Rev 22 discussion

Discussion in 'General Discussions' started by Tricky Sam, Apr 20, 2019.

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    Tricky Sam

    Tricky Sam New Member

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    I was curious how others interpreted Revelation 22. To me, this seems to be a conversation just between Jesus and John. I see no breaks where other people join and leave the conversation. Trinitarians don't like that because if this is the case, it would specify that AFTER Christ ascended, even after he's given authority and a throne, he is still referred to as an angel. He has authority given to him, but directly tells people NOT to worship him as even then he is still a fellow servant, and worship belongs to God.

    (I've put in blue what seems to be Jesus speaking, and bolded relevant parts that seem to confirm this, as in each section he says in the 1st person singular "I am coming." And at the end, john responds "Come lord Jesus.")
    However, I've seen some JWs reject this idea because in the middle, he speaker uses the phrase "Alpha and Omega, the first and the last"... a phrase which Jehovah has also used. But I don't see that as confusing the two, necessarily... given the context where Jesus is clearly shown using at least the "first and the last" phrase in his own context:

    So, Alpha and Omega may not be in itself an expressionof diety... but a reference to being "First and Last" in some sense, similar to how Jesus is clearly our lord, without being The LORD (his God, and Father Jehovah).

    So what do you say? It's rather clear Jesus is speaking to John in verse 6, because "the one who is coming" is Jesus. Verse 12 is him to, and verse 16 and on is indisputably Jesus...

    But some say John was just fine talking to Jesus, then some nameless angel flies midconversation, obviously more impressive than Jesus somehow, to mention one thing, disappear and have Jesus continue without any explanation. Others say the same thing about Jehovah popping in at verse 13, and leaving with no acknolwedgement.
     
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    Tricky Sam

    Tricky Sam New Member

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    Because it's assumed "Alpha and omega, beginning and end" is "a statement of almightiness (El Shaddai, Jehovah)." Rather, this could also be a statement of authority, as Matthew 28:18 shows Jesus having been given all authority ... And 1 Corinthians 15:20-28 describes God placing that authority under Jesus for his millennial reign, after which point, all authority would be given back to the one that gave it. In that case, even if alpha and Omega were attached to pantokrator (generally translated "almighty"), it still wouldn't be an issue as this is a description of krateó, which is Dominion and authority, not physical capability. So, if the infinite, truly almighty God, El Shaddai, who rightfully has Dominion over all chooses to place authority temporarily with someone else, then there is nothing polytheistic about acknowledging the authority shown in Matthew and 1 Corinthians Jehovah God chose to place in Jesus.

    Contextually, Chapter 21 is quite clearly referring to Jehovah as Alpha and Omega as it compares the object of that phrase as being "with the lamb" (and therefore not being the lamb), which calls back to chapter 1:8 "“I am the Alʹpha and the O·meʹga,” says Jehovah God, “the One who is and who was and who is coming, the Almighty.” This phrase is surrounded by context that points to the Father, and the phrase "The one who is and who was and who is coming" references the hebrew "Hayah, Hoveh, Yihyeh" (specifically spelling out the hebrew tetragrammaton in greek). Which seems to be separate from the description in verses 12-18
    This section seems to be rather specifically referring to Jesus, including claiming to be "the first and the last" in the context of his resurrection, although being specifically separate from the one that resurrected him.
     
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    Tsaphah

    Tsaphah Experienced Member

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    Ok Tricky Sam, I’ll jump in here with both feet. According to the writer, John, he is giving a description of the vision. John is explaining what he sees. Accordingly, what appears to him are symbolic. It’s like watching an animated movie. What does the throne represent? A position of power.
    One thing to notice about the throne, it is written in singular form. But, it is associated with God, and the Lamb. The “river of water of life” is “coming from the throne of God and of the Lamb” (Rev 22:1 NASB ) “coming forth out of the throne of God and of the Lamb.” ( LITV )

    It appears that John sees both God, and the Lamb sitting on the same throne. Could that be possible? Or, is it just a mis-translation of the Greek word, thronos. This word, according to Strong’s definition, means:
    a throne seat
    a. a chair of state having a footstool
    b. assigned in the NT to kings, hence, kingly power or royalty
    1. metaph. to God, the governor of the world
    2. to the Messiah, Christ, the partner and assistant in the divine administration 1b
    c. hence divine power belonging to Christ.

    Hence; If Jesus is God, why does he need to rule with a partner and assistant? I read elsewhere that God is “all in all”.

    We can also ask: Is this throne a metaphor, or the real thing? The other questions raised are the statements written by John. We may presume that the angel sent to show John the vision and explanation, is likely Gabriel. He has been identified as an important messenger (angel) in other scriptures. (Dan 8:15-16, 9:21 ) and ( Luke 1:19, 26 )

    The throne can also be said to be a dual throne. “To him who overcomes I will grant to sit with Me on My throne, as I also overcame and sat down with My Father on His throne.” (Rev 3:21 NKJV )

    From these scriptures it appears that the “thrones” are a metaphor/symbol of ruler-ship. It may not be a literal seat/throne. In Genesis 41, Joseph was given the power to rule all of Egypt by the pharaoh. It says: “You shall be over my house, and all my people shall be ruled according to your word; only in regard to the throne will I be greater than you.”

    There are many ways of expressing “seat”, especially dealing with power, rule, thinking, etc.: A place from which authority is exercised = The county seat. The brain as the seat of the mind. Forming the base of something.

    The term “Alpha and Omega”, appears 4 times in the Revelation. ( 1:8, 1:11, 21:6, 22:13 ) In the first use, 1:8 is a statement about Jehovah God. “I am the Alpha and the Omega, says the Lord God, who is, and who was, and who comes, the Almighty.” Jesus is never referred to as the Almighty. He is also never referred to as Lord God. When this term is used in the Greek scriptures/NT, it is speaking of Jehovah God. The term “Lord God” appears 13 times in the Greek scriptures/NT. It is usually taken from the Hebrew/OT verse. Here is one scripture in Revelation which shows the difference. “They sing the song of Moses, the servant of God, and the song of the Lamb, saying: “Great and marvelous are Your works, Lord God Almighty! Just and true are Your ways, O King of the saints!” Is the Lamb singing to himself? “But I saw no temple in it, for the Lord God Almighty and the Lamb are its temple.” ( Rev 21:22 NKJV )

    As to the statement: “I am the Alpha and the Omega, says the Lord God, who is, and who was, and who comes, the Almighty.” ( Rev 1:8 Codex ) Once again, the use of “Lord God” and “Almighty”, in the same sentence, is Jehovah God. Some translations do not use “Lord God”, they simply leave out “God” and say Lord. (NKJV, KJV, KJ21 )

    Jesus could correctly say “I am the Alpha and the Omega, the Beginning and the End. I will give of the fountain of the water of life freely to him who thirsts. He who overcomes shall inherit all things, and I will be his God and he shall be My son.”
    ( Rev 21:6-7 NKJV )

    The alpha is the first letter of the Greek alphabet, where that word comes from. Omega is the last letter of the Greek alphabet. He is also the beginning of God’s creation, and the last like Him. No other creation was like the Son of God. When He is set up as King of the Earth, He will be the one giving the water of life. He will be their God and they will be his children.

    Enough for today.
     
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    Tricky Sam

    Tricky Sam New Member

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    I think I've made the mistake of making too broad of a statement. I was trying to be thorough, but I seem to have introduced too many issues at once.

    So, starting from a better starting point-
    If you look at all the letters from the apostles to the congregations, all books from Romans on (except Hebrews and 3rd John), they all have a uniform opening greeting along the lines of "grace and peace to you from God and his Son"
    (Shameless plug for the video on that topic ).

    Revelation is not an exception-

    Verse 4 all describes Jehovah. Verse 5-6 all describes Jesus.

    I think it's also safe that anyone except see trinitarians would agree that Revelation 1:8 is clearly speaking of Jehovah as he is not only called "kurios" but "kurios ho Theos." Here, Alpha and Omega refers to him, as he has supreme authority.

    But, would you object to verse 13-18 speaking of Jesus? If not, how so?

    Do you believe this goes back and forth between describing Jesus and his Father? Or, could this description including being "I am the first and the last" mean something other than a title unique to God?

    I'm not attempting to confuse the two, rather, if this reading is correct and Jesus was the angel speaking to John throughout chapter 22, that would be the most specific statement against the Trinity out there.
     
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    Joshuastone7

    Joshuastone7 Administrator Staff Member

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    “In the beginning was the Word, and the Word was with the God, and the Word was God. He was in the beginning with the God. Through him all things were created, and without him not even one thing came into being, that were created through him. Life came to be, and that life was the light of mankind.”
     
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    Tsaphah

    Tsaphah Experienced Member

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    The one with the “two-edged sword” is none other than the arisen Christ Jesus. ( Heb 4:12; Rev 1:16; Rev 2:12 ) Revelation is not an epistle ( letter ) from the apostles. It is a direct message of prophesy from Christ Jesus and Jehovah God. It will correct the error that occurred in the Garden. All things created by Jehovah and Christ were created for the Son.
     
    Last edited: May 21, 2019
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    Joshuastone7

    Joshuastone7 Administrator Staff Member

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    Greetings brother. I completely agree...

    To me, it seems the more complete reasoning (along with your thoughts), for the Revelation to have revealed the completion of the sacred secret.

    "The revelation of Jesus Christ, which God gave him to show to his servants the things that must soon take place." (Rev 1:1)

    "But in the days when the seventh angel is about to blow his trumpet, the sacred secret that God declared as good news to his own slaves the prophets is indeed brought to a finish." (Rev 10:7)

    Ooh, I feel a new study and post on this subject in my future... ;)
     
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    Tricky Sam

    Tricky Sam New Member

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    .


    Also... Could you address the above question- do you read Rev 1:13-18 as referring to Jesus? Or no? How and why?
     
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    Tsaphah

    Tsaphah Experienced Member

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    Here’s one I forgot to list. “And to the angel of the church in Smyrna write, ‘These things says the First and the Last, who was dead, and came to life:'” ( Rev 2:8 NKJV )

    Yes, John was told to write this to the 7 church in Smyrna, in a book, or letter. Jesus said that John was to write to all seven churches. “Blessed is he who reads and those who hear the words of this prophecy, and keep those things which are written in it; for the time is near.” ( Rev 1:3 NKJV )
    He addressed each of the seven churches, revealing each for their good, and bad deeds. John saw the vision, ( I liken to a movie ) and at the same time, wrote what he saw. Think of this as something that you or I would experience today. How would we describe it?

    I am contacted by Jesus. He has been given the script for this documentary movie, that forecasts a time in the future. God is the author, or screen writer. He gives the script to Jesus ( the director ), who hands it over to one of His angel ( the producer ), who shows it to John ( the distributor ). John then gives copies to each theater (the churches ). They, in turn, give copies to those in the audience. Now it is up to them to learn what is expected to become a true member of the Kingdom.

    This is more than a movie. It is reality. As for Rev 1:13-18, it is speaking of Christ Jesus. Verse 13 says “one like the Son of Man”. Jesus took the form of man, when on earth. Jesus refers to himself, over 31 times in Matthew. ( 8:20, 9:6, 10:23, 11:19, 12:8, 12:32, 12:40, 13:37, etc. ) That alone gives evidence to who is referred to as the Son of Man. Other places and times used, are (Mark 14, Luke 27, John 11 )

    Remember, John is seeing a vision. I likened it to a movie. Some others could liken it to a dream. What John is seeing is what he could relate to in his day. Also, Jesus and Jehovah are what? Spirits! What does a spirit look like?? In one instance it was a burning bush. Right? ( Ex 3:1-4 ) :) I believe that should give the how and why it is the personage we know as Jesus. How could it be someone else?
     
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    Tsaphah

    Tsaphah Experienced Member

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    Here is one that is promised in Revelation. ( Rev 1:1 & 22:6 ) It is a promise for some fast food, known as Tacos. Yup! That’s right. Here is why. “The Revelation of Jesus Christ, which God gave unto him, to shew unto his servants things which must shortly come to pass; and he sent and signified it by his angel unto his servant John:” The Greek word used here, translated as “soon” or “shortly” is tachos. ( Rev 1:1 KJV )

    If it isn’t delivered, as promised in Rev 1:1, it will be a little later in Rev 22:6, “And he said unto me, These sayings are faithful and true: and the Lord God of the holy prophets sent his angel to shew unto his servants the things which must shortly be done.” It all depends on how many are in line, ahead of you. ( Rev 22:6 KJV ) :p:)
     

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