PEACE AND SECURITY

Discussion in 'Bible Prophecy' started by apocalypse, Feb 28, 2016.

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    Joshuastone7

    Joshuastone7 Administrator Staff Member

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    Well there we have it...

    First off, each and everyone one of us here have had to deal with the mistakes of the WTS, no one here has a copy-write on hardships or discoveries of errors within the Society. We have all had family within the congregations going in and out for many reasons, some being by choice, others without. Many of us have been before tribunals, boards, about our understandings and questions about teachings with the WTS. No one here has first dibs on hardships, on experiences within the congregations, we have all experienced it.

    I'm not going to bash you for the decisions you have made, it's not my place, nor is it yours to encourage anyone to stay or leave the congregations as well. We have had this discussion on this forum over and over. We have opinions here, not rights of actions. It is my opinion what you are doing is drawing out people away from God's people, and in a very big danger of stumbling someone. Again, whether you stay or go is your choice, just as it is everyone else's.

    All of prophecy shows that Jehovah will act and that will scatter the flock. It is many of our beliefs that it will be Jehovah's time table that will strike his "courtyard"/"Constant Feature" and bring down the WTS, nothing we say or do will change that fact, and it is many or our opinions that trying to liquidate b/s from the congregations will do nothing be cause them to be stumbled. We here wait for Jehovah's actions upon his house, just as prophecy guides us.

    Read this letter from a close brother to many of us here, it's reasoning should be deeply contemplated on;

    "Yes, there will always be those who go out from us who were never OF us to begin with anyhow (1 John 2:19). As is common to human nature, we tend to argue that others are guilty of something that, in reality, we ourselves are (1 John 3:12). In the case of the anti-JW movement, they're convinced somehow that those who remain behind are "followers of men" while being blind to the part where they want people to leave and to follow them. In most likelihood, the extent of their anti-JWness is directly correlated to how much of a follower of men they themselves were while in the organization. It's like those bitter divorces, where one or both spouses now despise each other, whether the family is harmed in the process or not.

    The apostle Paul struggled with seeing this going on, and at one point he wrote that he wished it were not so, but that he understood why it was allowed to happen-- that we should all manifest what's in our heart (1 Corinthians 11:19).

    Those of us aware of it have an obligation to look out for others, of course, for as long as we can (Acts 20:29).

    Stand firm, stay true, keep the faith!

    Your brother"
     
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    Thinking

    Thinking Guest

    Well why didn't you just explain yourself instead of talking double Dutch...why be so sly about your stance.
    I'm not going to waste my breath on this anymore.
     
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    apocalypse

    apocalypse Guest

    You are fooling yourself friend if you think that what you are doing here is otherwise. You are drawing away people from the Watchtower. Even the discussion we have going here is doing so. People are reading it all and it is having an effect. To suggest otherwise is disingenuous.
    You cannot question Watchtower and BE Watchtower.
    Jesus was blunt when the Pharisees suggested that what He was doing was from Beelzebub. If it was, He went on, the the kingdom (of the Devil) is divided and it will fall. Contradictions WILL NOT persist.

    I am honest. I tell you in the light of day that what I am doing is to expose Watchtower and the hypocrisy which is its mainstay. I can show simply by using Jesus words and Paul and Peter etc that what they teach is antichristian.

    The fact that the Watchtower teaches that the Trinity is wrong does NOT make them of Divine origin. Watcthtower stole the anti-Trinity teaching from Arius
    https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Arianism
    Even Sir Isaac Newton was an anti-Trinitarian hundreds of years before Russell. And he as brilliant!

    The Watchtower teaches that God is one. So what. The Devil knows true teaching and he uses it according to his desires. Remember how he tempted our Lord?

    I will make a post that will demonstrate how the GB is seeking to deceive persons within the Org. Look for it. Then tell me that the organization that they head belongs to God.
     
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    Frank Conger

    Frank Conger Guest

    Hi Apocalypse:

    Have you taken your own advice on this? I hope you have or you would be a hypocrite, wouldn't you. Even though you may now have worked up the nerve to leave the "Society", there are many in the Watchtower who will need a good push to do so. I seem to remember from one of your comments that it has taken you some time to do this.

    As to the question about Jehovah's Witnesses being "God's People" or not, I would submit to this board that there are some of God's People in the Watchtower and there are some of Satan's as well. The Watchtower came about to be the gathering storehouse for Christ's Bride in this the second presence. It is not however the storehouse for the "great crowd". The following scripture tells us who they are, where they are and who will identify and gather them along with where they will be gathered from.

    Then after dismissing the crowds, he went into the house. His disciples came to him and said: “Explain to us the illustration of the weeds in the field.” 37 In response he said: “The sower of the fine seed is the Son of man; 38 the field is the world. (Not the universe, or the planet, but the "world" of sinful mankind not said to be in any faith) As for the fine seed, these are the sons of the Kingdom, but the weeds are the sons of the wicked one,+ 39 and the enemy who sowed them is the Devil. The harvest (when these members of "good seed" are harvested) is a conclusion of a system of things,(this doesn''t extend on from 1914 till the end)* and the reapers are angels. (Not pioneers, or Elders or anyone from the Kingdom Hall) 40 Therefore, just as the weeds are collected and burned with fire, so it will be in the conclusion of the system of things.*+ 41 The Son of man will send his angels, and they will collect out from his Kingdom all things that cause stumbling and people who practice lawlessness, 42 and they will pitch them into the fiery furnace.+ There is where their weeping and the gnashing of their teeth will be. 43 At that time the righteous ones will shine as brightly as the sun+ in the Kingdom of their Father. Let the one who has ears listen. Matthew 13:36-43

    This system will be harvested by the angels as they will be the only ones who can differentiate between one of Christ's seeds and one of the Devils. We obviously can't, but the angels can. Where are they harvested from? The very place that they were planted. If they were planted while they are in the Baptist Church, they may be harvested from there as well. They will be harvested from "the world" which is where they were planted. There is little or no reason to gather them into a man made organization to prove they are the "good seed", that will be easily identifiable to the reapers. There will be people from all walks of life and all religion including those that do not belong to any religion. Some have the opinion that you have to be part of the Watchtower to enter into a salvation covenant with God. You don't. Besides, any approved baptism from Jehovah God has been lost by the Watchtower when they remained unrepentant for their fornication with the Devil. You cannot oversee a baptism of repentance when you are an unrepentant sinner. The one or the Organization doing the Baptism must be as clean as the Baptism they are conveying. The Watchtower is not clean in that way. Again, the Watchtower was the recepticle for the gathering of the New Covenant Saints during the second presence of Christ. That has been completed. I will not explain because you can't even understand the simplest things, how would you understand that?

    If you want to stay in the Watchtower, do it but there is no special blessing for doing so. If you choose to leave that is also your choice. If you are "good seed" you will be harvested after the weeds are bundled up and burnt in the fire. By the way, this scripture also points out that the Kingdom will be present before this harvest starts.(how long before it does not say). But, the weeds are harvested first and they are removed from verse 41 says very clearly that "The Son of man will send his angels, and they will collect out from his Kingdom all things that cause stumbling and people who practice lawlessness, 42 and they will pitch them into the fiery furnace".

    Frank
     
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    apocalypse

    apocalypse Guest

    Frank Conger. I like your post! I will read it again tomorrow and make a comment or two.

    It was good.

    I have left the Watchtower. So has my wife. We don't believe in it anymore. I haven't believed in WTS for 25 years. My wife has been released form the mental prison for about 10 yrs.

    However, we make an appearance for the sake of family. They are aged, 25% deceased, 25% non-attending, 25% still dragging along because of old friends, and the final 25% still trapped in the mental prison although he knows much. He is a captive of the concept.

    How is it done? It ain't easy. I have been backing away for some time and I am on a slow exit from my position.
    We fake field service. Miss many meetings. I don't know how I haven't been deleted yet.

    I have helped many to break free. I am working on a former elder right now. All we need is Jesus.
     
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    Frank Conger

    Frank Conger Guest

    Hi Apocalypse:

    I could not have lasted that long for sure. I am happy that you were able to keep your marriage together, I was not able to do that. I was more than willing to stay with my wife as she was my hearts desire (with regard to a marriage mate that is). But she could not handle continuing in the "truth" while her husband as an apostate. She was humiliated by my disassociation. She has since died (from cancer) and I look forward to seeing her in the Kingdom. I know that we are no longer married as death is the end of that bond but she was also my very best friend in the strictest sense of the expression. When I made my decision to leave, I also made a promise to myself that I would try my best to not "stumble" her by the things I said, and I think I remained true to that promise.

    Besides her, I also left behind my very good friends that were basically all I knew as I came into "the truth" when I was 20 and I was excommunicated from my birth family for studying with JW's. I did not see any choice in either decision. I developed a great desire to please God and his Son as a young man and I have never lost that desire. I am glad that you have had an effect on others you knew in JW's, I was not able to do the same thing.

    When the conclusion of this system of things does actually come, the angels will first pluck the weeds and burn them then gather the wheat into it's storehouse. You will not need directions, the angels or more specifically an angel will tell you where to go. As you notice, I have my picture as my icon and I use my real name. This is because I don't fear the Watchtower. They have done all the damage to me that they will ever do. I enjoyed my time in "the truth" and I learned much about Jehovah and his Son. But I have learned so much more since leaving. There is so much more to learn, I don't think most will believe how much because just about everyone whether Catholic or Buddhist,Born Again Christians and of course JW's think they already know everything about God. I can assure you we don't. We have just scratched the surface of our knowledge of God and his Word and of course His Christ.

    Frank
     
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    wallflower

    wallflower Moderator

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    I will state this again:

    The decision to leave or to stay with the organisation is a personal one. It is a decision that is made between an individual and Jehovah.

    Each individual on the forum possesses the ability to analyse and weigh up what they will do, and then make a decision on that.

    People should not criticise those who leave. People should not criticise those who stay. It is a personal decision.

    The forum is here to assist brothers and sisters who have issues and who are in need of encouragement. The goal is to build their faith and strengthen them.

    We are also aware of the corruption within the Watchtower Society, the fact that the Watchtower Society will collapse and not be restored. Nobody here disagrees with that.

    When the Watchtower Society collapses, the brothers and sisters will be looking to the WT and the GB for direction. That will be pointless as the Watchtower Society will be gone. So the brothers and sisters will have to be assisted to "stand on their own two feet" (spiritually speaking.)
     
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    apocalypse

    apocalypse Guest

    I am refreshed. Frank, thanks for your story. I will give you a hug one day, one brother to another. I promise you this. I want no more regrets. My last regret was when I had an opportunity to fly down and see Ray and Cynthia. My local comrade in Christ was ready to go with me, us two. Leave the wives behind. We were going to jump on a plane, no luggage, just land and see them, get some hugs and go for a meal then fly back to Canada. We didn't, and now they are gone. :(

    I suffered for more than a decade, trying to hold my young family together, keep up a front and secretly work on exposing the truth, the real thing. Not just about WTS but about Christ. I worked through the internet on dialup as soon as it came. I worked through the telephone. I worked through the mail (snail) and I worked from the platform. I had the eye of scrutiny on me many times. One memorial, I could feel the heat of the elder body's eyes on the back of my neck. Then, out of nowhere THREE persons desired to attend the memorial with us. The only non'JWs at the memorial that year, I brought. The glare was off. (I couldn't care less about the WTS memorial, these people fairly asked to come and it worked for me)

    You speak well of your wife and your words speak well of you. Be in peace my brother. I hope I am "plucked" along side you. And yes, I agree with your sentiments all. The weeds and the wheat grow together till the harvest.
     
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    apocalypse

    apocalypse Guest

    Wallflower. I give you 7 thumbs up for you post. You are absolutely correct in what you say. Without question.

    Nuff said.
     
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    belongingtojah

    belongingtojah Member

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    Yes Dear Sister I agree with you.
     
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    Utuna

    Utuna Administrator

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    You said :
    That's not totally true ! You will never be disfellowshipped for sharing your thoughts on a public forum unless you openly scathe the GB (and even so... Gabe, a member of this forum, has been disfellowshipped for years, talked here under his real name and even used a real photo of his wife and him as an avatar and yet was reinstated with tears in his eyes a months ago), if the elders of your cong ever run into it, and as they won't unless forced to do it.... On Robert's forum, we had SwordOfJah (aka Atalaya) and FaithfulJW who were fervent eulogists of the WT, (FJW being anointed; I regret that he left the board because, although I thought he was great anyway, he thought that he had no place there anymore although all the rabid X-JWs had left too after months of inflamed discussions, which made upbuilding discussions possible, at last... anyway. I never understood why he took such a decision). I've belonged to a French religious forum for a couple of months and therein, there were people from all religious backgrounds; one elder, to my knowledge (I sent him a PM but he never answered me), two pro-GB anointed brothers (I've kept in touch with one of them) and many other b/s, disfellowshipped and interested ones.....

    You know what ? So far, despite what people may shout from the rooftops everywhere online, I have (and have had indeed) more to fear from the XJWs who pretend to serve God according to the way the Spirit is supposed to flow on them... Ahem... (Yeah, mustn't be the kind of Spirit we're all thiking about) than from the elders of my cong.... Better the devil you know....

    I didn't know we'd be brought to account regarding what we did or didn't do, should have done or shouldn't have done, according to what you think you know about us.... Is there a form we must fill in so we become XJWs-friendly ?
     
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    Utuna

    Utuna Administrator

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    I'm an active JW, I'm proud of it, and am not an hypocrite ! Most of my family are active JWs and aren't hypocrite at all. This may be the case in your neck of the woods, like some people around me due to imperfection and the lack of faith so rampant around us, but the vast majority of the JWs aren't like that !

    I love my b/s, even those who'd mistreat me by ignorance, because :

    "Honor men of all sorts, have love for the whole association of brothers," - 1 Pe 2:17

    I go out in service because : "Go, therefore, and make disciples of people of all the nations, baptizing them in the name of the Father and of the Son and of the holy spirit, teaching them to observe all the things I have commanded you. And look! I am with you all the days until the conclusion of the system of things.”" - Mat. 28:19-20

    I keep attending the meeting because :

    "And let us consider one another so as to incite to love and fine works, not forsaking our meeting together, as some have the custom, but encouraging one another, and all the more so as you see the day drawing near." - Heb. 10:24-25

    I try and help all those who suffer around me, them being JWs or not, because :

    "All things, therefore, that you want men to do to you, you also must do to them. This, in fact, is what the Law and the Prophets mean." - Mat 7:12

    I keep turning in my time and having respect for the elders of my cong because :

    "But the wisdom from above is first of all pure, then peaceable, reasonable, ready to obey, full of mercy and good fruits, impartial, not hypocritical. Moreover, the fruit of righteousness is sown in peaceful conditions for those who are making peace." - James 3:17-18

    "Let the elders who preside in a fine way be considered worthy of double honor, especially those who work hard in speaking and teaching. For the scripture says, “You must not muzzle a bull when it is threshing out the grain,” also, “The worker is worthy of his wages.”" - 1 Tim. 5:17-18

    "And if a person wants to take you to court and get possession of your inner garment, let him also have your outer garment; and if someone in authority compels you into service for a mile, go with him two miles." - Mat. 5:40-41

    Is there anything "against" these things ? Is opposing such things so "important" as long as what we're asked to do isn't against God's commandments ?

    Does turning in one's time spent in the preaching work against any law recorded in the Bible ?

    "On the other hand, the fruitage of the spirit is love, joy, peace, patience, kindness, goodness, faith, mildness, self-control. Against such things there is no law." - Gal. 5:22-23

    Do I try and practice all these things the best I can only because the GB tells me to...? Do I really need them to tell me what to do in that regard, as if I were a child ?

    You may think : "Do we need to be under the GB's yoke to do all these things ?" No ! And I don't care because, by nature because of my personality, I never was under such a yoke and although being a JW, I keep doing my utmost to fulfill my vow to God to serve him the best I could. I understand that many people may have a beef against the GB because of this all but I'll never let people scathe the JWs as a whole and me as a result because of them realizing years later that they have followed men rather than God in the first place....

    Am I not able to give talks without talking about the GB or 1914 ? Am I not able to give encouraging comments to my b/s during the WT study without praising the GB for anything ? Am I not able to preach to the people in my territory and tell them about God's wonderful promises without drawing unduly attention to the GB ? Am I not able to hold the hand of an elderly sister of my congregation without telling her how wicked the GB is ? Am I not able to love and praise the brotherhood I'm in without thinking I owe it to the GB ?

    Am I that stupid ?
     
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    Thinking

    Thinking Guest


    That was a very balanced post brother .. A joy to read..
     
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    apocalypse

    apocalypse Guest

    I have several baptism talks recored on my hard drive from the one-day assemblies and I can say unequivocally that JW's do no such thing.

    If you want, I will post the latest one, another is coming up fast.

    In the baptism talk, THERE IS NO MENTION OF THE FATHER, THE SON, AND THE HOLY SPIRIT. Jw's DO NOT baptize as Mt 28:19,20 says. They baptize according to two questions. Neither one is according to Mt 28:19,20

    The last one says you are being baptized in the name of the Watchtower organization. "...god's spirit directed organization."

    They DO NOT say anyone is being baptized "in the name of the Father, the Son, and the Holy Spirit"

    Also "Let the elders who preside in a fine way be considered worthy of double honor, especially those who work hard in speaking and teaching. For the scripture says, “You must not muzzle a bull when it is threshing out the grain,” also, “The worker is worthy of his wages.”" - 1 Tim. 5:17-18

    Just in my complex, there are plenty of elders who DO NOT "preside in a fine way".

    One is an alcoholic. On may occasions I have watched him personally slap back a half dozen shots one after the other, and in a slurred speech tell all about how it doesn't affect him. He has regular booze parties and even talks about booze very favorably at the Hall. His drunken wife, one night, in front of many, went on about how drunk they were the previous time.

    Another, I work with. He has successfully hidden from all his co-workers, for 20 years, that he is a JW. Still doing it today. Once, a fellow worker approached him and said "you are one of them" and he had to admit it. But the elder then went to one of the other brothers in the workplace, to curse him out for "outing him". In fact, the other brother didn't "out him", and that other brother assured the elder that he was keeping his secret. I know how the co-worker found out.

    That elder was regularly ripping off the company, sneaking out 3-4 hours every other night. He lied about it on a regular basis. On the night he read the disfellowshipping letter about a young sister in our hall, I was at work and he was on shift with me. I was listening to the meeting on my phone. Much to my surprise, HE READ THE LETTER. I was just with him. He was paid like I was, 8 hours. He took off! That's when I began checking his pay. He was doing this for over a decade.

    Another elder was committing crimes. I won't go into it. But the new CO came in, read the paperwork and confronted another elder and the elder admitted to the CO that he had lied to conceal the crimes of that elder.

    I could go on. I could fill this board. Please tell me about "fine way" elder.
     
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    Frank Conger

    Frank Conger Guest

    Jesus taught his disciples at Matthew 28 to baptize people NOT "in" the name but "into" the name of the Father, Son and Holy Spirit. There is a huge difference, but I doubt if any of you will even care to look it up in an interlinear. You are all very comfortable with the lie. Stay Comfy!

    Frank
     

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