Malachi and the LXX

Discussion in 'Bible Prophecy' started by Utuna, Jan 17, 2015.

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    Utuna

    Utuna Administrator

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    Mon père aurait dit : "Au royaume des aveugles, les borgnes sont rois."
     
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    Joshuastone7

    Joshuastone7 Administrator Staff Member

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    So Issac's children were half human and half God huh? So we have nephelim among us, and here I thought the unions between angels and men were detestable to God, but i'm sure you can set this aside in the same way as you do with the fact that there is no proof that these men had prahuman existences.
     
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    Joshuastone7

    Joshuastone7 Administrator Staff Member

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    Frank, I really like the part about the fire signs, especially that gas station fire in Texas that's supposedly prophecied in scripture, right?...lol
     
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    Joshuastone7

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    Im so glad you are here to teach us what holy spirit is. Having a chosen one from God like yourself is a great privilege. Of course as you say here in this post, we won't be able to understand what you do untill we get the spirit that you have that gives you the special knowledge you have. Maybe then I'll get to understand those fire signs, that is a good read after all, if I could just see how they have anything to do with scripture.

    Since you say you won't be able to teach us the truth, all of us here will have to wait for the holy spirit (which we don't understand yet, because we have no idea at this point) and then we will understand right? Dang, Jehovah must have just been playing a trick on me the first time.

    I asked you a question that I would like the answer too, are you from heaven, an angel that had a prehuman existence? We simply don't know how privileged we are to be graced by your presence do we?
     
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    Joshuastone7

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    Oh I've read your posts several times now, and have studied them in great detail, and I indeed understand what you are saying quite well. I understand that your interpretation of the first messenger in Mal 3:1 as an angel is personal interpretation when in fact the first fulfillment in John was obviously as a human, (which you agree) but yet you say the first messenger in Mal 3:1 is to represent an angel from heaven in the time of the end. Your attempt to say the first messenger is to denote a physical angel falls short with both it's first fulfillment and the fact that there is absolutely no connection to the first messenger in Mal 3:1 to any physical angel in existence, and in fact we can trace this messenger to a representation of Elijah, another "human", that makes two humans so far. Yet you have the stones to say that's not what the word means.

    Your connections are like a conspiracy theorist who tape newspapers all over his wall and connect red yarn from one story to another, it only exists in your own mind.

    Oh yes, I understand your contradictions quite well.

    Now of course I will believe if you can just offer a little more SOLID proof that the first messenger in Mal 3:1 is meant to be a physical angel regardless of the fact that, that very word {mal-awk'} had a first fulfillment as a human. After all, I would think history is pretty plain on it's definition, John and Elijah were clearly men, yet you want to believe its definition changes to your liking along the way in the time of the end because it doesn't fit your two witnesses theory.

    Of course the word can mean angel, but it also means prophet, priest or teacher. What did Jehovah mean by it? We already have the answer...
     
  6. Hi Josh:

    I hope you feel better now after getting that frustration and anger out of your system. I don't mind you taking it out on me. No, I am no one special, have not had a prehuman existence that I am aware of. I will not fight with you though Josh. We don't see things from the same point of view and that is OK with me even if it isn't OK with you.

    frank
     
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    Utuna

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    I'm done for now quoting stuff from Malachi. There are yet many other interesting details and ideas to share, which I may do in the following weeks or months.

    One last :

    (Malachi 4:2 - NWT) ". . .and YOU will actually go forth and paw the ground like fattened calves.â€

    Mal 4:2 - NIV
    And you will go out and leap like calves released from the stall.

    Mal 4:2-3 - NLT
    And you will go free, leaping with joy like calves let out to pasture.

    This verse is often connected with Ez. 37:13 : "And YOU will have to know that I am Jehovah when I open YOUR burial places and when I bring YOU up out of YOUR burial places, O my people.â€"

    Here, the freedom in question (go forth, go out, go free) that causes joy is considered as being freedom from sin and also from death, which is why the connection was made between Mal. 4:2 and Ez. 37:13.

    An example of this can be read in Ph 1:23 : "I am under pressure from these two things; but what I do desire is the releasing and the being with Christ, for this, to be sure, is far better."

    Please compare with Acts 2:24 : "But God resurrected him by loosing the pangs of death, because it was not possible for him to continue to be held fast by it".

    and "The ropes of death encircled me;
    Flash floods of good-for-nothing [men] also kept terrifying me.
    " - Ps 18:4

    Please read also :

    5D The Releasing to Be With Christ

    Php 1:23—“releasing.†Gr., a·na·ly′sai; Lat., dis·sol′vi

    The verb a·na·ly′sai is used as a verbal noun here. It occurs only once more in the Christian Greek Scriptures, in Lu 12:36, where it refers to Christ’s return. The related noun a·na′ly·sis occurs once, in 2Ti 4:6, where the apostle says: “The due time for my releasing is imminent.†In Lu 12:36 we have rendered the verb “returns†because it refers to the breaking away and departing of the servants’ master from the wedding feast, so dissolving the feast. But here in Php 1:23 we have not rendered the verb as “returning†or “departing†but as “releasing.†The reason is that the word may convey two thoughts: the apostle’s own releasing to be with Christ at his return and the Lord’s releasing of himself from heavenly restraints to return as he promised.

    In no way is the apostle here saying that immediately at his death he would be changed into a spirit to be with Christ forever. Such getting to be with Christ the Lord will first be possible at Christ’s return, when the dead in Christ will rise first, according to the apostle’s own inspired statement in 1Th 4:15-17. It is to this return of Christ and the apostle’s releasing to be always with the Lord that Paul refers in Php 1:23. He says there that two things are immediately possible for him, namely, (1) to live on in the flesh and (2) to die. Because of the circumstances to be considered, he expressed himself as being under pressure from these two things, not making known which thing he would select. Then he presents a third thing, which he really desires. There is no question about his desire for this thing as preferable, namely, “the releasing,†for it means his being with Christ.

    Therefore, the expression to a·na·ly′sai, “the releasing,†cannot be applied to the apostle’s death as a human creature and his departing from this life. It must refer to the events at the time of Christ’s return and presence (see App 5B) and the rising of all those dead in Christ to be with him forever.
     
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    Utuna

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    The LXX was translated by the Jews for the Jews. They believed that the real Elijah would come down from heaven, where he had ascended on a chariot of fire. It's obvious that Elijah didn't come back on earth in person. It was holy spirit and the same pattern will repeat itself in the time of the end on Christ's brothers so it fulfills in them and through them Elijah's and Moses' ministry.
    As a result, I don't see why that which may empower two people only, as you believe, may not also empower many thousands, as I believe...
     
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    Joshuastone7

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    The LXX is only a translation from the original text into Greek. It is no different then the Tyndale Bible or the King James, they were the first translations into their language. By the time the LXX was translated they had already had misunderstandings about what the book said. Just because the Jews were given the original text inspired by God does not mean they understood it. You act like the Jews had perfect knowledge back then that was lost over time. We know more about the OT after the NT was released then the original translators could have ever known. You act like the LXX was inspired of God as a true explanation of the original text.

    You put so much emphasis on a man made translation. The LXX is only a translation by men who didn't even have all the information the translators of the New World Translation had. Our sources of information on the original texts far outweigh what those of the LXX had, and yet the best we can do is a translation, and that is it.

    You can no more use the LXX as a final translator to the OT then you can the NWT. They are both translations. Neither were inspired of God and as soon as you let go of such an idea that is holding you back the better off you will be brother.

    The LXX was translated by corrupt individuals who were allowing idols and false information creep into the true worship of God. Even you recognize it here with your next statement:

    Yet you say these men had perfect knowledge in order to translate the old testament to Greek in a way that defines more clearly what the original Hebrew was saying. When even you say they did not have all the information and believed fictitious things. Then how in the world could they have had perfect knowledge of what they original text said? Just because it was given to them does not mean they understood it, at all!

    Brother, I will say again how much I think that it is an incredibly dangerous idea to believe so blindly the LXX when it comes to someone wanting to dig deeper into the truth of Gods word.

    I don't understand, so are you now saying the first messenger of Mal 3:1 could represent all of Christs brothers? Are you now saying Elijah could be all of them? That is a departure from your post that said this individual would be an angel. Besides that, if that's what you are now saying that this first messenger could represent all of Christs brothers, you have just traded one personal interpretation for another. You can no more say this individual represents a group of people then you can say that this individual will be an angel.

    You have two witnesses in Rev, these two are described as Moses/Elijah and Joshua/Zerubbabel. You now have a description of just one of those two in Mal 3. So Mal 3 separates one single individual from the two, "Elijah". Now you are going to say when separating out one single individual this is still speaking of a group? Despite the fact that in every single context of this messenger and Elijah it is speaking of a single individual and the first fulfillment were single individuals? Where anywhere in scripture is the proof that any of these people are to represent a group? I read these accounts and they speak of individuals. I read the original text and they call for a single individual. I read of their first fulfillment as single individuals. If they were to represent thousands of people, don't you think the Bible would say that somewhere???? Just one place??? Where is that? Where does the Bible say the "two" witnesses of Rev 11 are thousands of people? Where does the Bible say that Joshua or zerubbabel are thousands of people, where does the Bible say that Elijah is thousands of people? Where can I find this messenger spoken of as an angel from heaven, or a group of thousands of people. Where can I find in history where the fulfillment of these individuals were speaking of all of Jerusalem? Would that not be the what Jehovah would have said if he meant all of Jerusalem?

    Elijah was a single human individual. John who came in the spirit of the first Elijah was a single human individual. Yet you believe the Elijah in the time of the end is a metaphor for a group. Where is that in scripture? With all the evidence pointing to an individual I don't see a single shred showing a group. And not to mention Jehovah doesn't change. He has always, and I do mean always used single human individuals to bring his judgement message to the world.

    (mal-’ā-ḵî, מַלְאָכִ֔י = Prophet) This is the true meaning of the word because we already know its fulfillment in John. Even the Bible hub rightfully denotes this word as meaning prophet in its b. definition here;

    b. a prophet Isaiah 42:19; Isaiah 44:26; 2Chronicles 36:15,16; Haggai 1:13; the herald of the advent מלאכי Malachi 3:1.

    Why wouldn't have Jehovah just said;

    "Look! I am sending (Jerusalem), and he will clear up a way before me."

    Why didn't he say anything other then what he did? I tend to think it's because he meant what he said, that an individual was coming to clear the way. That is what it's first fulfillment was, its second fulfillment was, and you show me why this will not happen a third time...

    The actual fulfillment is the explanation of the future fulfillment.
     
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    Utuna

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    Joshuastone7

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    :confused: Seriously, now you're not even trying. :p
     
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    Utuna

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    Later maybe... :)
     
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    I don't think ordinary anointed are able to take the role of Elijah. John the Baptist could, and he did speak with power. And he was little odd also, he lived very simple life, eating locusts and wild honey, living in the wilderness.
    Maybe he detested the wickedness in the society that he withdrew to live alone in the desert.
    And truly he avoided flattery speach.
    Elijah was neither a soft man, twice he requested fire to consume 50 soldiers with their commander.
     
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    Joshuastone7

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    Very true, and to think all of the anointed would have this role as Elijah just relegates the prophecy to a metaphor with no substance, because some will very likely have no role in the end at all.
     
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    Utuna

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    Jan,

    Those words quoted below are what matters to us all, no matter what might happen, in the end :) :

    1 Samuel 1:19-28

    Considering the low level of spiritual life in Eli and the wicked ways of his sons, it took a great deal of faith for Elkanah and Hannah to leave their innocent son in their care. But the Lord was with Samuel and would preserve him from the pollution around him. Just as God protected Joseph in Egypt, so He would protect Samuel in Shiloh, and so He can protect our children and grandchildren in this present evil world. Judgment was coming to Eli and his family, but God would have Samuel prepared to guide the nation and move them into the next stage of their development.

    The story thus far makes it clear that the life and future of a nation depends on the character of the home, and the character of the home depends on the spiritual life of the parents. An African proverb says, "The ruin of a nation begins in the homes of its people," and even Confucius taught, "The strength of a nation is derived from the integrity of its homes." Eli and his sons had "religious" homes that were godless, but Elkanah and Hannah had a godly home that honored the Lord, and they gave Him their best. The future hope of the people of Israel rested with that young lad in the tabernacle learning to serve the Lord. Never underestimate the power of the home or the power of a little child dedicated to God.



    (from The Bible Exposition Commentary: Old Testament ©
    2001-2004 by Warren W. Wiersbe. All rights reserved.)

     
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    Joshuastone7

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    Sure, everyone who has faith can have works, you don't even need to be born of spirit for that, however coming in the spirit of Elijah involves very specific instructions.

    Mth 17:10-12 "However, the disciples put the question to him: “Why, then, do the scribes say that E·li′jah must come first?†In reply he said: “E·li′jah is indeed coming and will restore all things. However, I say to you that E·li′jah has already come, and they did not recognize him but did whatever they wanted with him."

    Here in this scripture above we see Jesus describing two fulfillment's of Elijah (singular). One in the time of the end, and one in John. Just speaking of this one occurrence, do you see Jesus speaking of a group of people? Jesus speaks of the first Elijah as an individual, and as well he speaks of the second Elijah in the time of the end as an individual. Pretty cut and dry...

    Even if someone wants to claim "two" means thousands (even though there is no connection of two meaning anything other then two) then when you take one away, how many do you have? 2-1=1 right? So what happens when you cut a group in half, only half of that group comes in the spirit of Elijah? Huh???

    Joh 1:19-21 "This is the witness John gave when the Jews sent priests and Levites from Jerusalem to ask him: “Who are you?†And he admitted it and did not deny it, saying: “I am not the Christ.†And they asked him: “What, then? Are you E·li′jah?†He replied: “I am not.†“Are you the Prophet?†And he answered: “No!â€"

    Why did John deny being Elijah? Because he knew they were asking about the one before the time of the end, the final full realization of Elijah, the prophet.

    John did however know he was the promised messenger in the time of the Christ when quoting Ish 40,3; "A voice of one calling out in the wilderness:“Clear up the way of Jehovah! Make a straight highway through the desert for our God." and here was Johns comment; "He said: I am a voice of someone crying out in the wilderness, ‘Make the way of Jehovah straight,’ just as Isaiah the prophet said.†(John 1:23)

    So perfectly described are the first two examples of Elijah's work, who could say the fulfillment wouldn't be exactly the same in the time of the end? With such glaring evidence that Elijah is spoken of as an individual in the original text over and over and literally two fulfillment's that have already past of Elijah were individual human males, how could anyone deny the facts?

    John knew that they were asking about an individual to show up in the time of the end in the spirit of Elijah and would be "the" prophet. It would seem everyone in scripture believed this one was an individual except you.

    What is Elijah to do? Prepare a people for Jehovah, how can he prepare himself? That makes no sense...

    Luk 1:17 "Also, he will go ahead of him with E·li′jah’s spirit and power, to turn back the hearts of fathers to children and the disobedient ones to the practical wisdom of righteous ones, in order to get ready for Jehovah a prepared people.â€

    I could literally quote scripture after scripture showing there is no way these two can be a group, let alone you take one away then your left with one. So half of an "Elijah class" is to prepare the other half? Huh? That makes no sense either!

    Let's just recap just a few examples of how ridiculous a multiple group is.

    Two witnesses dead for 3.5 days. These days cannot be connected to the 3.5 years or any other time period then the literal 3.5 days. How are 144,000 individuals dead for only 3.5 days?

    Joshua and Zerubbabel are described as individuals. There is no way to connect these two to any group and are clearly spoken of as human individuals in the time of the end.

    Elijah is clearly a single human individual the first time, the second time, and as well the third time.

    So few subjects are so flat out obvious in scripture I just don't understand why some hang on to erroneous ideas. There has still yet to be one shred of evidence presented that any of these individuals represent a group. Not one single verifiable example of Moses/Elijah, Joshua/Zerubbabel, two witnesses being anything more then two individual humans just as they have always been.
     
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    Utuna

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    Jan,

    What I meant in my previous post is that we must define what an ordinary anointed is and that we must keep having faith and hope that the anointed ones will be given what they need, regardless what they think they are on human grounds. With God's spirit, nothing is impossible, even to a little child. They were all anointed back then in the first century and yet, many weren't spiritual savvy... to say the least ! It's no wonder the same occurs these days. If someone nowadays had an incredible knowledge and spiritual understanding to such an extent as being on a par with the apostles or even Timothy, for example, it'd be obvious for all to see. It's clear that the GB doesn't have them. The anointed ones are only distinguished by their personal spirituality, intelligence, knowledge and qualities. The "binder" that keeps missing so far, compared with what happened to the first century Christians, is very deep spiritual understanding that only a real out-pouring of holy spirit can give (I'm obviously here talking about the real Mc Coy, not about the amount of holy spirit each of us already receive through our daily prayers).

    Both Elijah and John were types of what would take place during the time of the end.

    Please read : "However, when they deliver YOU up, do not become anxious about how or what YOU are to speak; for what YOU are to speak will be given YOU in that hour; for the ones speaking are not just YOU, but it is the spirit of YOUR Father that speaks by YOU." - Mat. 10:19-20

    "Therefore settle it in YOUR hearts not to rehearse beforehand how to make YOUR defense, for I will give YOU a mouth and wisdom, which all YOUR opposers together will not be able to resist or dispute." - Luke 21:14-15

    "Now Stephen, full of graciousness and power, was performing great portents and signs among the people. But certain men rose up of those from the so-called Synagogue of the Freedmen, and of the Cy·re′ni·ans and Alexandrians and of those from Ci·li′cia and Asia, to dispute with Stephen; and yet they could not hold their own against the wisdom and the spirit with which he was speaking." - Acts 6:8-10

    What happened to the first century Christians was also a type of what would happen to their anointed brothers during the last days. Holy Spirit will then give them the power and spiritual intelligence to prove the false gods wrong, to condemn the false prophets, to stand before kings in order to give them a powerful witness and to lead a people (themselves and the GC) out of "Egypt" with signs and wonders to that end.

    I believe that we can't compare how the anointed ones are now and how they'll be when they receive God's holy spirit as Jesus promised.
     
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    Joshuastone7

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    When did the pouring out of holy spirit become the messenger coming in the spirit of Elijah? Are you trying to say that this single messenger coming like Elijah is the spirit being poured out on all of Gods people? Brother, you have thought about this right? Number one and most glaring is the fact that the spirit is poured out on the sons and servants, on Jerusalem and Judah, that means on Christs brothers and those in the kingdom on earth.

    Acts 2:17,18 "And in the last days,â€￾ God says, “I will pour out some of my spirit on every sort of flesh, and your sons and your daughters will prophesy and your young men will see visions and your old men will dream dreams, and even on my male slaves and on my female slaves I will pour out some of my spirit in those days, and they will prophesy."

    Zech 12:10 “I will pour out on the house of David and on the inhabitants of Jerusalem the spirit of favor and supplication, and they will look to the one whom they pierced,"

    John the Baptist coming like Elijah had absolutely nothing to do with the spirit being poured out. It wasn't even around the same time, and doesn't match the chronology at all. Elijah came three and a half years or more before the holy spirit was poured out.

    I certainly hope you reconsider this connection you just tried to make. The holy spirit being poured out on those who are to rule with Christ and on those who will live on earth has absolutely nothing to do with the messenger coming in the spirit of Elijah.

    Now your just grabbing at straws, in no way is that connection scriptural.
     
  19. Hi All:

    Sit down Joshua as I am about to agree with you on this. The pouring out of Holy Spirit that will happen in the "last days" (which has not happened yet, contrary to the official line of the WT) is a totally different subject than the coming of the one in the "spirit of Elijah". John the Baptist was that one in Jesus' day that fulfilled that role, and this had nothing to do with either the Apostles or other first Century Christians receiving Holy Spirit, not to mention John was long dead when Pentecost occurred. As far as the two Witnesses are, I happen to believe they will be two individuals as well. With that being said, hindsight is cerainly twenty/twenty and we will all know in a very short while, I think.

    frank
     
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    Hi Utuna,
    Yes you are right that all anointed christians have the possibility to be lead by holy spirit daily and to give excellent witness about God and Jesus.

    But that does not exclude different assignments, just as it was in the first century.


    4 Now there are varieties of gifts, but there is the same spirit; 5 and there are varieties of ministries, and yet there is the same Lord; 1Cor 12:4,5
     

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