No One Knows the Day Or Hour

Discussion in 'Bible Prophecy' started by Joshuastone7, Dec 10, 2017.

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    Joshuastone7

    Joshuastone7 Administrator Staff Member

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    I once again had a conversation with someone about this subject of knowing the day and hour, so I thought I would open a new thread. I will start by including our conversation here;

    Their email: "Ac 1:7 He said to them: “It does not belong to you to know the times or seasons that the Father has placed in his own jurisdiction.” Mt 24:44 On this account, you too prove yourselves ready, because the Son of man is coming at an hour that you do not think to be it. Mt 24:36 “Concerning that day and hour nobody knows, neither the angels of the heavens nor the Son, but only the Father.” Da 8:17 So he came near to where I was standing, but when he came I was so terrified that I fell facedown. He said to me: “Understand, O son of man, that the vision is for the time of the end.” Da 12:4,9 “As for you, Daniel, keep the words secret, and seal up the book until the time of the end. Many will rove about, and the true knowledge will become abundant.” ... 9 Then he said: “Go, Daniel, because the words are to be kept secret and sealed up until the time of the end.”

    -----------------------

    And then my response; "Let me start by saying I appreciate anyone continuing to serve Jehovah, and we are brothers regardless if we agree or disagree on the details of scripture. May Jehovah's Spirit continue to guide you...

    With that said;

    Who was Jesus speaking to with this statement?

    Ac 1:7 "He said to them: “It does not belong to you to know the times or seasons that the Father has placed in his own jurisdiction.”

    He was speaking to the men before him, was he not? It was their responsibility to recognize the time in which they lived in, not our day, that is our responsibility;

    Luk 12:56 "Hypocrites, you know how to examine the appearance of earth and sky, but why do you not know how to examine this particular time?"

    Who would it be that would not be expecting him?

    Mth 24:44 "On this account, you too prove yourselves ready, because the Son of man is coming at an hour that you do not think to be it."

    Would it be the wise virgins, or the unwise? Would Jesus come unexpected on those keeping watch, or those who were not watching? Should the Jews have understood the 70 year prophecy, and should have they been on the watch in "their time" in order to know when the Messiah was to arrive? Yes, and in fact many understood, including the elite at the temple who calculated Jesus age by the books of the prophets.

    Paul explained that the son of man coming as a thief was directed at the wicked, because he said that Jesus would NOT come as a thief to the faithful;

    1Th 5:4 "But you, brothers, you are not in darkness, so that the day should overtake you as it would thieves, for you are all sons of light and sons of day. We belong neither to night nor to darkness."

    You quoted Jesus words here;

    Mt 24:36 “Concerning that day and hour nobody knows, neither the angels of the heavens nor the Son, but only the Father."

    Do you know what Jesus meant by "that day and hour no one knows"? His disciples would have... He was talking about the fulfillment of Rosh Hashanah, that "day no one knew the day or hour". It was a two day festival when two witnesses would spot the new moon. They were never sure which of the two days it would be, and weather could be a factor as well, hence the two days.

    Granted, we do not know when that faithful Rosh Hashanah will be fulfilled, and I do not claim to know when the end begins, all I do know is when the chronology of Daniel lines up with the lunar calendar for the next one hundred years. 2018 is the next time the chronology lines up, then 2029 and then 2032. I don't know when the end will begin, but my gifts from God are in these matters...

    You quoted;

    Dan 12:9 "Go, Daniel, because the words are to be kept secret and sealed up until the time of the end.”

    This is very true, the chronology of Daniel will not be fulfilled until the end begins, however Jehovah will have his prophets before the end that will be prepared, and have full knowledge of what is to come, before it happens.

    Amos 3:7 "For the Sovereign Lord Jehovah will not do a thing Unless he has revealed his confidential matter to his servants the prophets."

    With all Christian love my dear friend..."
     
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    Joshuastone7

    Joshuastone7 Administrator Staff Member

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    Here, I would like to explore this subject further, for one cannot base an understanding on a single scripture, but one examines all scripture in order to determine it's meaning.

    Someone might say to me, "The Lord will come as a thief in the night." Sure, but who was he speaking too? According to Rev 3:3 he wasn't talking about the faithful.

    Rev 3:3 "So remember what you have received and heard; and keep it, and repent Therefore if you do not wake up, I will come like a thief, and you will not know at what hour I will come to you."

    If we follow Jehovah's direction, that day will not come upon us as a surprise.

    Luk 21:34 “But pay attention to yourselves that your hearts never become weighed down with overeating and heavy drinking and anxieties of life, and suddenly that day be instantly upon you as a snare. For it will come upon all those dwelling on the face of the whole earth."

    The faithful will be expecting our Lord, and they will not be surprised by his coming.

    1Th 5:4 "But you aren't in the dark about these things, dear brothers and sisters, and you won't be surprised when the day of the Lord comes like a thief."

    So then our Lord coming as a thief is directed to the wicked, those who are not expecting him, for his faithful will be alert, waiting, and not surprised. The term "thief" is to denote the taking away of something, and that is taking away of these ones from the book of life.

    Some will say to me, "It does not belong to you to know the times and seasons.", quoting Acts 1:7, We are admonished to recognize the times in which we live in, so it was not the disciples job to worry about the end of days, but their time in which they lived. It is us that must recognize the time in which we live in and understand the "times and season" of the end. So quite the opposite, we are directed to understand when our Lord would return. so that day does not overtake us as a thief would.

    Luk 12:56 "Hypocrites, you know how to examine the appearance of earth and sky, but why do you not know how to examine this particular time?"

    Mth 16:2,3 "In reply he said to them: “When evening falls, you say, ‘It will be fair weather, for the sky is fire-red,’ and in the morning, ‘It will be wintry, rainy weather today, for the sky is fire-red but gloomy.’ You know how to interpret the appearance of the sky, but the signs of the times you cannot interpret."

    1Th 5:4 "But you, brothers, you are not in darkness, so that the day should overtake you as it would thieves,"

    To believe Jehovah would not have his prophets in the time of the end who understood when the Lord would return is not Bibically supported.

    Amos 3:7 "For the Sovereign Lord Jehovah will not do a thing Unless he has revealed his confidential matter to his servants the prophets."

    All love...
     
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    LoVE JEHoVAH

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    “You also, keep ready, because at an hour that you do not think likely, the Son of man is coming.” ~ Luke 12:40
     
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    Joshuastone7

    Joshuastone7 Administrator Staff Member

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    Greetings brother...

    It helps to keep our Lords entire comments in mind, he wasn't saying the faithful would not know when he would arrive, he was saying that if they did not keep ready he would come when they did not expect. In his parable the householder would not be surprised if he kept watch, but if he did not keep watch the thief would come when he did not expect.

    "Happy are those slaves whom the master on coming finds watching! Truly I say to you, he will dress himself for service and have them recline at the table and will come alongside and minister to them. And if he comes in the second watch, even if in the third, and finds them ready, happy are they! But know this, if the householder had known at what hour the thief would come, he would not have let his house be broken into. You also, keep ready, because at an hour that you do not think likely, the Son of man is coming.” Luk 37-40

    Jesus comes unexpected as a thief only to those not watching. If they do not watch, then the thief comes at an hour when they least expect, but it will not be a surprise to those who know "the times and seasons" he is coming and keep watch. The times and seasons are the Jewish holidays yet to be fulfilled in our day. The Elders of Jesus day were admonished to know the times and seasons of their day, just as we are to know of ours.

    Rev 3:3 "So remember what you have received and heard; and keep it, and repent Therefore if you do not wake up, I will come like a thief, and you will not know at what hour I will come to you."

    The faithful watch and are not surprised, He is a surprise to those who are not ready and watching. This is the context of our Lords words.
     
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    LoVE JEHoVAH

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    my understanding is that we do not know the day and hour when he will arive but if we keep watching faithfully then we will know the moment he does arive, because we kept watching faithfully like he said to do, unlike those not keeping watch. if i already know the day and hour then theres no point in keeping watch. i keep on the watch therefore because i do not know likely the day nor hour but when he arives like a random thief then i will notice him, the thief, and he will not catch me by suprize
     
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    Joshuastone7

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    I know that's the common view, and the one I held once, but that's not actually what our Lord is saying, look at Rev 3:3 again;

    Rev 3:3 "So remember what you have received and heard; and keep it, and repent Therefore if you do not wake up, I will come like a thief, and you will not know at what hour I will come to you."

    He says "if you do not wake up, I will come as a thief". He comes as a thief to those not awake.

    His whole parable about the householder. It's all about the whole theme of prophecy brother, the trumpets fall on the faithful, and the bowls on the unfaithful.

    The coming as a thief is not a good thing, we don't want to be the ones he comes as a thief too, it means he takes away their salvation and they are part of what is destroyed;

    2 Pt 3:10 "But Jehovah’s day will come as a thief, in which the heavens will pass away with a roar, but the elements being intensely hot will be dissolved, and earth and the works in it will be exposed."

    No, we want to be awake so that he does not come upon us as a thief, but be fully aware of our times and seasons. Do you remember Jesus scolding the Elders for not knowing their "times and season" but yet knew how to recognize the weather? (Mth 16:3)
     
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    my understanding is he does say that he is coming as a thief, that is true, in respect a unknown hour, not a likely hour we may think and to those asleep. so by keeping awake we will then know what hour he comes as a thief but only at that hour he arives and so then it will no longer be as a thief to the one awake at that hour but only to those asleep. by saying 2018, or even a past 1914 date like the Watchtower, we have no resson to keep watch any other time
     
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    Joshuastone7

    Joshuastone7 Administrator Staff Member

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    Okay, let me try another way...

    Should the elders in Jesus day have known the exact year Jesus was coming? Should they have known by the 70 year prophecy? Why did Jesus tell them they knew how to judge the weather, but not the times they lived in? So was he saying they should have known the times and seasons?

    Then ask yourself why he told his disciples it was not theirs to know the times and seasons? Why would Jesus tell the elders they should have known the times and seasons, but yet told his disciples that it didn't belong to them to know the times and seasons?

    Can you explain that with your current understanding?
     
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    Joshuastone7

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    Let me share another little tidbit with you...

    As I have said, Jesus words here represent the fulfillment of Rosh Hashanah: "The day and hour no one knows."

    In the same manner his words: "times and seasons" represent all the remaining Jewish holidays yet to be fulfilled.

    Feasts in Hebrew (moadim) literally means "appointed times." And if we read of the establishment of these holidays you will find that the feasts were to be proclaimed "in their seasons".

    Lev 23:4 "These are the feasts of the LORD, even holy convocations, which ye shall proclaim in their seasons." (KJV)

    The holidays were the "seasonal festivals".

    Lev 23:1 "Jehovah continued speaking to Moses, saying: “Speak to the Israelites and tell them, ‘The seasonal festivals of Jehovah that you should proclaim are holy conventions. These are my seasonal festivals:"

    And these "seasonal festivals" were to be proclaimed at the "times appointed":

    Lev 23:4 "These are the seasonal festivals of Jehovah, holy conventions that you should proclaim at the times appointed for them:"

    The "appointed times" of the end, and the fulfillment of "times and seasons" are the fulfillment of the remaining Jewish holidays.
     
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    LoVE JEHoVAH

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    so i dont need to bother keeping on the watch until Sep 2018? that doesnt sound right
     
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    Joshuastone7

    Joshuastone7 Administrator Staff Member

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    That is exactly what we are doing, is keeping watch... The householder kept on the watch so that the thief did not brake into his house. We don't want the thief to come into our house, we want our Lord to knock, he brakes into the homes that are not watching, to destroy and remove.

    Besides, this isn't everyone's work, I just happen to believe it's my responsibility.

    And I'm not saying the end will begin in 2018, I only say that it is one of the next times it can.
     
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    LoVE JEHoVAH

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    but no need to watch until September 2018 cause the thief wont be here till then so meanwhile relax

    cant Jehovah begin the end when he wants or is he restricted by dates?

    (i'll let you know when im convinced)
     
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    Joshuastone7

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    Jehovah is restricted by dates...

    Hab 2:3 "For the vision is yet for its appointed time, And it is rushing toward its end, and it will not lie."

    Jehovah set up his "appointed times" in the feasts, and has set his end day long ago. He knew what events would occur in the end, and set up his holidays in order for the prophets in the end to be prepared for what is to come. Jehovah has restricted himself to his own timetable.

    "Feast" in Hebrew means (moade), meaning "appointed times".

    Brother, we must realize that prophecy tells us it took two witnesses to spot the new moon, and to declare the new year. So in fact it's likely that these two and only a handful of their brothers will know that the end has even begun. So to billions of people on the planet, the beginning of the end and the completion of Rosh Hashanah will mainly go unnoticed.

    Now however our Lords return in the clouds will be seen by all, and is what our Lord speaks of as coming as a thief. The beginning of the end is not what Jesus is speaking of, it's only his prophets that will recognize the start of the clock, and Jesus comes as a thief years after the start of the end.
     
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    LoVE JEHoVAH

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    dont the days get cut short? when in the timeline do the days get cut? Matt 19:26
     
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    Those days are cut short the moment Jesus appears in the clouds. There is no timeline mentioned that was set, and then shortened. Jesus simply meant that unless God ends this system of things when he does, no flesh would survive.
     
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    LoVE JEHoVAH

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    thats been a question. does cut short days mean days from the times & seasons that make a timeline or just cut short the events within the set time of days? the scripture says "those days"
     
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    Sure, those days these things will be occurring in. There is no associated time frame along with our Lord's words, therefore they were made in general of the days he was speaking of.
     
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    idk, doesnt make sense to me
     
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    Joshuastone7

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    Can you connect his statement to an exact day count?
     
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    LoVE JEHoVAH

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    "those days" of tribulation correlate along the 2,300 days so cutting the days would shorten the 2,300 days
     

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