Peace and Security/Christs Return/Dead in Christ Resurrected/Raised

Discussion in 'Bible Prophecy' started by Joshuastone7, Nov 18, 2015.

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    Joshuastone7

    Joshuastone7 Administrator Staff Member

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    Okay, I've said it many times before, you cannot know what each event in prophecy is without knowing which event comes before or after another...

    Let's talk about the resurrection of Christs brothers. All of Christs brothers are not all resurrected from death at the same time. However, they all are raised to heaven at the same time. In fact the dead in Christ are resurrected here to earth just like Jesus was before ascending to heaven. At that same moment those living of Christs brothers will be transfigured like Stephen, Jesus and Moses, but they will still be human. Then 40 days later they will all be raised to heaven when Christ comes in the clouds. (This is the reason for all of the 40's in scripture.) Jesus resurrection and ascension is the model for Christs brothers in the time of the end.

    The dead in Christ are resurrected the moment Jesus is enthroned and as well the same time Christs brothers receive the Holy Spirit. Jesus does not come in the clouds until 40 days later, at which point all of the 144k will be raised to heaven.

    Rev 14:13 "And I heard a voice out of heaven say, “Write: Happy are the dead who die in union with the Lord from this time onward. Yes, says the spirit, let them rest from their labors, for the things they did go right with them."

    You will note that this scripture above states that "anyone who dies in union with the Lord from this point on let them rest". Note that this is after the 144k are seen standing on Mount Zion in the same chapter. This is also after Babylon falls just a few verses before. This scripture is telling us that some of Christs brothers (the 144k), are still going to die after this point.

    Look what Jehovah says to the dead who are resurrected in union with Christ.

    Rev 6:11 "And a white robe was given to each of them, and they were told to rest a little while longer, until the number was filled of their fellow slaves and their brothers who were about to be killed as they had been."

    After those who were dead in Christ are resurrected they are told to wait until their brothers who were about to be killed just as they were. So those alive of Christs brothers who are alive when the white robes are handed to the dead are still human when the dead in Christ are resurrected.

    This idea that some have about Rev 6:11 and the white robes handed out not being the moment they are resurrected is completely wrong, and is only an attempt to figure out how their brothers can be killed after the dead in Christ are resurrected. Well I'm here to tell you that the two events of the resurrection and the being raised to heaven are not the same moment.

    1Th 4:15 "For this is what we tell you by Jehovah's word, that we the living who survive to the presence of the Lord will in no way precede those who have fallen asleep in death;"

    As you see here Jehovah tells us that Christs brothers who are alive do not precede those who have fallen asleep. Not because Paul was saying all Christs brothers are resurrected at the same time, but that those who have fallen asleep in death precede those who are alive in the time of the end into their heavenly bodies. It's very simple, the dead in Christ will be resurrected before those who are living, because some of those who are living will still die, then all Christs brothers who are living will have to die when they meet the Lord in the air and take on their spirit bodies.

    1Th 4:16 "because the Lord himself will descend from heaven with a commanding call, with an archangel's voice and with God's trumpet, and those who are dead in union with Christ will rise first."

    Yes, those who are dead in Christ are resurrected before those in union with Christ who are still alive. This is exactly what it's saying. The Lord descending form heaven with a commanding call is not the moment Christ comes in the clouds. The commanding call comes before Babylon is destroyed because we see the 144k on Mount Zion in Rev 14, and we know some of those in union with Christ (Christs brothers) will be killed after Babylon falls as is stated in Rev 14.

    Now what happens to those alive? They are changed...

    1Cor 15:51,52 "Look! I tell you a sacred secret: We will not all fall asleep in death, but we will all be changed, in a moment, in the blink of an eye, during the last trumpet. For the trumpet will sound, and the dead will be raised up incorruptible, and we will be changed."

    So those alive will be "changed", not resurrected, not raised, but changed. In order to inherit the heavenly kingdom one must die, and this "changing" is not death, because some will still die after this. So then the two events that happen at the last trumpet are the dead in Christ putting on immortality (resurrected), and those "alive" will be changed (transfigured). Those alive can not put on immortality until after they die, and when the dead in Christ are resurrected, these ones are still alive as humans, and again some will still die. It's not till later that those alive will join those resurrected together to meet the Lord in the air when he comes in the clouds. The commanding call at the last trumpet is not Christ coming in the clouds.

    1Th 4:17 "with an archangel's voice and with God's trumpet, and those who are dead in union with Christ will rise first. Afterward we the living who are surviving will, together with them, be caught away in clouds to meet the Lord in the air; and thus we will always be with the Lord."

    So this being "changed" is simply what occurred to Moses, Stephen and Jesus, they will be transfigured when Christ is enthroned and this is the "reports" that the 8th king will hear out of the north in Dan 11.

    Dan 11:44 "But reports out of the east and out of the north will disturb him, and he will go out in a great rage to annihilate and to devote many to destruction."

    Below is the moment the Holy Spirit is poured out and Christs brother still human are transfigured;

    Joel 2:29 "After that I will pour out my spirit on every sort of flesh,"

    And you will notice this all occurs before the "day of Jehovah" for what we read next in Joel 2.

    Joel 2:30,31 "And I will give wonders in the heavens and on the earth, Blood and fire and columns of smoke. The sun will be turned into darkness and the moon into blood Before the coming of the great and awe-inspiring day of Jehovah."

    Therefore the "times and seasons" Jesus was speaking of was both the resurrection of the dead in Christ and them being raised to heaven when Christ comes in the clouds.

    The day of Jehovah is the moment Christ comes in the clouds to raise the 144k to heaven but 40 days before this is the last trumpet when the dead in Christ are resurrected and those alive will be transfigured but will still be human and will still be killed...

    Therefore the peace and security call comes just before the day of Jehovah. If the "times and seasons" pertains to when the dead in Christ are resurrected and then raised to heaven after some of their brothers also die, then the "peace and security" call comes just before the "day of Jehovah" when all of the 144k are raised to heaven when Jesus comes in the clouds at the beginning of Armageddon.

    Simply put the "peace and security" call comes during the 40 days between the moment Jesus is enthroned when Holy Spirit is poured out, and Jesus coming in the clouds.

    The other events to occur during this time are the two witnesses being killed, the message to all the earth of God's kingdom (Mth 24:14), Babylon going down and the disgusting thing being placed in the holy place...

    Now for my opinion, It is my opinion that since the great tribulation will last 10 days before Armageddon, it is during these ten days the disgusting thing is placed and the call for peace and security will come. Now sense this moment is the world thinking 'if they cut their cords' from Jehovah by killing Christs remaining brothers, then he will leave them alone, Jehovah will laugh at them and bring their destruction. It is quite likely that the destruction of Christs remaining brothers on earth will be the call on earth for peace and security against the alien invader (Christ) by removing his brothers from this earth themselves...

    Psm 2 "The kings of the earth take their stand And high officials gather together as one Against Jehovah and against his anointed one. They say: "Let us tear off their shackles And throw off their ropes!" The One enthroned in the heavens will laugh; Jehovah will scoff at them. At that time he will speak to them in his anger And terrify them in his burning anger, Saying: "I myself have installed my king On Zion, my holy mountain."
     
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    Joshuastone7

    Joshuastone7 Administrator Staff Member

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    Dan 11:40 "But reports out of the east and out of the north will disturb him."

    Equals,

    Dan 12:3 "And those having insight will shine as brightly as the expanse of heaven,"

    -----------------

    Dan 11:44,45 "and he will go out in a great rage to annihilate and to devote many to destruction. And he will plant his royal tents between the grand sea and the holy mountain of Decoration;"

    Equals,

    Dan 12:11 "and the disgusting thing that causes desolation has been put in place,"
     
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    apocalypse

    apocalypse Guest

    Problem with all that is, the GB is back to teaching that they will ascend into heaven in the same way Russell taught it. They have come full circle. Back to the beginning again.

    And e GB is one step away from donning white robes and marching to the top of Bethel's tallest building to await the Lord.
     
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    Firebird II

    Firebird II Guest

    Hi Earthbound,
    Such good wording by you, love the feeling of compassion thru you, as well as these ones who operate this site: Wallflower, Utuna. these ones make you feel comfortable, they are strict tho, but lenient to a degree, but, as I have recently re-joined this site I have seen awful treatment towards others who have tried to make a point (but not by these two),,,who relate to where they are coming from. You see E/B, there are various stages, from ones who relate to us here:
    1) Those who are in their anger stage.
    2) Those who are in their acknowledgement stage.
    3) Those who question Bible/WT stage.
    4) Those who question personal beliefs.
    5) Those whose question prophecy, etc..

    If you have been keeping up on these stages here, have you seen a pattern develop? I mean, people can't even get their 2-Cents in without having a certain jackass moderator here berating you for no good reason. Sure, he had to cancel out ones with radical views, I can dig that, (and after this I am out of here, ((thought you were gonna do the same m'Lady)) but you have to recognize and deal with a Scripture here, as mentioned roundabout, to me awhile back from Bro T: "Do not cause contention,,,", Certainly! Good advice! Because, what good is to come from talking with a brother, a brother who owns a website, who seems to enjoy cancelling out anyone he chooses. Some here have chosen to call him arrogant. I prefer Jackass myself. I mean, just look as his avatar. Depicting himself clothed by the Lord. Such arrogance. Conceited yeah,,,

    Wallflower, Bro T (sorry bro, had to say my piece, now I know why you stay away from these discussions), Utuna, you have a good Heart, don't stop messaging me. Thinking, please don't follow along with this "Joshua-Stone-7",,,a Christ-like anointed One? Hardly,,,
     
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    apocalypse

    apocalypse Guest

    You are basically sticking to the Watchtower and adding your own twist bro. There is no 'peace & security' business.
     
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    Joshuastone7

    Joshuastone7 Administrator Staff Member

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    I stick with what scripture says. I agree with the WTS that Jesus was created, does that mean I'm sticking with the Watchtower? I believe the earth will stand for ever and not be destroyed, does that mean I stick with the societies interpretation?

    I don't know what you mean there is no peace and security business...
     
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    belongingtojah

    belongingtojah Member

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    Hi Joshua,

    It is obvious to me that you believe in the living words of truth of of the bible. We all were trained to have respect for the word of truth by the watchtower society. That is a good thing. When we believe and accepted that as true we were being guided in the right direction.

    As we accept the scriptures we realized that it is important to test every inspired expression and when we realized that some of the teachings were not in line with scripture we still hold to the fact that Jehovah's word is the final say.

    Conundrum time. For myself I realized that trusting Jehovah and not men is very important.

    The watchtower organization was a important part of my life and was a part of my of my spiritual journey. They are not the end of the journey only a part of it.

    Faithfullness and believing that the word is the most important thing and letting the anointing spirit teach me rather than listen to these men as the final say has made me appreciate God's word even more.

    So rather than be hateful toward them I am appreciative for the help in the right direction.

    I now look to Jesus and Jehovah and even though the brothers and sisters in this area treat me with contempt I am still appreciative for what got me where I am now in understanding.

    There is terrible trouble in the future for the watchtower organization because of some of the things that they have done to Jesus brothers and Yet if they would repent and look to Jehovah then perhaps there could be mercy and a repairing of the wrongs.

    We shall see - even though Jehovah's ways are toward judgement for unrepentant ones He still holds his hand out with the possibility of mercy.

    Have a blessed day brother.

    Joe
     
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    Joshuastone7

    Joshuastone7 Administrator Staff Member

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    I could not have spoken any clearer brother, you and I are in complete agreement.

    I studied with some of the most intelligent brothers throughout the years. Only those in the hall that had the interest that I had, prophecy. Some went on to circuit work, district, etc... I took a decade to be baptized, for I had a long slog out of this world, but I learned so much discipline throughout that time, and you said it correctly, what I learned was that the Bible was the final word. I was never taught to worship the GB, or to hold them any higher then any other man. Maybe this was the era I came in? I don't know, it was 90-00.

    When I found Roberts work in 08, the internet was to a point that I could search once again how the heaven high tree was connected to the fall of Jerusalem. Of course I was taught that, but I could never, ever find the connection. No matter how much I searched. Well finally after years I discovered there was no connection, and that's when I dove into Roberts work.

    But prophecy to me has always been a road on a path to a destination. There's only one road, and many take a wrong turn. In Chronology if you make one wrong turn, everything after is wrong, you are heading in the wrong direction. I found that moment with Robert too, and that was Dan 12:11. He didn't notice that the 1290 days was the period between the two events, they don't, and didn't occur on the same day.

    But anyway, your words hit my heart. We here are together by Christ Jesus work, and Jehovah's will! Those of us like you and I, are fighting our way through the traps of predators all around us, just trying to find our Father!

    Prophecy repeats;

    Ecc 3:15 "Whatever happens has already happened, and what is to come has already been; but the true God seeks what has been pursued."

    The events in the first century are mirrored in our day, we are Paul and the others waiting upon Jehovah to surround Jerusalem (WTS) with armies, and put an end to the suffering.......

    Rev 11:3 "But as for the courtyard that is outside the temple sanctuary, leave it out and do not measure it, because it has been given to the nations, and they will trample the holy city underfoot for 42 months."
     
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    apocalypse

    apocalypse Guest

    I know you don't. You didn't read what I posted. Why would I write it again?
     
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    Utuna

    Utuna Administrator

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    Please, because I'm asking you to....
     
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    apocalypse

    apocalypse Guest

    Utuna, are you a separate person from Joshuastone7 ...? You seem to be, because you said 'please'.

    It's just that you replied in stead of J7 and both handles are admin's... Almost seems like J7 made a login error.

    Ok. You said please anyway and I'll give the benefit of the doubt.

    Over at the post I made on "Peace and Security", http://www.e-jw.org/index.php?threads/peace-and-security.2004/ , I thought I was fairly clear, but I can appreciate that somebody could get lost in an internet discussion.

    If you would really like to understand my viewpoint, then please (now I said it) read that post slowly and look at the Bible. (A little 'divine help' never hurts.)

    • JW's are taught that soon there will be an announcement in the political sphere of this old world, and it will be the fulfillment of the supposed 'prophecy' at 1 Thess. 5:3
    • JW's know that they will not understand the announcement without clarification from HQ so they await "something to be written to (them)" (1 Thess 5:1) via the Watchtower
    • Paul however, said (if one reads that verse, instead of just skipping over it as JWs are instructed) "1 Now as for the times and the seasons, brothers, you need nothing to be written to you." rNWT
    • "How could that be?" JWs would ask... How indeed.
    • Paul explained "2 For you yourselves know very well that Jehovah’s day is coming exactly as a thief in the night.
    • A thief in the night comes without warning. Nothing can be written. Nohting WILL be written.
    • Jesus concurred. Matthew 24:36-43
    36 “Concerning that day and hour nobody knows, neither the angels of the heavens nor the Son, but only the Father.
    43 “But know one thing: If the householder had known in what watch* the thief was coming, he would have kept awake and not allowed his house to be broken into. rNWT

    Paul wasn't speaking of his own initiative. He learned well from the Master. Jesus likened His coming to "a thief in the night" for good reason, and there can be no warning of a thief in the night. That was the whole point of the illustration! To suggest otherwise undermines the illustration and renders it meaningless. When has a thief in the night ever given any indicators as to his arrival? It's ludicrous. And yet, that is the essence of the Watchtower's teaching.

    But some will go on, that the verses that follow, support the Watchtower's teaching. This is equally foolish. If one misunderstands the import of a few verses, does that qualify them to misunderstand the rest of the verses? The rest of the verses equally diminish the Watchtower's teaching to just so much blather.

    What Paul actually said;

    3 Whenever it is that they are saying, “Peace and security!” then sudden destruction is to be instantly on them, just like birth pains on a pregnant woman, and they will by no means escape.​

    Paul was not talking about a specific event. He reminded his listeners of the numerous times that they had heard ONE thing from their political powers and ANOTHER thing happened. He was, in fact, reminding them that what they hear from the political powers was MEANINGLESS. So they should stop looking there, and stop holding out for something "to be written to (them)" to explain what they hear from these political powers. It was MEANINGLESS.
     
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    Joshuastone7

    Joshuastone7 Administrator Staff Member

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    Do you have some particular hatred of me, or disdain of some kind? Have I harmed you in some manner?
     
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    apocalypse

    apocalypse Guest

    I will just cut and paste the rest from that other post and add a bit.

    Paul went on.

    4 But you, brothers, you are not in darkness, so that the day should overtake you as it would thieves, 5 for you are all sons of light and sons of day. We belong neither to night nor to darkness.​

    Paul DID NOT say here in verse 4 that Christians would, or would not, be taken over by thieves. He was finished with that illustration which he learned from Jesus.

    He DID say they would or would not be taken over by "the day"... and warned against being taken over in the same manner or way as the day would overtake thieves.

    Do not invert the words in your head.

    • In the illustration in verse 3, the thief was overtaking the householder, or sleepy Christians.
    • In verse 4 and 5 the "Day" is overtaking the thieves and the Christians, but not in the same way each.
    • The illustration in verse 4 and 5 is making a different point than the illustration in verse 3.

    The "day" will be a surprise to all, God loving Christians and thieves alike.

    But when it arrives, the thieves will feel different about it than would Christians.

    Illustration.

    If your employer shows up to inspect, he find some working, some sleeping. Those caught working are surprised, but happy. Those caught sleeping less happy.

    The boss overtook everyone. But Paul didn't want Christians to be taken over by it, "AS IT WOULD THIEVES" , like those are who sleep on the job.

    So Paul admonishes Christians in verses 6-8 to keep awake. The Lord's day will come as a surprise to all, but "the day should [not] overtake you as it would (or in the same way) thieves.

    This said, Jehovah's Witnesses will continue holding out hope that something 'will be written to them' about the "times and seasons", and they will continue on, sure that they have 'the edge' on everybody else.

    Paul be damned.
     
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    apocalypse

    apocalypse Guest

    Not at all brother. But when I read your writing.... "lol.... Slow down a little bit, you might learn something..."

    That spoke volumes to me.

    I realize that we shouldn't "keep account of the injury".... but unfortunately the internet does.
    I made the point on that other thread that if you really believe that JWs are "God's people" then you have to act in harmony with that. Peter had the same point made to him by Paul down in Antioch. I believe that I made that point over there as well.

    But when you write, bro, you look down your nose at people. Others have made the same observation. I don't want o go and quote them too.

    If you believe that JWs are God's chosen people, then you need to stop questioning and go to the Kingdom Hall and do whatever God's people tell you to do. Supposedly, God's people have written many an article about NOT doing what you do here.

    I don't hate you anymore than Paul hated Peter. But I know hypocrisy when I see it. And I know when somebody is talking down their nose at me.
     
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    Joshuastone7

    Joshuastone7 Administrator Staff Member

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    I believe there has been a misunderstanding here. I don't believe the Watchtower Society has God's favor, I believe the people within serve the true God. When I said "Slow down a little bit, you might learn something" I added "lol" to the beginning of that because it was meant light hearted. I don't really have thin skin, I work at a job where men will point out any weakness in you and exploit that to the extent possible of their imagination. Therefore few new guys stick around long.

    I really meant you might learn what it is I believe. I don't tell people I have all the answers, and surely your not one to take other peoples understandings as fact, such as what others think of me, I'm sure your the kind of guy that likes to discover for himself what is true, no?

    The misunderstanding is that I don't believe the Watchtower is currently doing anything for Jehovah, and only contains God's people because they know the nature of God. There are other groups out there that contain God's people, but in much lower numbers.

    I don't think the Watchtower is right about any of there end time prophecies, so why would I believe their understanding of the "peace and security" is correct? Of course it's not coming in the way they say. That is what I was talking about when I laughingly said "slow down, you might learn something", something about what I actually believe....

    So if I offended you by a perceived brash comment, I apologies, and I'll wait till we're actually friends to insult you, because with me, your not my friend until I'm insulting you.... It's all in fun man....
     
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    wallflower

    wallflower Moderator

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    Establishing and maintaining the forum requires time, effort and expense. I would like to see a respectful attitude being shown to the administrators of the forum, in recognition of this fact.

    The forum has been set up in order to assist brothers and sisters who have issues and are in need of encouragement. It is also a means of strengthening the faith of brothers and sisters.

    It is also the goal to have a peaceful atmosphere on the forum - it should be possible to have Biblical discussions in a civil manner.
     
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    Frank Conger

    Frank Conger Guest

    Hi Apocalype:

    Matt 24:36 does not say that no man can see the day or the hour, it says no man "has yet seen". Oiden according to Strongs is a primary verb used in only certain "past tenses". It is the past tense of see. So it means no man has seen. But it is not a prohibition on someone seeing it in the future. Men have been reading this one wrong and translating it wrong for years because they fear having to try to decipher God's Word and look foolish when they are wrong. But Prophets of Jehovah and those that attempt to decipher the words of the true prophets have been looking very foolish from the day there were prophets of Jehovah walking the earth until today. Picture Ezekiel lying on his side for how many days? Heating food with his own excrement? Looked pretty foolish, up until the day his prophecies were fulfilled. So, looking foolish while trying to decipher God's Word should be the goal that all reach out to. Without reaching and failing you will never succeed. The Watchtower looked foolish a few times, maybe five or six and then they hung it up and become contented wandering in a chronologicial wilderness for 40 years because they threw away their watch.

    Frank
     
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    apocalypse

    apocalypse Guest

    That's a nice post. I liked that post. I'd give it two likes, but I'm only allowed one.

    I most certainly agree that there are many people within watchtowerland that could most certainly be viewed as "God's people" and I would include Arius who was stalwart in advocating against the trinity teaching hundreds of years ago, and Sir Isaac Newton, the bulk of whose writings were religious, not scientific, and who was likewise an advocate of the truth on this matter.

    I also know good Christians within Catholicism. (Is that possible LOL) and people in other denominations who are likewise at varying stages of understanding the Divine while practicing Love.

    And there's a lot of "weeds" out there too.

    Thanks for the post!
     
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    SingleCell

    SingleCell Experienced Member

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    LOL

    I get that bro :)

    Once the ribbing stops, we have a real problem!
     
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    Joshuastone7

    Joshuastone7 Administrator Staff Member

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    Yea, in person, as close brothers we would be poking elbows at each other all the time...lol If we can't laugh at ourselves, we are just too stuffy! We shouldn't take ourselves so seriously.

    Sometimes I it's the nature of writing on here it's self that can cause rifts, other then in person, there's no emotion behind the words.
     
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