Hello all! Much love to my e-JW family. In my research, I had a question I though you all could clarify.

Is there evidence to support that the "man of lawlessness" and "disgusting thing" are separate or one in the same?

I ask, because I recognize that these prophetic figures play a major role in the near future. I am well aware of the warning scripture: "Therefore, when you catch sight of the disgusting thing that causes desolation, as spoken about by Daniel the prophet, standing in a holy place (let the reader use discernment), then let those in Judea begin fleeing to the mountains" (Matthew 24:15,16).

Currently, I speculate that the disgusting thing will be the 8th king or the United Nations. I've often believed that the MOL will work with the disgusting thing to achieve it purpose. I've heard several JWs online suggest the MOL is the King of the North. I guess I am still quite confused.

I am still trying hard to "connect the dots" on these prophecies, and I understand that they will not be fully understand until after they've occurred. Still, I am trying to discern the things for my personal vigilance. One thing's for sure...when I see that disgusting thing I will be fleeing!

 

Well the KotN can't be the MoL because he is composite and he had already existed within the congregations at the time 2 thess 2 was written. The KotN has yet to make an appearance (as in clearly identified, the country exists today, we just don't know whom, some speculate the KotN is actually the United Nations, which is the disgusting thing).

This is from ewatchman's site, maybe you'll find it interesting, I am not saying I agree or disagree with him, it is just an interesting read:

In short, the disgusting thing will stand in a holy place when the present system collapses and is replaced by a tyrannical world government, supported initially by organized religion, and the work of Jehovah’s Witnesses is crushed. Whatever remains of the Watchtower then will be subservient to Satan’s kingdom.

https://e-watchman.com/disgusting-thing-causes-desolation/

and

https://e-watchman.com/the-disgusting-thing-that-causes-desolation/

Jesus and Jehovah are usually given numerous titles and names yes, is an apostate not also an antichrist? Is it far fetched to conclude the entity that is the King of the North is also the disgusting thing, just referred to with a different name?

 

Based on that Judas/MOL parallel, could it be speculated that the modern Judas/MOL makes a secret deal with the KOTN that sells the org down the river?

 

It's all speculation, but I wonder if this has any connection to the GB and the org becoming a NGO with the UN (KOTN?). Or maybe not yet the "Judas" betrayal yet but shades of things to come. I have gotten the impression in recent years that there's been a softening of the message by the GB to appease world leaders in JW literature. I recall a WT lesson talking at length about how most world leaders have good intentions...I thought that was an odd thought to emphasize.

 

Highly interesting.

 

Didn't that happen already lol? I mean if you think about the billions in donations and the overlapping generations doctrine which was created to avoid another 1975 fiasco. Seems like they have already sold out.

JW #s would drop by half overnight if news came out that 1914 was a huge hoax, thus losing half the profits they enjoy now.

 

You will have a field day with Robert King's research into that very thing you are talking about, as it turns out, they make those claims because it was required by UN.

read this, it speaks in detail why the watchtower has had to make statements such as "they have good intentions":

http://jehovah-is-king.com/strange-bedfellows/

 

I’m a bit late in this discussion. I haven’t read all of the comments but, I see references to comments by E-Watchman and the Watchtower. The question raised by marshroanoke was; “Man of lawlessness” and “disgusting thing”? One in the same or separate entities?

Let’s look at the words first. The NWT reads “Therefore, when you catch sight of the disgusting thing that causes desolation, as spoken about by Daniel the prophet, standing in a holy place (let the reader use discernment),” (Mt 24:15) which translates the Greek word bdelugma (bdel'-oog-mah) meaning;
a foul thing, a detestable thing
a. of idols and things pertaining to idolatry.
A form of the word bdelusso, from bdeo (to stink)

1. to render foul, to cause to be abhorred
2. abominable
3. to turn one's self away from on account of the stench
4. metaph. to abhor, detest

It is not a person, but the results of actions that are detestable, stink, something foul.
Some scholars state: “The abomination of desolation is usually held to mean the encirclement of the Holy City by the Roman armies prior to its destruction. That the Christian might have the opportunity to flee after such a deployment as that might have appeared impossible, due to the encircling armies; but the army of Titus, commanded by Cestius Gallus, for some inexplicable reason, lifted the siege, providing the Christians a chance to escape. (Coffman Commentaries on the Old and New Testament)

Man of lawlessness: Greek anomos = godless men, lawless, lawless one, transgressors, without law, without the law

“to those who are without law, as without law, though not being without the law of God but under the law of Christ, so that I might win those who are without law.” ( 1 Co 9:21 NASB )

“Let no one in any way deceive you, for it will not come unless the apostasy comes first, and the man of lawlessness is revealed, the son of destruction,” ( 2 Th 2:3 NASB ) Greek = anomia (an-om-ee'-ah)

“Then that lawless one will be revealed whom the Lord will slay with the breath of His mouth and bring to an end by the appearance of His coming;” ( 2 Th 2:8 NASB )

“realizing the fact that law is not made for a righteous person, but for those who are lawless and rebellious, for the ungodly and sinners, for the unholy and profane, for those who kill their fathers or mothers, for murderers” ( 1 Ti 1:9 NASB )

These scriptures refer to persons, not a single person or man. These persons are without the laws of Jehovah, or who don't follow the teachings of Jesus. So, to answer the question; No, the man of lawlessness is not the same as abomination of desolation, or disgusting thing. Similar in actions but not the same. These lawlessness persons are those who cause problems within the congregation. Stumbling blocks who cause desention and arguments. These individuals were mentioned by Paul and the other apostles. So, they had already taken a place within the congregations prior to the deaths of Paul, Peter, John, etc. These are the ones who brought in the false teachings.

 

I don't know anything about the detestable thing, honestly, but couldn't an argument be made that the entity of the watchtower is the disgusting thing? Everything it does from tv.jw.org, bethel, the magazines, the elder/gb/ms/co structure, etc.? There is a form of idolatry in all of these things mentioned.

 

What you say is a possibility. But, in that sense, it could or would apply to any group or religious organization. When we look at the different situations where this word is used in the Hebrew/Aramaic in the books of the prophets, it deals with things that are detestable to Jehovah. The word translated as abominable, detestable, filth, is shiqquwts (shik-koots).

The definition given is: 1. detestable thing or idol, abominable thing, abomination, idol, detested thing.

In all occurrences of this subject, it deals with false worship and what is detestable to Jehovah God. “Then said I unto them, Cast ye away every man the abominations of his eyes, and defile not yourselves with the idols of Egypt: I am Jehovah your God. But they rebelled against me, and would not hearken unto me: they did not every man cast away the abominations of their eyes, neither did they forsake the idols of Egypt: then I said, I will pour out my fury upon them to accomplish my anger against them in the midst of the land of Egypt.” ( Ezek 20:7-8 DNKJV )

In Daniel, the term is used in describing a future event. Most bible scholars apply this to the destruction of the temple in about 70 CE. “And arms will stand up, proceeding from him; and they will profane the sanctuary, the fortress, and remove the constant feature. ‘And they will put in place the disgusting thing that causes desolation.’” (Dan 11:31 NWT)

“However Christ in Matt. 24:15,16 (and related passages) mentioned another abomination of desolation that would come into the Holy Place, making that a signal for the Christians living at that time to flee from the City of Jerusalem, which they did, saving their lives by their flight to Pella, during the final destruction of Jerusalem in A.D. 70. Thus this abomination of desolation was associated with the end of the first Israel in the destruction of their nation, their worship, and their status as God's chosen people.” (Coffman Commentaries on the Old and New Testament)

There is also an implied application of this prophesy to a future event to take place with the return of Jesus Christ. As to future events we will have to wait and see. That is if we are still around to see it.

 

I don't know the definitive answer to this question - but the scriptures make clear that it does not turn out well for any of them. So keeping safe distance from them seems like a spiritual course of wisdom.

 

Wow

 

I’ve often thought about this statement by Jesus. “However, when the Son of Man comes, will He find faith on the earth?” ( Lu 18:8 NASB )

These words are variously understood, but there seems to be a definite foretelling of the decline of faith before the end. Trench thought that: We have other grounds for believing that the church, at that last moment, will be reduced to a little remnant; yet the point is here, not that the faithful will be few, but that the faith even of the faithful will have almost failed. Wesley saw this as a statement that, when Jesus shall appear, “how few true believers will be found on earth.” (Coffman Commentaries on the Old and New Testament)

 

That goes against all scripture....it is a dangerous and misleading statement...Joshua and Kaleb didn't remove themselves from the camp..they separated themselves spiritually and figurarivley from this making and worshiping the golden calf.....NO DIFFERENT than today....you don't have to be a bible scholar or and intellectual to see the patterns laid out in the past...Anna the prophetess stayed at the temple along with Simeon and was rewarded greatly for such strong loyal endurance...Jesus and the apostles taught at the temple until Jehovah disciplined it......and removed / destroyed it.
You say the scriptures say that it does not turn out well for any of them BTJ?...Huh!!!!....rubbish !!!!!...josh just showed you a third will come thru the fire...who said it was going to be easy....those that stay are going thru the fire and being refined like the Gold of Ophir....do t listen to these words of his break of walls.....I have read BTJ own posts from another site where he himself has said it is their responsibility to come on these sites/forums to save us from the WT...and our meetings....so be careful brother !!!

Show your faith by waiting for Jesus to come down from the mountain....if so what I'df some want to make a golden calf with in our camp and follow the second man in charge....let them...just stand back from them..but DONT LEAVE THE CAMP.....Joshua and Kaleb had the brains and integrity to do it...so can you and I and many....yet many will not survive the discipline.....you do not have to be part of them...you can be marked with the inkhorn...whilst still amongst his own people..corrupt or not...
Remember we have a responsibility to all of our brothers and sisters..even those who may fall....did not Jesus wash even Judas's feet!!!!!!
We need to be repeated to serve them I. The good times and the bad times...not flee into the wilderness...which show a immense lack of faith in Jehovah and how he works.....
Jehovah is EXPECTING something from us that have been shown a new understanding...we may need to wash the feet of even those who have betrayed us....after all...can you or I read their hearts...no....we have a big work ahead of us...you won't be able to do that if you flee into the wilderness...and leave his poor sheep who are scared and thrown about...he wants us here for a very real purpose...hang in there brother !!!!,