Rev 12 / Verse By Verse

Discussion in 'Bible Prophecy' started by Joshuastone7, Oct 26, 2016.

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    Cristo

    Cristo Member

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    This is NOT true, but more personal interpretation which seems to be getting more common.

    (1Co 2:7) . . .But we speak God’s wisdom in a sacred secret, the hidden wisdom, which God foreordained before the systems of things for our glory.

    (Eph 1:8-11) . . .This he[Jehovah] caused to abound toward us in all wisdom and good sense, 9 in that he made known to us the sacred secret of his will. It is according to his good pleasure which he purposed in himself 10 for an administration at the full limit of the appointed times, namely, to gather all things together again in the Christ, the things in the heavens and the things on the earth. [Yes,] in him, 11 in union with whom we were also assigned as heirs, in that we were foreordained according to the purpose of him[Jehovah] who operates all things according to the way his will counsels...

    Eph 2:8-10) . . .By this undeserved kindness, indeed, YOU have been saved through faith; and this not owing to YOU, it is God’s gift. 9 No, it is not owing to works, in order that no man should have ground for boasting. 10 For we are a product of his work and were created in union with Christ Jesus for good works, which God prepared in advance for us to walk in them.

    (Eph 3:9-11) . . .and should make men see how the sacred secret is administered which has from the indefinite past been hidden in God, who created all things. 10 [This was] to the end that now to the governments and the authorities in the heavenly places there might be made known through the congregation the greatly diversified wisdom of God, 11 according to the eternal purpose that he formed in connection with the Christ, Jesus our Lord,

    (Col 2:2) . . ., with a view to an accurate knowledge of the sacred secret of God, namely, Christ.

    Joshua, by placing yourself in such a high position, not only as anointed but also as a teacher, you are treading on a slippery slope when you diminish the wisdom and foresight of the only true God, Jehovah is his name.
     
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    marshroanoke

    marshroanoke Member

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    Thanks for the response. All this studying of prophecy has me feeling confused :( !!! Do you mind clarifying how the "seed" is different from the "woman"? I'm still a bit confused by this prophecy.
     
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    Joshuastone7

    Joshuastone7 Administrator Staff Member

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    What are you talking about? Jesus created everything except himself. Jehovah's name is on the door, but according to scripture Jesus created everything but himself. Jesus attributed everything to his father like a builder sign in the yard, but he was the craftsman.

    Did you not read Jhn 1:3, Jesus created all things besides himself. Nothing was created that wasn't created by Jesus except for himself.

    What are you talking about personal interpretation? That's what my Bible says.

    You continue character assassination, even when you are completely wrong?
     
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    Cristo

    Cristo Member

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    Oh....ok. Does your bible say this???

    (Eph 3:9-11) . . .and should make men see how the sacred secret is administered which has from the indefinite past been hidden in God, who created all things. 10 [This was] to the end that now to the governments and the authorities in the heavenly places there might be made known through the congregation the greatly diversified wisdom of God, 11 according to the eternal purpose that he formed in connection with the Christ, Jesus our Lord,

    Your posts are what is assassinating your character. I'm just calling you out on them...
     
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    Joshuastone7

    Joshuastone7 Administrator Staff Member

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    Your not calling me out on anything. You noticed an error on my part in the other thread, and I admitted my error, and explained the circumstance (post #6 HERE), but your comments act like your out for blood for some reason, but you keep missing. Let Jehovah be the judge between us, and our conversation...

    I clearly debunked your last message by showing that in fact Jesus created all things except himself according to Jhn 1:3, and as well I explained that Jesus wrote the Scriptures, he is the word and attributed all creation to his Father.

    It seems you have difficulty taking two scriptures that seem contradictory, and then understanding how they both attribute to each other.

    Everyone one I know who is an astute Bible scholar understands that Jehovah created Jesus, and Jesus created everything else, yet attributed all things to his Father.
     
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    Cristo

    Cristo Member

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    The Sacred Secret was. It was part of Gods eternal purpose which existed prior to the beginning of creation. It was the solution to the sin that Jehovah knew would eventually occur.


    (1Co 2:7) . . .But we speak God’s wisdom in a sacred secret, the hidden wisdom, which God foreordained...

    (Eph 1:8-11) . . .This he[Jehovah] caused to abound toward us in all wisdom and good sense, 9 in that he made known to us the sacred secret of his will. It is according to his good pleasure which he purposed in himself....

    Eph 2:8-10) . . .By this undeserved kindness, indeed, YOU have been saved through faith; and this not owing to YOU, it is God’s gift. 9 No, it is not owing to works, in order that no man should have ground for boasting. 10 For we are a product of his work and were created in union with Christ Jesus for good works, which God prepared in advance for us to walk in them.

    (Col 2:2) . . ., with a view to an accurate knowledge of the sacred secret of God, namely, Christ.


    Who is given credit for the Sacred Secret in these verses? Jehovah or Christ?
     
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    Joshuastone7

    Joshuastone7 Administrator Staff Member

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    Again, you are sadly mistaken. The sacred secret was created after Jesus. The sacred secret wasn't created until Gen 3:15 and the first prophecy, the first prophecy was the sacred secret.

    Jesus was the very first creation by God...

    Come on man, there's no reason to discuss this.

    The sacred secret did not exist before creation, it was created before the founding of the world;

    Eph 1:4 "as he chose us to be in union with him before the founding of the world,"

    Surely you already know when that was right, after all you brought it up, and no, it doesn't say before creation like you claimed, it says "founding of the world".
     
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    Cristo

    Cristo Member

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    Answer the question Joshua. Who is given credit in these verses? Jehovah or Christ?


    (1Co 2:7) . . .But we speak God’s wisdom in a sacred secret, the hidden wisdom, which God foreordained...

    (Eph 1:8-11) . . .This he[Jehovah] caused to abound toward us in all wisdom and good sense, 9 in that he made known to us the sacred secret of his will. It is according to his good pleasure which he purposed in himself....

    Eph 2:8-10) . . .By this undeserved kindness, indeed, YOU have been saved through faith; and this not owing to YOU, it is God’s gift. 9 No, it is not owing to works, in order that no man should have ground for boasting. 10 For we are a product of his work and were created in union with Christ Jesus for good works, which God prepared in advance for us to walk in them.

    (Col 2:2) . . ., with a view to an accurate knowledge of the sacred secret of God, namely, Christ.
     
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    Joshuastone7

    Joshuastone7 Administrator Staff Member

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    I have answered every single one of your questions, including this one twice, and you ignore you're errors I point out, and can't answer a single question of mine.

    This isn't a conversation, and not enjoyable. As far as I'm concerned your discussions are lessons 101, these are things I learned studying with Jehovah's Witnesses 25 years ago.

    Good day to you sir...
     
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    Cristo

    Cristo Member

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    Really?? I would quote it then if there was an answer to quote, but I can't seem to find it.

    Perhaps somebody else can help us.

    According to the scriptures, who is given credit for the creation of the Sacred Secret? Jehovah or Christ?

    (1Co 2:7) . . .But we speak God’s wisdom in a sacred secret, the hidden wisdom, which God foreordained...

    (Eph 1:8-11) . . .This he[Jehovah] caused to abound toward us in all wisdom and good sense, 9 in that he made known to us the sacred secret of his will. It is according to his good pleasure which he purposed in himself....

    Eph 2:8-10) . . .By this undeserved kindness, indeed, YOU have been saved through faith; and this not owing to YOU, it is God’s gift. 9 No, it is not owing to works, in order that no man should have ground for boasting. 10 For we are a product of his work and were created in union with Christ Jesus for good works, which God prepared in advance for us to walk in them.

    (Col 2:2) . . ., with a view to an accurate knowledge of the sacred secret of God, namely, Christ.
     
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    Baruq

    Baruq Member

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    I do not want to be the one between two dogs that are fighting at the risk that they bite me, but Cristo I have trouble for understanding what you want. Did not Joshua answer your question by writing: "Jesus created all things except himself according to Jhn 1:3"? Or, what do you want to know exactly?
     
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    Utuna

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    Part. 1 (That is, the basis)

    "Now the promises were spoken to Abraham and to his offspring. It does not say, “and to your descendants,” in the sense of many. Rather, it says, “and to your offspring,” in the sense of one, who is Christ." - Gal. 3:16

    "because we are members of his body. “For this reason a man will leave his father and his mother and he will stick to his wife, and the two will be one flesh.” This sacred secret is great. Now I am speaking about Christ and the congregation." - Eph. 5:30-32

    Part. 2 (That is, part. 1 (plus ...and the congregation))

    "For example, it is written that Abraham had two sons, one by the servant girl and one by the free woman; but the one by the servant girl was actually born through natural descent and the other by the free woman through a promise. These things may be taken as a symbolic drama; for these women mean two covenants, the one from Mount Siʹnai, which bears children for slavery and which is Haʹgar. Now Haʹgar means Siʹnai, a mountain in Arabia, and she corresponds with the Jerusalem today, for she is in slavery with her children. But the Jerusalem above is free, and she is our mother." - Galatians 4:24-26

    "...for the children of the desolate woman are more numerous than those of her who has the husband.” Now you, brothers, are children of the promise the same as Isaac was." Gal. 4:27-28

    "That is, the children in the flesh are not really the children of God, but the children by the promise are counted as the offspring." - Rom. 9:8

    I had a few more verses in mind but I'm sure that the verses above will enable you to understand what's it's all about, IMHO, of course. Please, feel free to ask questions and in such case, I'll be more explicit. :)
     
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    marshroanoke

    marshroanoke Member

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    This is really informative, thanks. I never knew about the connection between Hagar and Sarah to this prophecy.

    So, I see that the heavenly "woman" depicted in Revelation 12 is the Jerusalem above. Can you explain who the child of the pregnant woman is? Also, who are the woman's offspring that the dragon is persecuting?
     
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    Cristo

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    Hi Baruq...

    According to the scriptures, who is given credit for the creation of the Sacred Secret? Jehovah or Christ?

    (1Co 2:7) . . .But we speak God’s wisdom in a sacred secret, the hidden wisdom, which God foreordained...

    (Eph 1:8-11) . . .This he[Jehovah] caused to abound toward us in all wisdom and good sense, 9 in that he made known to us the sacred secret of his will. It is according to his good pleasure which he purposed in himself....

    Eph 2:8-10) . . .By this undeserved kindness, indeed, YOU have been saved through faith; and this not owing to YOU, it is God’s gift. 9 No, it is not owing to works, in order that no man should have ground for boasting. 10 For we are a product of his work and were created in union with Christ Jesus for good works, which God prepared in advance for us to walk in them.

    (Col 2:2) . . ., with a view to an accurate knowledge of the sacred secret of God, namely, Christ.
     
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    Cristo

    Cristo Member

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    Did Jesus create free will? DId he create Gods purpose...?


    Eph 3:9-11 “. . . and should make men see how the sacred secret is administered which has from the indefinite past been hidden in God, who created all things. [This was] to the end that now to the governments and the authorities in the heavenly places there might be made known through the congregation the greatly diversified wisdom of God, according to the eternal purpose that he formed in connection with the Christ, Jesus our Lord,”
     
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    Joshuastone7

    Joshuastone7 Administrator Staff Member

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    Jehovah didn't know Adam and Eve sinned, feel free to read all about the account in Genesis.
     
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    Utuna

    Utuna Administrator

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    I agree with : "It was the solution to the sin that Jehovah knew may/might potentially occur". Otherwise, there wouldn't have been a tree of the knowledge of good and bad..... That's what's to be expected from people gifted with intelligence and therefore free will....
     
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    Joshuastone7

    Joshuastone7 Administrator Staff Member

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    I actually believe he did not know sin would occur, and without the tree of good and bad, Adam and Eve would not have had free will.

    But that's just me...

    We already went around and around on this subject here: "It Was Complete"

    I believe the sacred secret was created at Gen 3:15.
     
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    Joshuastone7

    Joshuastone7 Administrator Staff Member

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    Jesus was part of the creation of free will.

    Jesus was Gods first purpose.

    Jesus, being the first purpose and free will, that makes him part of their creation.

    Jhn 1:3 "All things came into existence through him, and apart from him not even one thing came into existence."

    He was part of the first creation, because he was the first creation, and he created everything else.

    Anyone can dance around the idea of when the first prophecy occurred, but unless you can show me one before Gen 3:15 I'm going to stick with that moment for the creation of the sacred secret, and first moment Jehovah decided to look into the future. According to what I have read, there is no evidence he did before this moment. Unless of course you can point me there, because reading the accounts of Jehovah walking through the garden strongly suggest he did not know Adam and Eve had sinned, and the tree was simply to give them free choice.

    Again, I suggest scripture tells us Gen 3:15 is the first moment Jehovah decided to look into the future.
     
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    Cristo

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    I'm not talking about Adam & Eves sin.

    I'm talking that prior to the beginning of creation(Prov 8:22,23) Jehovah knew that eventually sin would/may occur. Along with the decision to give his creation free will, he also created the Sacred Secret as the solution to the only thing that would prevent his purpose from being accomplished, sin. It is quite possible that even Jesus did not know about this secret until Gen 3:15, whereupon the secret was revealed as the solution to what had just occurred in the Garden of Eden. Hence the word "secret".


    Eph 3:9-11 “. . . and should make men see how the sacred secret is administered which has from the indefinite past been hidden in God, who created all things. [This was] to the end that now to the governments and the authorities in the heavenly places there might be made known through the congregation the greatly diversified wisdom of God, according to the eternal purpose that he formed in connection with the Christ, Jesus our Lord,”

    New Living Translation says this
    Eph 3:9 "I was chosen to explain to everyone this mysterious plan that God, the Creator of all things, had kept secret from the beginning."

    Here is a link to a post regarding this issue. XXXXXXXXXXXXXXXXXXXXXXXXXXXXXXXX
    Read it if you like.

     

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