Apostasy, if my recollection is correct is "a turning away". In the Watchtower's case they were a people dedicated to the gathering of the first new covenant Saints and discovering the true understanding of the scriptures, including pointing out the coming of the Lord. They also were a people who recognized what the U.N. was and what it represented. At a convention in the 1960's they took a vow never to come under the influence of the U.N. and pointed out that it was the enemy of God and only a pretender to bring peace and security. Well, because of the influence of false brothers who had worked their way up into the corridors of power in the Watchtower (Jezebel) the organization was convinced that it would do no harm in being an NGO and comporting themselves to the Charter of the U.N. if it would be a way to gain a good relationship with the U.N. so they could preach in all the inhabited earth without opposition. Also, they could use U.N. planes and helicopters to provide aid for the brothers ( a very good motive, but was the cost worth it?. This was a test from Satan on Jesus (the part of the Bride, his flesh that was still on earth) and they failed the same test that Jesus passed in the wilderness with Satan. So he brought him up and showed him all the kingdoms of the inhabited earth in an instant of time.+6 Then the Devil said to him: “I will give you all this authority and their glory, because it has been handed over to me,+ and I give it to whomever I wish.7 If you, therefore, do an act of worship before me, it will all be yours.” Luke 4:5-7 In order for us to pave the way for you to have free reign in your preaching work is get all your people to (knowingly or unknowingly, we don't care) advertise the good qualities of the U.N. while you are doing your worldwide preaching. Seemed like such a small thing perhaps, but when I found out what they had me do for an entire decade almost, I was livid, and I wasn't the only one. They had broken their vow to Jehovah "turned away" from him in apostasy and put their trust in the U.N. instead of Jehovah God himself. They signed an agreement with Satan's organization and promised to follow the Charter of the U.N.. Then, to make matters worse, when they got caught they did what most unrepentant people do, they lied. This apostasy and their lack of repentance cost them their relationship with God and their baptism of faith (how can you oversee a baptism of repentance to God when you are grossly unrepentant? Then to go a step further, they "kill" those trying to serve God faithfully when these ones question this hypocrisy and call them to task for their sinfulness by disfellowshipping them or publicly reproving them for taking the Societies sinfulness to task. They acted like the Pharisees in Jesus time. Does this mean that all the leaders & rank and file are evil people, of course not. What it means is that the imposter's are very good at their game and may not even realize themselves that they are leading the Watchtower in the wrong direction.
Agreed. But regarding the apostasy, wouldn't it be more congruent to compare the NGO fiasco with Josiah's covenant with death (Egypt) against Assyria? An error, yes, and a costly one. (it stumbled you brother! that is a cost... how many others?) Apostasy is becoming anti-Christ, to reject that Jesus came in the flesh, and was raised in the spirit. That is the only definition in the Bible I think we should accept, otherwise, our opinion can quickly become a charge of "apostasy". The entire WT prophetic timeline is wrong; therefore, they weren't giving anything to Satan, they were however, being hypocritical within their framework. Maybe I'm wrong though.
Remember, God gave them nearly ten years to repent and yet they chose to remain unrepentant sinners against God. Make no mistake Jehovah is always willing to forgive, but repentance must precede forgiveness. Since their sin is widely known, their repentance should be before all onlookers. I doubt the leaders of the Watchtower would ever do that, but I too would welcome it. I don't mean in any way that they owe me anything, but I would be joyful to hear their expression of guilt and repentance before God. The timeline of the Watchtower's sin is actually exactly according to scripture.
All these ideas on the little horn are cool. But you guys are missing the first obvious detail! Another word for little horn,??? A trump!!! A tump or trumpet is a little horn. And certainly a fitting symbol for a man who blows his own horn ahead of himself
The WTBS interpretation of the horns on the unusually strong beast is subpar. It can be argued that Britain is the horn with eyes and a mouth or more fittingly the globalists which are centered in britain but the France, Spain and Netherlands thing doesn't mesh well given how much of the timeframe of that horn is clearly in the time of the end. A future fulfillment is sound but I vary from Robert on the identity of two of the three horns plucked out. These three kings to be humiliated must be obstacles to the goal of the blaspheming horn that is global trampling dominion France and Britain are all for world government though. America stands as an obstacle and the amount of time and effort the globalist have invested in subverting America is pretty ludicrous and as the standing president declared Americanism not globalism will be our credo. Russia: since the mid 19th century Britain has been terrified of US and Russian cooperation in an environment free of meddling the US and Russia are natural allies additionally the Russia undermined the Rothschild's efforts to set up WWI decades early which they swore revenge on the Russian revolution was part experiment, part revenge and part an effort to make the US and Russia ideologically incompatible so they couldn't carry that prior relationship through the twentieth century. Presently Russia has moved past the Soviet days and is nationalist pro family pro (orthodox) christian and the globalist are obsessed with provoking war against it. China is frenemies with the NWO they cooperate with them on a lot but think they can do better and call the shots. The economic maneuvering of Russia and China poses a significant threat the globalist which would be increased significantly if the US joined.
On the topic of horns was speculating at work on The 7 headed 10 horned naturally the seven heads call to mind the world powers Egypt, Assyria, Babylon, Medo-Persia, Greece, Rome I was thinking that given there are ten horns naturally three years would have two horns which reminded me of the dual world powers the two horned ram, the false prophet etcetera. If there was some correspondance in this fashion Medo-Persia and Anglo-America would be two of those three I'd lean towards Rome the other as it eventually split into the eastern and western empires. Just idle thought the ten may be wholly symbolic.
Agreed, the horns are *not* symbolic, the established interpretive mechanics are demonstrated in Daniel. There will be "two kingdoms" composing the lamb-dragon of Rev 13, because a horn means a kingdom power. (Daniel 7 / 8) ------------ For the 3 humiliated kings, very interesting reasoning! Running with it, there are 10 horns and 7 heads: Are "we" JWs correct that the 7 are as you mentioned Egypt -> Anglo-America? Daniel 2 provides the baseline nations of the latter 5 Babylon, combined with Moses -> Isaiah we have the other two Egypt / Assyria. I'm inclined to conclude this is correct. So do we count the horns in Daniel as being 10 divided among these 7, rather than as many assume, the 10 are on the 7th head? 1 horn -> Egypt 2 -> Assyria 4 -> Medo / Persia 5 -> Greece 6 -> Rome 8 -> Anglo-America 9 / 10 -> resurrected Anglo-America post-death-stroke? 11 horn -> death-stroked 7th head becomes 8th king and 11th horn: EU-UN-global Stated more abstractly, this would be some Western entity post-collapse (resurrected head) global "peaceful" legal structure through the UN and other institutuions already within the nation-states, with a digital economic system [crypto, etc], and hence with the ability to control "buying and selling" through access to the network (very, very easy to do, and coming, regardless) Then, the humiliated 3 would be Anglo-America (US-UK) and Rome (Italy, Vatican), which become: 2 horn lamb-dragon and false prophet, promoting the Anglo-European "democratic" hegemon.
According to Revelation 19:20 the false prophet is tossed into the lake of fire while still alive it's destruction is after the beast destroys Babylon the Great so whether whole or a component part the Vatican cannot be part of the false prophet. This is not to say that the Catholic church does not play a larger role in future events than JW's generally believe as Daniel and Amos indicate it does. Britain will fall but it presents no obstacle to the blaspheming horn of Daniel it'll likely go a slightly later. Agreed it's fall is part of the deathstroke of Revelation.
Greetings brother... I wanted to add a few ideas, in case you hadn't considered them... Many people (including Robert) believe all of Revelation is a future fulfillment. I might add that this is the case until it is no longer the case. Jesus didn't give the Revelation to show what hasn't occurred yet, but what was to occur, not that everything in it hadn't happened. You can describe what is to come by including past events. Rev 1:1 "A revelation by Jesus Christ, which God gave him, to show his slaves the things that must shortly take place." Again, the Revelation was given to show John what was coming, it does not say that every single thing in it hadn't been fulfilled yet. Have you studied the 10 kingdoms of Rome, and the three kingdoms destroyed by the newly established Roman-Catholic rule? Heruli Vandals Ostrogoths As to the deathstroke of Rev 13; What is the one nation appearing alive in the end, that we know was part of the 7 headed wild beast, but was destroyed? Babylon is named alive in the end after being destroyed, is it not? Can any other nation be the desthstroke that is healed? Keep in mind, it is only one head of the beast that is struck, then healed, and the abyssing is clearly not the same event as coming out of the sea. The beast comes out of the sea with the sword stroke healed, and it's that beast post deathstroke healed that goes into the abyss and then back out. Have you considered that the 7 heads have had several fulfillments? Dan 2, Dan 7 and Rev 13 are all connected 1:1, they are all the same vision. What if these succession of kingdoms keeps playing out over and over?
I agree that several chapters of Daniel are the same vision the unity and correspondence between elements of not just 2 and 7 but the rest of Daniel has become more evident to me in the past month. As for Revelation 13 not quite ready yet to commit to the notion that the beast of revelation and the Iron one are fully identical I'm certainly open to discussion on the matter. As far as future fullfilment i was speaking of that specific event the three horn plucking in that statement a future fulfillment seemed sensible last time I read the vision as the chain of events seemed to flow smoother. unrelated but I'm finding a lot of other prophecies flow better when we discard 1914. Agreed the stroke and abusing are desperate events. I do appreciate the recognition and attention drawn to patterns and multiple fullfilment on the forum (and will post on that soon) even if I'm not ready at the moment to endorse some of the views expressed. I read the Two Babylons as a teen so I know the office of the pope can be traced directly all the way to Nimrod and they are his successors as far as the religous element goes; not saying the Catholic Church IS Babylon as some do but it is certainly appropriate to acknowledge it as the most prominent part. Naturally 1 Corinthians 13:22 comes in to play 12 For now we see in hazy outline by means of a metal mirror, but then it will be face-to-face. At present I know partially, but then I will know accurately, just as I am accurately known. So while I lean more towards some interpretations and am more skeptical of others there are few I rule out entirely or express full belief in. I do appreciate everyone's take and input iron sharpens iron and "Plans fail when there is no consultation, But there is accomplishment through many advisers."
You might look into the idea that the second beast of Rev 13 is the iron and clay, or fourth beast/little horn... 1914 is an error... There is no connection of the heaven high tree in Daniel 4 to the Davadic throne... Very good, Jehovah has given you this insight, few see it... Very few... An obvious multiple fulfillment is the Maccabean Revolt from 167-160 BCE, and it's correlation to 66-70 CE and the Jewish Revolt. Both of these events are prophecied in Daniel 8, and will occur again in the end. The prior events help us understand what is to come... I might suggest (if your interested in chronology) that the most important Scripture to start with is Dan 12:11. The 1290 days are the time period in between the two events. If you like that, look at this: Dan 4 and the heaven high tree is cut down for 7 times. Now if you take those 7 times and convert them into 360 day years, you get 2520 (just as the Watchtower agrees), but instead of the tree representing the Davadic throne, what if it represents Babylon? After all, that is what the angel said, it represented the king. So, is there another story in the Bible that is similar to the tree falling down that corresponded to Babylon? Yep, Gen 11; Dan 2:43 "Just as you saw iron mixed with soft clay, they will be mixed with the people" Gen 11:3 “Come! Let us make bricks and bake them with fire" Dan 4:11 "The tree grew and became strong, and its top reached the heavens" Gen 11:4 "Come! Let us build a city for ourselves and a tower with its top in the heavens" Dan 4:12 "Beneath it the beasts of the field would seek shade," Gen 11:4 "so that we will not be scattered over the entire face of the earth." Dan 4:13 "I saw a watcher, a holy one, coming down from the heavens. He called out loudly: “Chop down the tree," Gen 11:4&7 "Then Jehovah went down to see the city / Come! Let us go down there and confuse their language" Dan 4:14 "cut off its branches, shake off its leaves, and scatter its fruit!" Gen 11:8 "So Jehovah scattered them from there over the entire face of the earth," The tower of Babel was constructed approximately in the year 2200 BCE, and 2520 years later you come to 319 CE. Now that just so happens to be the year the Old St. Peter's Basilica began construction. Interesting, no?
“Consult your friend on all things, especially on those which respect yourself. His counsel may then be useful where your own self-love might impair your judgment.” - Seneca - - - - - - - - - - - - I could go into the long story of how I got this information, but I won’t. I came across the Greek word “gnome” (gno’-may), defined as: 1. the faculty of knowledge, mind, reason 2. that which is thought or known, one’s mind a. view, judgement, opinion b. mind concerning what ought to be done 1. by one’s self: resolve purpose, intention 2. by others: judgment, advice 3. decree Gnome comes from ginosko (ghin-oce’-ko) = a prolonged form of a primary verb defined as: 1. to learn to know, come to know, get a knowledge of perceive, feel a. to become known 2. to know, understand, perceive, have knowledge of a. to understand b. to know 3. Jewish idiom for sexual intercourse between a man and a woman 4. to become acquainted with, to know Here is the interesting part of understanding the meaning. In Revelation 17, speaking of the beast on which the “harlot” sits, this word, gnome, is used several times, and is translated as “purpose” in English. “These have one purpose, and they give their power and authority to the beast.” ( Rev 17:13 NASB ) “For God has put it in their hearts to execute His purpose by having a common purpose, and by giving their kingdom to the beast, until the words of God will be fulfilled.” ( Rev 17:17 NASB ) While reading this portion of Rev 17, and making the connection of this word, I went back to verse 12 because it deals with the “ten horns” and “ten kings”. The Greek word for king, kings, is Basileia ( bas-il-i’-ah ) , from which we get basilica. basilica (n.) 1540s, “type of building based on the Athenian royal portico, large oblong building with double columns and a semicircular porch at the end,” from Latin basilica “building of a court of justice,” from Greek (stoa) basilike “royal (portal),” in Athens the portico of the archon basileus, the official who dispensed justice in Athens; from fem. adjective of basileus “king” (see Basil). In Rome, the style of building used for halls of justice, many of which were subsequently appropriated as churches, and so it became a standard plan for new churches. The word is applied to the seven principal Roman churches founded by Constantine. The specific reference to Christian churches in English is attested by 1560s. These Greek words come from the word basis, from baino (to walk), the foot. It reminds me of a song titled “Walk This Way”, by the band Aerosmith, from the album Toys In The Attic”.