpted for us. so that we could see and do in our flesh what god would do if he was made of flesh! so is Jesus almighty god? no. but he is every bit in harmony with Jehovah and can do whatever Jehovah has given him to do! he is the 2 and most powerful being in all the universe. and I don't think Jehovah would mind one little bit if you bowed low and said yes lord Jesus I will certainly obey you.
     
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    belongingtojah

    belongingtojah Member

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    Hi Frank and jehovahisgod,

    You both just said the same thing in different words that describe in a very real way the relationship between Jehovah and Jesus.

    Hi agree with you both.

    1. Jehovah is the Almighty the one and only.

    2. Jesus is the only begotten who became a man by Jehovah's will and perfected his love as mentioned in Hebrews and has been raised up a immortal and a Mighty God. He is truly a one of a kind. 2nd in command and we are to be obedient too and bend our knee to Him.

    3. In like manner those who are called/chosen/sealed anointed ones will become just like Jesus in that they will be incorruptible and immortal and be His little brothers - who are in a spiritual sense his Bride.

    What a beautiful and wonderful hope has been put upon these ones who are undeserving and yet still sanctified and will be made like Him.

    Have a blessed day.

    Joe
     
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    Utuna

    Utuna Administrator

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    Hi Frank,

    You said :

    It all depends on what you mean by the word "perfect".

    Do you remember what I wrote once about the hand, as a summary of a radio program I had listened to on the radio ? The hand is perfect for what it was made for but you can't walk on your hands like you do on your feet. The feet instead are perfect to that end.

    Perfection is relative.

    For sure, from heaven, Jesus would have perfectly judged humans anyway (no mistakes, no misjudgments, etc) but...

    Once again, you may remember that which I wrote about an elder in my congregation who just had been appointed some time ago. Some other elders didn't want him to be appointed because of his family problems, thinking that he wasn't an example in that regard. He was appointed anyway and one friend of mine said something that marked me : You know, that brother may not be a super hero in many aspects but, after all the problems he went through in his life, he knows what it is to cry (or said otherwise, he knows the kind of pain mere tears may hide). He'll be a fantastic shepherd.

    "In carrying on YOUR contest against that sin YOU have never yet resisted as far as blood" - Heb 12:4

    Jesus was perfect but only someone who has suffered deeply, as far as blood, as far as death, only such a person can really feel deep down in their "guts" what it is like to suffer, to feel afflicted, to be the object of contempt, betrayal, etc. Jesus knew everything of Good and Bad. He must have seen plenty of thousands of people die in the past. He may have killed thousands too... BUT he never was in their shoes... and all the more so for a death he didn't deserve...

    For example, even if a married elder may have compassion when in presence of a brother of his congregation shedding tears and feeling devastated by the loss of his spouse, he may be a subtil psychologist and have a way with words, but no matter how hard he may try, someone's got to have gone through such a heartwrenching moment to really understand the depth of sufferings and pain the tears shed are just the humble testimony of. You may understand it on intellectual grounds but experiencing it is life-changing. The bleeding wounds opened wide by experience do make a difference... They really do...

    Jesus had to know that which evil caused to others and to him can really be and may feel like. There's no such thing in heaven... He had to undergo it all down here, on earth...
     
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    Gabriel

    Gabriel Guest

    You have always been a guy with deep thoughts and fluent with words on a deep intellectual level. You continue to amaze, inspire, and encourage. I LOVE YOUR POST!
     
  6. Hi Utuna:

    I agree with you 100%, thanks, you made my point even better than I did. God would not need this extra experience to know this, but Jesus/Michael did, being a created being. But, not only did he learn all the things you spoke about in your comment, but along with that he learned perfect LOVE!

    Many times people say that Adam & Eve were "perfect", but they don't seem to see that that term is "relative" in their respect. They were "perfect" therefore they can never be forgiven for their sins. The two ideas seem incongruous to me.

    Frank
     
    Last edited by a moderator: Apr 26, 2014
  7. Hi Gabriel:

    Nice to see that smiling face again, brother!

    Frank
     
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    Gabriel

    Gabriel Guest

    Thanks Francis, son of charles (did I mention to you before how AWESOME that sounds?) There are moments when I reach low points and I have to take a step back for a little while until Im able to regain perspective of things. I've never really gone anywhere tho. I just lurk more often than I log in until I feel I have something that may be useful...or at least interesting to say :)
     
  9. Hi Gabriel:

    I always had love and admiration for my Dad, as many but not all kids do. When I became a Father myself, it gave me a whole new appreciation for him and all the things he did for me. The time he spent with me, the times he disciplined me (that was quite often, I must say) and the overall love that he had for all of his children. The name I use on here and in my email account are my small tribute to him. I am so proud to be his son. Glad you like it.

    Frank
     

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