Resurrection

Discussion in 'Bible Prophecy' started by Tricky Sam, Jan 21, 2019.

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    Tricky Sam

    Tricky Sam New Member

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    A conversation came up insinuating that we believed "only JWs would see the new system." Yet, the website specifically says that "billions will be resurrected." (Which agrees with John 1:29, 1 john 2:2, romans 5:12). I pointed out-

    So I've always been under the basic assumption that the timeline is perfect earth > Adam eats from the tree of "knowledge of good an evil" > we reject Jehovah's guidance and protection, learning evil > Jesus pays the price to cover ALL sin, allowing the earth a chance to return under God's guidance/protection/rule > armageddon is the reclaiming of that earth (not judgement) > all sin up until this point is wiped clean and the dead rise (salvation) (except perhaps those specifically judged in something like the flood or Sodom and Gomorrah) to do the "learning of good" part during Christ's millennial reign. > THEN a judgment of people by good and evil, the evil die, good live, Jesus returns all authority to Jehovah... happily ever after-

    But I'm having trouble finding scriptural support for a resurrection at the beginning of the new system... there is indeed a resurrection, but I'm being stumbled by the following verse-

    This SEEMs to change the context to where only those who happen to survive Armageddon will actually live on earth during the 1000 years under Christ and the 144,000 (who are resurrected immediately). It seems only after that 1000 years will people be resurrected only to be instantly judged based on their works, to either live or die eternally. In which case, what really is the function of Jesus' sacrifice and salvation from all sin for those who die before Armageddon and awake only when it's time to be judged?

    Would someone be able to clarify what I'm missing or misinterpreting regarding the prophecied resurrection?

    Thank you.
     
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    Tsaphah

    Tsaphah Experienced Member

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    I'll get back to you with some information that may make sense. I have to put the scriptures in a sequence to explain it.
     
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    Tsaphah

    Tsaphah Experienced Member

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    It does seem confusing, But . . . it is necessary to read other portions of Matthew, Mark, Luke, and Revelation. First, as to those who lived before the flood, and those put to death by Jehovah, whether they will be resurrected or not, we don’t know. I believe the Revelation is not sequential. It is like a movie. The beginning has general story information that deals with how the Revelation came to John. It’s the best script ever written.

    Blessed is the one reading, and those hearing the words of this prophecy, and keeping the things having been written; for the time is near.” ( Rev 1:3 LITV )

    I won’t get into all the early scenes, but they cover or announce the general events that are to occur within the story. I’m sure you are familiar with them. So, let’s get to the later chapter and verses.
    Revelation 19 begins with the great crowd. They are praising Jehovah for salvation and destroying Babylon the Great. These are “the ones having been called to the supper of the marriage of the Lamb.” ( Rev 19:9 ) LITV ) I believe these are the 144,000. Then begins the battle of Armageddon and the destruction of the nations (the ”beast”) and their leaders. The birds eat their flesh. ( Rev 19:21 LITV )

    I believe the 144,000 are all of the anointed, which includes all of Jehovah’s servants from the beginning, many who had died, and they are the first resurrected at the beginning of Christ’s rule, and will be resurrected to heaven. (Rev 19:9 ) This is the “first resurrection”. This leads to the thousand year reign of Christ. But first, what happens? Satan is bound with chains and thrown into the abyss for how long? ( Rev 20:1-3 ) A thousand years! This time period coincides with the reign of Christ. During this period of time is when the great crowd is resurrected. They are included in the second resurrection. Why don’t they receive that first resurrection? These are the general population, both believers and non-believers. The “first resurrection” is permanent. ( Lu 20:36 ) The “second resurrection” is temporary and possibly until the revolt when Satan is released from the abyss at the end of the thousand years. Some of these will join Gog of Magog. Some of these are mentioned in John 5:29b ( those who have done evil, to the resurrection of condemnation. )

    We don’t know who will be those of the “first resurrection”, or the “second resurrection”. Maybe
    there is likely all those who died before Christ came to pay with his sacrifice. That’s MY belief. I’m probably wrong because we really don’t know. I’ve held a belief that these resurrections are in reverse order. This is based on the scripture: “And Jesus said to them, "Truly I say to you, that you who have followed Me, in the regeneration when the Son of Man will sit on His glorious throne, you also shall sit upon twelve thrones, judging the twelve tribes of Israel.” ( Mt 19:28 NKJV ) “But many who are first will be last, and the last first.” ( Mt 19:30 NJKV ) The main answer is: We don’t know!

    I was surprised to read “regeneration” because it is the Greek word used and not “resurrection”. Why? Apparently because it truly will be a new generation of humankind, on the earth.

    I hope I haven’t confused you. o_O;)
     
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    Joshuastone7

    Joshuastone7 Administrator Staff Member

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    Good evening brother. I am on a cell phone, so if I can elaborate further on something, let me know and I will answer in more depth.

    I have come to understand there are three resurrections. The first is the 144k rulers to heaven. The second are the righteous and unrighteous from Dan 12. These are mankind who will learn of Jehovah during the 1000 years. They will either be righteous or not during this time. Then the third resurrection is after the 1000 years are over, and after Satan is no more. (Rev 20:5) These are all who were ever faithful like John the Baptist. There is no reason to raise them during the 1000 years.

    AJ
     
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    Tricky Sam

    Tricky Sam New Member

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    So my main question is what biblical support is there for the great crowd to be raised on earth during (preferably toward the beginning of) Christ's 1000 years? Daniel does talk about Michael returning and calling the dead to rise (which is key evidence that Jesus=Michael, given many other verses who say it will be Jesus' voice that the dead will hear and rise)... but revelation seems to say that it's only the 144k that will rise at that time and govern over the earth, among the humans that happen to survive Armageddon.

    (A tangential theory I've heard is that the 144k station in heaven is a temporary position for during the 1000 years. It seems after the final judgement "once the final enemy, death, is defeated," Jesus is to return allauuthority Jehovah gave to him back to his Father, so he could permanently be "all in all"... I assume that this would include the 144k, who would probably return to live with our earthly family.)
     
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    Joshuastone7

    Joshuastone7 Administrator Staff Member

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    Here is the proof...

    The first resurrection will not be effected by the second death; Therefore, they cannot be part of those mentioned in Daniel twelve, for these include unrighteous. And the only way they could be unrighteous is if they will be so after their resurrection.

    As a side note, we know Daniel twelve is just a continued chronology of the eleventh chapter; the end time, and early New World.

    Revelation twenty speaks of the first resurrection, and the second death having no authority over them; Therefore, these are the ones who will be going to heaven.

    Then, Revelation twenty verse five says the rest of the dead do not come to life till after the 1000 years end, so the "rest of the dead" won't fall under the second death either, for they will be resurrected after Satan is destroyed. These "rest of the dead" do not include the righteous and unrighteous of Daniel 12 because only righteous ones will be resurrected after the 1000 years are over, when the book of life is opened.

    Now, when you put together Daniel twelve, and Revelation twenty, you see that there are three Resurrections. Those resurrected to heaven, those resurrected on earth during the 1000 years, and those resurrected after the 1000 years are over.

    Neither of the two groups mentioned in Revelation twenty are effected by the second death; Therefore, only those mentioned in Daniel twelve can be the ones resurrected during the 1000 years.

    That is not possible, for Scripture tells us that the rulers with Christ will be with him forever. (1Th 4:17)
     
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    Tricky Sam

    Tricky Sam New Member

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    Sorry for repetition, but it's how I learn.

    So, are you suggesting that the 1000 years of Christ's rule will have the 144k in heaven, plus those who happen to survive armageddon plus the resurrected unrighteous. Then judgement, where some previously unrighteous will survive and others won't, then an earthly resurrection of the righteous to join those who were formerly unrighteous? Is that an accurate synopsis?
     
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    Tsaphah

    Tsaphah Experienced Member

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    Repetition is one of the best ways to learn. ;)

    I'll have to take some time, re-read the information from AJ., and reflect on it. I tend to agree with most of AJ's information. As I've always said, "We won't know until it happens. There are several things missing from the scriptures: inflection, facial expression, and body language. :)
     
    Last edited: Jan 29, 2019
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    Joshuastone7

    Joshuastone7 Administrator Staff Member

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    Yes, the first Resurrection is the 144k who rule with Christ in heaven.

    "Because the Lord himself will descend from heaven with a commanding call, with an archangel’s voice and with God’s trumpet, and those who are dead in union with Christ will rise first." (1Th 4:16)

    "Happy and holy is anyone having part in the first resurrection; over these the second death+ has no authority, but they will be priests of God and of the Christ, and they will rule as kings with him for the 1,000 years." (Rev 20:6)

    Yes, those who survive Armageddon remain on earth.

    "Happy is the one who keeps in expectation and who arrives at the 1,335 days!" (Zech 12:12)

    The resurrection of mankind during the 1000 year reign will be those who never had the opportunity to learn of Jehovah, or that need further opportunity to show their faith before Jehovah.

    Luke describes them as the "righteous and unrighteous", only because that is how they will be at the end of the 1000 years; because, some will be resurrected to go onto living forever, and others will be resurrected to go onto being destroyed at the end of he 1000 years, as Daniel twelve describes them.

    The ones who are resurrected into the 1000 years will not be seen as righteous or not until the end of the 1000 years. Luke and Daniel are just speaking of them in the past tense, as if their fate had already been sealed, as prophecy so often does.

    "And many of those asleep in the dust of the earth will wake up, some to everlasting life and others to reproach and to everlasting contempt." (Daniel 12:2)

    "And I have hope toward God, which hope these men also look forward to, that there is going to be a resurrection of both the righteous and the unrighteous." (Acts 24:15)

    The unrighteous are those who are unrighteous at the end of the 1000 years. At the beginning of the 1000 years there will be two kinds of mankind; one are those who survive Armageddon, and the other, those who are resurrected from the past. They are not unrighteous untill the end of the 1000 years, if they choose to be.

    When they are resurrected during the 1000 years, they are neither righteous or unrighteous; this is only determined at the end.

    The final resurrection is every single individual who was ever faithful to God throughout mankind, from Abel to John the Baptist, down to anyone who dies in the time of the end. Of course we are speaking of anyone not ruling with Christ, but have the prospect of living on earth once again. In Revelation twenty, this is after the second death, and after Satan is destroyed forever.

    If you think about it, it makes sense; There is no reason for the patriarchs to be raised any sooner. Any number divided by eternity will always be zero, so these ones aren't missing anything by waiting another 1000 years. They have also already proven themselves, there's no need in furthering to do so. The extra room on earth will allow for the resurrection of mankind to learn about Jehovah; Then at the second death there will be a massive die off from the unrighteous, and lots of extra room for the patriarchs of the past, after the earth will have been made into a paradise.

    "The rest of the dead did not come to life until the 1,000 years were ended." (Rev 20:5)

    The book of life contains faithful mankind who will be resurrected after the 1000 years are over.

    "But another scroll was opened; it is the scroll of life. The dead were judged out of those things written in the scrolls according to their deeds." (Rev 20:12)
     
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    Tsaphah

    Tsaphah Experienced Member

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    Thanks for filling in with the explainations. I agree with all of them. :)
     
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    Joshuastone7

    Joshuastone7 Administrator Staff Member

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    Good, I'm glad you see it...

    The last time this subject came up I thought I was starting a fire with Utuna...lol I'm not sure where it is, I would have to search it out, but what I do remember is Utuna really got sideways when I said Satan would be buried alive for those 1000 years...lol But, I've always thought that should be a given, because to think Jehovah would destroy him, then recreate him would mean Jehovah would be responsible for creating evil, and that's impossible.

    All love...
     
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    Tsaphah

    Tsaphah Experienced Member

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    The word I would use is implausible. Satan would then be “resurrected” to life only to be judged and then destroyed. I liken his thousand years in the abyss as being confined in a black hole. It could be compared to solitary confinement in a prison. The only way out is the review of the sentence, then completion of the sentence by the power of Jehovah. Like a board of prisons review. Then the just sentence of permanent death completed.

     
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    Joshuastone7

    Joshuastone7 Administrator Staff Member

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    Greetings brother... I agree...
     

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