"Know Your Enemy" - Video series

Discussion in 'General Discussions' started by SingleCell, Sep 25, 2014.

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    SingleCell

    SingleCell Experienced Member

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    [video=youtube;bq_TUmsywzY]https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=bq_TUmsywzY&list=PL7E4EE14A54F2B301&index=23[/video]

    This is a good summary series of videos for a Bible student, thought I would share. Very Alexander Hislop-ish

    This one is an overview of the pagan-Catholic connection.

    Some of it is bunk .. just a forewarning.

    But for a glimpse into some of the weirder components of the Nimrod -> Babylon legends / scriptures, this is pretty good.

    And for the most part sticks to an interpretation of scripture most of us would agree with.
     
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    jehovahisgod

    jehovahisgod Experienced Member

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    thank you. I will enjoy watching.
     
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    Tsaphah

    Tsaphah Experienced Member

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    Thanks for the post SingleCell,
    I'll have to get used to the accent.
    I'll watch the whole series. It's interesting that the "Know Your Enemy" was a warning I was given way back when.


     
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    AnnOMaly

    AnnOMaly New Member

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    0:40 - "... indoctrinated with the habits, superstitions and traditions that had originated with Nimrod and Semiramis

    It doesn't bode well for the rest of the video if the information is based on Hislopian fiction. The historical Semiramis and the biblical Nimrod lived centuries apart so couldn't have been the husband and wife team who instituted the habits, superstitions and traditions of so-called 'Babylonish' worship allegedly adopted by Roman Catholicism.

    4:00 - "Then there is the fact that he [Constantine] changed the traditional Sabbath day of God which was Saturday to the now generally accepted Sunday or Sun god day."​

    This 'fact' is misleading.

    Christians had already long made Sunday a special day of worship. Constantine just made it an official day of rest (for most people). See another perspective: http://www.letusreason.org/7thad18.htm.

    I'd double-check what this video guy says before swallowing it whole. Very loud alarm bells should ring if he's using Hislop as support. Jus' sayin'.

     
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    Poetry of Providence

    Poetry of Providence Active Member

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    Ann , I get an empty webpage on the link ...
     
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    SingleCell

    SingleCell Experienced Member

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    I completely agree! (I probably shouldn't have shared this - as noted, some of it is bunk)

    He seems to reject the Catholic system but still embraces their doctrines ... weird.

    Regardless, I found it entertaining, and mildly informative in other places. (I didn't realize he did an anti-JW video either ...)

    Probably best to avoid this series if you are wavering about certain things - or mods, if you see fit, delete this thread.
     
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    Poetry of Providence

    Poetry of Providence Active Member

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    Sorry , Single Cell , I hadn't looked above to see your original youtube video ...
    but now I see it's pretty standard information ...Personally I enjoyed Hislops
    book particularly the symbolism that is also currently pervasive in nearly all
    religions ...
     
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    SingleCell

    SingleCell Experienced Member

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    I enjoyed it as well, primary because he attempts to track and connect ideas throughout history.

    There are a number of debunks though, so with a grain of salt.
     
    Last edited by a moderator: Oct 1, 2014
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    Utuna

    Utuna Administrator

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    Wallflower being our Mod Almighty, her wish is my command ! ;) I got no such thing from her so far....

    I've had tons of things to do lately and I had put the video you invited us to watch in the back burner. I'll watch it anyway, despite your disclaimer.

    You thought that it was interesting, and I know that it was for a reason... :)
     
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    AnnOMaly

    AnnOMaly New Member

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    Ooops. I don't know what happened there.

    http://www.letusreason.org/7thad18.htm

    C&p if all else fails. ... If this thread's still here.
     
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    AnnOMaly

    AnnOMaly New Member

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    It is very impressive-looking and fascinating; it appears thoroughly researched with lots of references ...

    ... but it's utter bunk.

    When the book first came out, this was one review:
    In the first place, his whole superstructure is raised upon nothing. Our earliest authority for the history of Semiramis wrote about the commencement of the Christian era, and the historian from whom he drew his information lived from fifteen hundred to two thousand years after the date which Mr. Hislop assigns to the great Assyrian Queen. The most lying legend which the Vatican has ever endorsed stands on better authority than the history which is now made the ground of a charge against it.

    Secondly, the whole argument proceeds upon the assumption that all heathenism has a common origin. Accidental resemblances in mythological details are taken as evidence of this, and nothing is allowed for the natural working of the human mind.

    Thirdly, Mr. Hislop's method of reasoning would make anything of anything. By the aid of obscure passages in third-rate historians, groundless assumptions of identity, and etymological torturing of roots, all that we know, and all that we believe, may be converted ... into something totally different.

    Fourthly, Mr. Hislop's argument proves too much. He finds not only the corruption of Popery, but the fundamental articles of the Christian faith, in his hypothetical Babylonian system ...

    We take leave of Mr. Hislop and his work with the remark that we never before quite knew the folly of which ignorant or half-learned bigotry is capable.

    - "The Saturday Review", September 17, 1859, p. 340 as reproduced in Ralph Woodrow's book The Babylon Connection? (2004), p.20.​


    Also see http://www.equip.org/articles/the-two-babylons/#christian-books-5

    ---------------

    Wow! For years I've wanted to see an original copy of the 1859 review and at last it's been put on the 'net! *Jumping for joy* :D

    http://books.google.co.uk/books?id=ob9LAAAAcAAJ&q=Hislop#v=snippet&q=Hislop&f=false
     
    Last edited by a moderator: Oct 2, 2014
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    Utuna

    Utuna Administrator

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    You said :
    Well, that's what I jokingly call a "scriptural soup".

    You take a certain amount of sophism, a certain amount of association of ideas, a certain amount of puns, tons of crass ignorance and vivid imagination; you stir it all good and voilà !

    You get an X-files and/or Walt Disney fable that humours the trustful and unwary ones !

    Said otherwise, you get ideas connected together through what seems a logical thread just because they are at the same place and at the same moment thanks to somebody's volition, like for a recipe, and not because the whole thing makes sense on its own.

    All scriptural soups may not have the same level of thickness but the underlying thought pattern that cooked each one of them remains nonetheless the same.

    [​IMG]
     
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    wallflower

    wallflower Moderator

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    Mod Almighty???? (Rolls eyes.)


    Anyway, I just wanted to say that I'm OK with the video staying up.

    Everyone is aware that it contains bunk and is to be taken with a grain of salt.

    It's like when I'm critiquing or analysing a Watchtower study article or a video, or when I'm analysing information that was presented at an assembly. ("This article contained some bunk......I know this because etc, etc, etc" and then I explain why.)

    And we have done the same exercise in analysing material that has been posted in previous threads on the forum, discussing various topics.

    So to me, the video falls in the same category - analysing the material presented is an intellectual exercise.


    Wallflower
     
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    Poetry of Providence

    Poetry of Providence Active Member

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    Don't worry about it Ann , occasionally a link will not work
    and also if I had "fully read" the thread I would have
    understood that you were reflecting on Single Cell's link
    which I did "get" to after I chose to to further search it ..
    I added two links to the "tools for Bible Study" thread
    that cover two full documentaries ...While whatever
    concoctions Hislop had wrong they do take a good
    portion and attempt to thread it's influence throughout
    history ..I found them enjoyable (also because some of
    us have continued our historical readings over the years)
    like books "Conflicts of Religion in the Roman Empire,
    Josephus , Eusebius oh and obviously Hislop as the
    Society dispensed it for years .

    And Single Cell , I love the Gaelic accent ...I actually
    took Latin in private boarding school with a teacher
    who taught Latin with the Gaelic accent ..and deeply
    Catholic she was ...(having ancestry come out of
    both Scotland and Ireland I still enjoy hearing the
    tonal inflections)
     
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    Poetry of Providence

    Poetry of Providence Active Member

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    That is the contextual problem we all have with all of history Ann .
    that whether paid for as were the scribes of ancient kingdoms
    who wrote what their masters dictated and those who have a
    certain perspective they wish to annihilate or glorify ...The only
    history that I consider certain is the biblical one ..not withstanding
    those who still today "meddle" in its translations have managed
    to add to and take away from even its certainty by both translating
    with certain ideology in mind or just plain adding things that are
    not there ...
    John 5
    39 You search the Scriptures because you think that in them you
    have eternal life; and it is they that bear witness about me, 40 yet
    you refuse to come to me that you may have life.

    (not you ) So in fact we all read with the understanding that we
    have information riddled with error ...whether I can find some
    truths contained in them , is a little like gleaning the fields ..as
    that is how I find much our "worldly pursuits" into learning to be
    "digging" through a pile of dirt to find some nuggets or gems ..
    I don't require myself to tear apart what is there , it is time
    consuming , but in fact I love learning and find that frequently
    they tend to affirm the foundation of why a chosen field of
    study is desirable , such as the life of the Christ ...If any of it
    lays a stronger cementing of the truth in it then it's purpose has
    been satisfied ...(for me)
     
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    SingleCell

    SingleCell Experienced Member

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    As an aside to the great points Poetry made, I think we have impetus to conclude that there is a 'common thread' of the 'mystery' Babylon running through all of human society.

    This is where Hisplop's work has value in my estimation - seeking to connect those dots, even if not perfectly, gives all of us who read it branching perspectives that *might* lead to true insight.
     
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    AnnOMaly

    AnnOMaly New Member

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    He sought to make connections where none existed - they were figments of his overactive imagination and spawned from his hate for all things Roman Catholic which, in true 'shooting oneself in the foot' fashion, also undermined wider Christian doctrine and practice. The value of Hislop's work is in it being a cautionary tale on how a person can blind others with complex and technical-sounding knowledge, draw in the hapless and ignorant (and I don't mean that in a nasty way, having been one of them myself) or those with similar prejudices, and how bogus information can persist in many religious groups' collective consciousness like a pernicious weed.

    :)
     
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    Poetry of Providence

    Poetry of Providence Active Member

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    ahhh , Ann , you make me "almost" want to go back and read it again just to gather your perspective .
    but I think I have some idea of where it lays . not withstanding ...since I've almost hit giddy this am ;
    my little stint among catholics (including boarding school) and being in the presence of those
    counting beads and kneeling before two story statures (and the hair on my body standing on end)
    anything that can break that monumental hold on the psyche's of those held in her embrace has my
    enthusiasm ..The fact that many may have used it in the way you mention (regarding fictionalizing
    "religion") a good portion of "christian" literature" has apparently had the same effect on those who
    have found lies in them and used it to justify where they land . Any lie found within any thesis makes
    the whole thesis suspect ...My father had a "Masters in History" and his perspective was strictly
    in the material realm ...his perspective of even a discussion such as "the nature of divinity" , as ideological
    influences from deepest part of mans "development" ranges from superstition (because they were
    "uneducated" and without knowledge)..a man like that can keep you on your toes , but the reality is
    he was unconscionable in the nature of his character (tho he purported tolerance as his basic
    view towards humanity) even if he could lay out the "realities" of every day life and build a book
    around them ..(he also published a travel magazine and wrote some of the state history for
    California) so I think I might understand some of your analysis of the book and why ...his perspective
    of discussions on board like this would be exactly like the WT saying "those outside our sphere" are
    delusional . For me this is just a reaffirmation of Pauls statement in 1Cor 15:12-19 ...Dad was not
    unfamiliar with "church" from both his parents and whatever philosophical courses he took in that
    15 year pursuit (along with two other degrees) and he hated "church" . But he was always good
    for a lively discussion ...if it was pursuit of "history" and mans development. Any lie is pernicious , the
    fact that the whole consciousness of mankind is filled with them is the spiders web that encircles
    the Globe ...
    (not withstanding if any "lie" genders a search for truth it has served a purpose for those who
    would refuse to remain under under it's persuasion)

    Single Cell I think a thread attempting to track "Babylon the Great" would be fun , interesting ,
    enlightening and entertaining ...I have to go back to one of the documentaries I watched recently
    stated that Vatican City is actually built on/over the ruins of one of the nature Goddesses taken
    from out of "Persian Asia" I have to go back and find out which one it was again .

    in the interim today I am driving to Albany to "officially retire" ..hope to get my money out
    of SSI before we sink into the "official death of the dollar ...four hours of driving today or
    more ..
     
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    SingleCell

    SingleCell Experienced Member

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    Fair enough. However I would challenge the notion that there is NOT a common thread of pagan systems weaving itself throughout society, primarily expressed through the RCC in the Western World.

    Catholics believe in an immortal soul, a collaborative trinity of gods, bowing to idols for protection, praying to the dead for intercession and ultimately making A man god on earth.

    (Vicarius Filii Dei - representative / replacement for the son of god)

    Hislop didn't need to be 100%, rather point out the similarities between Roman Catholicism and pre-Christian paganism.

    Even if he was 100% wrong, I have to agree with Poetry that the work is enough to shake the tree and perhaps some who actually care about truth will fall out.

    It's fairly obvious (IMO) that the RCC stands in opposition to God, and has adopted pre-Christian frameworks which identify themselves with Canaan, Babylon and similar conceptions.

    -----

    There is also the notion that 'Babylon' has imposed itself into our modern world in the form of a 'Greater' version of the Neo-Empire from 600 - 500 BCE.
     
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    AnnOMaly

    AnnOMaly New Member

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    Most of mainstream Christianity believes in the immortal soul - even those denominations that rail against Catholicism. JWs believe in a version of the immortal soul in the case of the 'anointed' who die after 1918.

    Most of mainstream Christianity believes in a Triune God - even those denominations that rail against Catholicism. The issues are not as black and white as we may assume and Trinitarians aren't without their killer scriptural texts.

    Devotion to icons are taken too far. I'll give you that.

    But according to Catholics, they are not dead. The 'saints' are alive in heaven, remember? It's the communion of saints - church triumphant (alive in heaven) with the church militant (those still alive on earth): Heb. 12:22, 23; Rev. 5:8; 8:3, 4. Although praying to the resurrected anointed would be considered wrong in the Org's eyes, the belief is that these heavenly anointed may be communicating with the anointed still on earth. See w07, 1/1, p. 28.

    Quite right too. The Word was divine, the only-begotten god - John 1:1, 18.

    Myth. Popes have never claimed that title.

    There are those who point out similarities between the cult of Mithras and Christianity. It doesn't mean Christianity is Mithraism in disguise.

    Well yes, sometimes a book masquerading as historical truth can kick-start research by the reader. One can learn much when in the process of examining shoddy scholarship. :)

    Ah yes. The futurist interpretation of Revelation. I assume so, anyway.

    ---

    Btw, FYI, I won't be around here for a few days.
     

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