Rev 12 / Verse By Verse

Discussion in 'Bible Prophecy' started by Joshuastone7, Oct 26, 2016.

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    Joshuastone7

    Joshuastone7 Administrator Staff Member

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    It's also quite possible Jehovah chose not to know... And since the only evidence we have is Gen 3:15, I tend to think he didn't.

    The scenario you present has Jehovah creating Satan even though he knew what he was going to do.

    If I was going to create life, I wouldn't want to know how it was going to turn out, I would want to experience events as they unfolded. What's the purpose of creating life, if you already know the outcome?

    We can speculate all day long, and someone could even say your going outside what the Bible says, but since I'm not that kind of guy, I simply say we know what we know, and that is the first time anyone foresaw the future was Gen 3:15, and that is what we know. We've discussed this in great detail already in the other thread though.
     
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    Joshuastone7

    Joshuastone7 Administrator Staff Member

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    What was the beginning, what beginning is this scripture talking about?

    What does this scripture mean "in connection with Christ"?

    "from the beginning of the world has been hid in God" -American King James Version

    "which for ages past" -New International Version

    "had kept secret from the beginning" -New Living Translation

    "for ages in God" -English Standard Version

    "for ages past was hidden in God" -Berean Study Bible

    "for ages past was hidden in God" -Berean Literal Bible

    "hidden through the ages in God" -NWT

    And on and on... I've looked through approximately 26 Bible translations and they all agree with the original text that denotes a start at the founding of the world just like Eph 1:4 tells us;

    Eph 1:4 "as he chose us to be in union with him before the founding of the world,"

    Eph 1:4 explains Eph 3:9-11...

    The text does not mean from indefinite past, that's why you quoted from the black NWT because the grey one translated it more accurately, just as all the others...
     
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    Cristo

    Cristo Member

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    Eph 1:8-12 This undeserved kindness he caused to abound toward us in all wisdom and understanding* 9 by making known to us the sacred secret+ of his will. It is according to his good pleasure that he himself purposed 10 for an administration* at the full limit of the appointed times, to gather all things together in the Christ, the things in the heavens and the things on the earth.+Yes, in him 11 with whom we are in union and were assigned as heirs,+ having been foreordained according to the purpose of the one who accomplishes all things as he decides according to his will, 12 so that we who have been first to hope in the Christ should serve for the praise of his glory.
     
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    Baruq

    Baruq Member

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    For my part, I tend to think that Jehovah knew from the beginning what was going to happen in Eden.
    Jehovah is the creator of all things, and especially of the time which is the first thing he created: In the beginning God created… If there was a beginning, it means that time began from that moment. There is a correlation between matter, time and energy. (E = mc2)
    God is not subject to the law of time. Before creating it, it did not exist and that is why it can be said that he lives since eternity. For God, there is neither past nor future, everything unfolds before his eyes at the same moment. I do not believe that he regulates his vision of time as one settles a station on a radio, as the Society explained some time. That is why Jesus was able to say that God is a God, not of the dead, but of the living, for to him the men who died, and a fortiori his servants, are still alive.
    Then the question is: if he knew that man would sin, he also knew that Satan would rebel. So why did he create the universe?
    It is here, in my opinion, that we see the greatness of Jehovah. His sense of justice could not make him say: since there will be a grain of sand, I do nothing. A man would react like this, by cowardice perhaps, by fear or pride. But not God. There is no failure for God, he is not restrained by the vagaries of history. This is also a proof of love on his part. He was not going to deprive billions of creatures of life because of what might have seemed to be a failure from the beginning. He knew that the problem had a solution.
    Similarly, we are not faithful to God in order to demonstrate our faith, but to prove to the Devil that he is a liar. God knows what will happen to us, not the Devil who still hopes to put Jehovah in checkmate.
     
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    Utuna

    Utuna Administrator

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    Hi marshroanoke,

    Thanks for your patience ! :)

    Well, the child of the pregnant woman is easy to identify, but there's a trick, so to speak :

    "And she gave birth to a son, a male, who is to shepherd all the nations with an iron rod. And her child was snatched away to God and to his throne." - Rv 12:5

    Please compare with :

    Isa 66:6-11 (Complete Jewish Bible)
    "That uproar in the city,
    that sound from the temple,
    is the sound of Adonai repaying
    his foes what they deserve.

    Before going into labor, she gave birth;
    before her pains came, she delivered a male child.
    Who ever heard of such a thing?
    Who has ever seen such things?
    Is a country born in one day?

    Is a nation brought forth all at once?
    For as soon as Tziyon went into labor,
    she brought forth her children
    .
    “Would I let the baby break through
    and not be born?” asks Adonai.
    “Would I, who cause the birth,
    shut the womb?” asks your God.

    Rejoice with Yerushalayim!
    Be glad with her, all you who love her!

    Rejoice, rejoice with her,
    all of you who mourned for her;
    so that you nurse and are satisfied
    by her comforting breast,
    drinking deeply and delighting
    in the overflow of her glory
    "

    In the Bible, things aren't often to be taken at face value and since the book of Revelation is, through their foretold fulfillments narrated therein, the final synthesis of all the prophecies contained in the Bible, it's always helpful to have a look at what the latter ones say. Some characters may very well happen to be composite ones.

    Please compare :

    "For a child has been born to us,
    A son has been given to us;
    And the rulership will rest on his shoulder.
    His name will be called Wonderful Counselor, Mighty God, Eternal Father, Prince of Peace.
    " - Is. 9:6

    "A twig will grow out of the stump of Jesʹse,
    And a sprout from his roots will bear fruit." - Is. 11:1

    "In that day what Jehovah makes sprout will be splendid and glorious, and the fruitage of the land will be the pride and beauty of the survivors of Israel. Whoever remains in Zion and is left over in Jerusalem will be called holy, all of those in Jerusalem written down for life." - Is. 4:2-3

    "The sons of those who oppressed you will come and bow down before you;
    All those treating you disrespectfully must bow down at your feet,
    And they will have to call you the city of Jehovah,
    Zion of the Holy One of Israel
    .
    " - Is. 60:14

    "And all your people will be righteous;
    They will possess the land forever.
    They are the sprout that I planted,
    The work of my hands, for me to be beautified.

    The little one will become a thousand
    And the small one a mighty nation.

    I myself, Jehovah, will speed it up in its own time.”" - Is. 60:21-22

    Just a few verses to illustrate how the child is destined to be God's kingdom, that is Jesus Christ at first and his anointed brothers, being one flesh with him as implied by the relationship wife/husband which the aposle Paul mentionned.

    Now, please note that the woman is said to be 1260 days in the wilderness and once Satan is hurled down to the earth, it's another 3,5 times in the wilderness for her for protection against the wild beasts mentionned in the verses that follow.

    Sorry but you said : "...the woman's offspring that Satan is persecuting", I'd rather say, "As for the rest of the woman's offspring"... they are the rest of those I've just mentioned, that is those most certainly described in the following verse :

    "And a reed like a rod was given to me as he said: “Get up and measure the temple sanctuary of God and the altar and those worshipping in it. But as for the courtyard that is outside the temple sanctuary, leave it out and do not measure it, because it has been given to the nations, and they will trample the holy city underfoot for 42 months." - Rv 11:1-2

    Now, please compare the 1260 days of Rv 12:6 and the 3,5 times/42 months of the verse quoted above... The woman is said to be preserved, protected, which amounts as well to the time allowed to the two witnesses on earth (composite character here too, in my opinion) to prophesy dressed in sackcloth according to Rv 11:3.... until they're conquered.

    After the birth of the child, here is what we can read :

    "It was given a mouth speaking great things and blasphemies, and it was given authority to act for 42 months. And it opened its mouth in blasphemies against God to blaspheme his name and his dwelling place, even those residing in heaven. It was permitted to wage war with the holy ones and conquer them," - Rv 13:5

    Therefore, the rest of the offspring must be the anointed remnant who must serve as a witness of Jesus' presence through their witnessing work (be them two or more, that's not the point) till the beast conquers them and must be too, by extension, all those who have taken side for God.

    I hope it helps. These explanations are just my personal opinion and please feel free to disagree, to ask questions or to make comments.
     
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    marshroanoke

    marshroanoke Member

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    Wow thank you for that detailed response using scriptural support. You know your Bible. What I got from your response is that the pregnant woman represents the arrival of the Messianic kingdom and her seed is the anointed individuals that will make up that kingdom starting with Jesus Christ. Now, is the "bride" of the Christ talked about in the Bible a completely different woman?
     
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    Cristo

    Cristo Member

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    Hi Baruq,

    Jehovah didn't know that man would sin, nor did he know the angel who would become Satan would sin. He merely knew that eventually sin would occur.

    The Sacred Secret was the solution to sin, which was the only problem that could prevent Gods purpose from being accomplished. The Sacred Secret was created prior to the beginning of creation at Proverbs 8:22,23.

    (Pr 8:22-23) . . .“Jehovah himself produced me as the beginning of his way, the earliest of his achievements of long ago. 23 From time indefinite I was installed, from the start, from times earlier than the earth.
     
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    Joshuastone7

    Joshuastone7 Administrator Staff Member

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    Maybe you can show us how the sacred secret was created "prior to creation" by Proverbs 8:22,23?

    Pro 8:22,23 "Jehovah produced me as the beginning of his way, The earliest of his achievements of long ago. From ancient times I was installed, From the start, from times earlier than the earth."
     
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    Utuna

    Utuna Administrator

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    Hi Cristo,

    I'm not necessarily implying that you are wrong.

    If I follow your reasoning, would the Sacred Secret have worked if sin had occurred, say at the tenth generation after Adam's creation ? Was it something on hand, just in case...?
     
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    Baruq

    Baruq Member

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    Hi Cristo.
    The more I think about it, the less credible it seems to me that God does not know all the events since the very moment he decided to create.
    Besides, why would he decide not to know? What would that have changed? On the contrary, I find it extraordinary that God did not renounce to his design knowing what was going to happen. Have you ever known people who give up doing something because they are afraid that something will not go smooth? It is a human reaction, but God is so perfect that he can not be stopped by that. And I am overwhelmed with gratitude to him because of that. This has nothing to do with predestination or free will, but rather that nothing detracts Jehovah from his purpose, especially not men or even an angel like Satan. And this gives us even more assurance that he will keep his promises and that our faith is not vain.
    I don't think that the sacred secret is something that Jehovah kept aside in case he needed it; we never know, it could be useful…
     
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    Joshuastone7

    Joshuastone7 Administrator Staff Member

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    So that creation would have free will...

    Please tell me why you think Jehovah didn't know what happened in the Garden according to his own words...

    Gen 3:11-13 "Who told you that you were naked? Have you eaten from the tree from which I commanded you not to eat?” The man said: “The woman whom you gave to be with me, she gave me fruit from the tree, so I ate.” Jehovah God then said to the woman: “What is this you have done?” The woman replied: “The serpent deceived me, so I ate.”
     
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    Baruq

    Baruq Member

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    What I mean is that God being master of the time, he knows all that must happen from the beginning. He himself is not subject to time. For him there is not past and not future. But that does not stop him from letting things take their course without intervening. Creation have free will. It is not Jehovah who dictates to his creatures what they must do. But he knows what their choice will be.
    In Genesis, he asks accounts to man, and then to woman. The fact that he asks questions does not mean he did not know what happened. I also asked my son or daughter what they did, when I knew very well that they have done a mistake. I also tell my dog "what did you do?" when he pisses in the house!
     
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    Cristo

    Cristo Member

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    Hi....

    Definitely not something on hand, just in case kind a thing. It was created as part of Gods purpose for us for when sin would occur. I don't think God does just in case kinda thing. He doesn't need to. Everything was worked out from the beginning.

    From the time he began creation, his purpose for creation was already complete

    .Ecclesiastes 3:14 . . .I have come to know that everything that the [true] God makes, it will prove to be to time indefinite. To it there is nothing to add and from it there is nothing to subtract. . .

    This is ALL part of Gods purpose to eliminate any potential from stopping his purpose from being accomplished. There was only one potential that could do that, using free will to do bad. Proverbs 16:4 states “Everything Jehovah has made for his purpose, yes, even the wicked one for the evil day.”

    Jehovah didn't make Satan choose to do bad. He merely gave all creation free will. And this is how he KNEW sin WOULD eventually occur, because it is a certainty that eventually both choices good AND bad will be made.

    (Eph 3:9-11) . . .and should make men see how the sacred secret is administered which has from the indefinite past been hidden in God, who created all things. 10 [This was] to the end that now to the governments and the authorities in the heavenly places there might be made known through the congregation the greatly diversified wisdom of God, 11 according to the eternal purpose that he formed in connection with the Christ, Jesus our Lord,

    Eph 1:8-11 “. . .This he caused to abound toward us in all wisdom and good sense, in that he made known to us the sacred secret of his will[purpose]. It is according to his good pleasure which he purposed in himself for an administration at the full limit of the appointed times, namely, to gather all things together again in the Christ, the things in the heavens and the things on the earth. [Yes,] in him, in union with whom we were also assigned as heirs, in that we were foreordained[predestined] according to the purpose of him who operates all things according to the way his will counsels,

    2Ti 1:9 “He saved us and called us with a holy calling, not by reason of our works, but by reason of his own purpose and undeserved kindness. This was given us in connection with Christ Jesus before times long lasting,” [before the beginning of time, ASV]

    Jesus Christ was the first part of bringing that purpose to be, to cause to become that which is in God. It was the first time that God brought his purpose to fruition. The Sacred Secret is also part of that purpose, and was created in connection with Jesus Christ, but would only materialize once sin had been committed. The 144,000 are truly brothers of Christ because they were also created as part of that purpose prior to creation, yet would not be manifest until Jesus Christ sacrificed himself to allow the new creation to come to exist. The 144,000 were not just an addition to Gods plan once sin occurred, but were truly part of Gods original purpose prior to creation, just as Jesus Christ, which is why they will both share the same glory.
     
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    Joshuastone7

    Joshuastone7 Administrator Staff Member

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    lol...

    I just happen to believe that since he is capable of knowing everything, he can also curtail that and choose not too. After creating Jesus, would he wanted to experience his life in real time, not knowing everything that was going to happen already? What fun is that? Why not create them, have faith in your creation to do the right thing, and give the power to do it, but the ability to not if they choose?

    Zech 3:7 "This is what Jehovah of armies says, ‘If you will walk in my ways and carry out your responsibilities before me, then you will serve as a judge in my house."

    Besides all of that thought what ifs, I stand by the text itself, and I can't find any evidence of prophecy before Gen 3:15...

    That's just me...
     
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    Joshuastone7

    Joshuastone7 Administrator Staff Member

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    The sacred secret includes humans, Christs brothers are part of the sacred secret, so your saying he would have known sin would occur on earth, and he would have known man was to sin and the humans that were part of the sacred secret, before Jesus or any creation was ever made. o_O
     
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    Joshuastone7

    Joshuastone7 Administrator Staff Member

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    So the 144k were chosen before the creation of Christ? Gotya.... Even though Christ created everything except himself...

    You might do me a favor and tell me why Eph 1:4 says founding of the world, that same world that was destroyed in the flood, and same world set up for fire in the future....?

    Why it says world and not creation?
     
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    Baruq

    Baruq Member

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    Of course, everything is possible for Jehovah. But in fact, whether he knew what was going to happen or not do not change anything. But personally, I feel more gratitude for a God who does what he has decided, knowing that he would encounter trouble. But it's a personal point of view.
     
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    Joshuastone7

    Joshuastone7 Administrator Staff Member

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    One things for sure brother, we'll find out one day...lol But I learn from differing understandings for sure, it's the only way to stay sharp... :)
     
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    Cristo

    Cristo Member

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    It's obvious that angels were part of Gods purpose. It's also obvious that humans were part of that purpose. The Sacred Secret was part of that purpose also. We know these things are true.

    What we don't know is how complex or not the Sacred Secret was regarding other possibilities. For example what if only Satan had sinned, and Adam & Eve had not. Only through speculation can we guess at what role the Sacred Secret would have played in dealing with the sin by Satan. What we do know is that the Sacred Secret was the construct Jehovah used once sin did occur, and since it involved both realms the physical and the spiritual, the Sacred Secret as we know it involves Jesus Christ sacrificing himself for us.

    Jehovah doesn't do unnecessary actions. Therefore we know that this version of the Sacred Secret is exactly what needed to be done to solve the problem of sin. Are there other versions of it? Couldn't tell ya. But if Adam & Eve hadn't sinned Jesus Christ wouldn't have had to die for our sins. Maybe the Sacred Secret would have remained just that, a secret.

    Regarding knowing the humans who are of the 144,000 prior to creation. On a personal basis, no, but as a group or a better way to put it, a new creation. Yes.
     
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    Joshuastone7

    Joshuastone7 Administrator Staff Member

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    A clear explanation of what you believe, and how it could have been implemented. I just happen to think the sacred secret was created at Gen 3:15, but no biggie, the reason this forum exists is to discuss these differences, and to read other ways of looking at things. Without conflicting understandings, one cannot confirm their own.
     

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