Revelation 14:1 and the Problem of Literalness

Discussion in 'Bible Prophecy' started by Earthbound, Mar 9, 2016.

  1. 0
    0
    0
    Earthbound

    Earthbound Guest

    Christian greetings, JoshuaStone7,

    ...continuing where I left off...

    The first thing I want to do is establish some context here.

    We can see that the apostle Paul is talking to the Gentile believers who would be the intended listeners of this letter he is writing to them.

    As a Jew, Paul is grieved that his countrymen, his fellow Jewish believers descended from the days of Abraham, Isaac, and Jacob, could be so blind to the truth about Jesus as the Messiah. He tells those listening to his letter being read that he'd exchange his own place in Christ's kingdom if it meant salvation for his countrymen.

    "I am a follower of Christ, and the Holy Spirit is a witness to my conscience. So I tell the truth and I am not lying when I say my heart is broken and I am in great sorrow. I would gladly be placed under God's curse and be separated from Christ for the good of my own people. — Romans 9:1-4a, CEV

    So, we've established the setting as Paul then goes on to reassure them that the failure of the children of Jacob (nee Israel) in rejecting their own Messiah they'd been begging for for how many years?— did not mean a failure on the part of Jehovah's promises to Abraham, which some call today "the Abrahamic Promise or Covenant," right? Jehovah promised Abraham that his descendants would become as innumerable number as the sands along the sea, or the myriads of stars that lit a clear night's sky.

    Here's the apostle Paul's words:

    "They are the descendants of Israel, and they are also God's chosen people. God showed them his glory. He made agreements with them and gave them his Law. The temple is theirs and so are the promises that God made to them."— Romans 9:4b, NWT

    He's saying this of his people, the Jews.

    Paul continues:

    "It cannot be said that God broke his promise. After all, not all of the people of Israel are the true people of God." —Romans 9:6-8, CEV

    Let's talk about the "true" people of God.

    The people said to Jesus, "Abraham is our father!" Jesus replied, "If you were Abraham's children, you would do what Abraham did. Instead, you want to kill me for telling you the truth that God gave me. Abraham never did anything like that. — John 8:39-40, CEV

    Anyone who belongs to God will listen to his message. But you refuse to listen, because you don't belong to God. — John 8:47, CEV

    "Not all of the people of Israel are the true people of God," Paul wrote. And he was right. Jews castigated their brothers and sisters who became followers of Jesus, and kept doing so right up until Jerusalem was destroyed in 70CE and suddenly the children of Abraham had a wake-up call of what Jehovah thought of their faithlessness and apostasy.

    But some of them did, have and continue in this day to be followers of Jesus, and a great crowd of other believers, from out among the Gentiles of the nations, becoming "citizens of heaven ... eagerly waiting for our Savior to come from there." Philippians 3:20, CEV

    I'll conclude with these words from the apostle Paul:

    The Lord told Moses that he has pity and mercy on anyone he wants to. Everything then depends on God's mercy and not on what people want or do... Everything depends on what God decides to do, and he can either have pity on people or make them stubborn. Someone may ask, "How can God blame us, if he makes us behave in the way he wants us to?" But, my friend, I ask, "Who do you think you are to question God? Does the clay have the right to ask the potter why he shaped it the way he did? ...God wanted to show his anger and reveal his power against everyone who deserved to be destroyed. But instead, he patiently put up with them. He did this by showing how glorious he is when he has pity on the people he has chosen to share in his glory. Whether Jews or Gentiles, we are those chosen ones,
    just as the Lord says in the book of Hosea, "Although they are not my people, I will make them my people. I will treat with love those nations that have never been loved. "Once they were told, 'You are not my people.' But in that very place they will be called children of the living God." And this is what the prophet Isaiah said about the people of Israel, "The people of Israel are as many as the grains of sand along the beach. But only a few who are left will be saved.
    — Romans 9:15, 18-20, 22-27, CEV (Confer Matthew 24:22)


    ~ Earthbound ~
     
  2. 0
    0
    0
    Earthbound

    Earthbound Guest

    ...continuing from previous post...

    Just for the sake of brevity, and since I touched on this in the previous post, about "doing the works of Abraham" if someone wants to be considered a descendant of Abraham in the greater sense than being a mere seed from his loins. Once the system of things in Jesus day was destroyed, those few Jews who became Christians went to the Gentiles with the gospel. From out of the nations would come a "great crowd" who would be the true people of God, for they had circumcised their hearts, and abided by the principles behind the Laws of Moses, and not by their literal compliance and lawless legalism.

    I touched on additional scriptural support in the previous post that while the Jews are temporarily cut off for our blessing, until the day when they are grafted back into the vine and both the "great crowd" of Gentile believers and the "small flock" of Jewish Christians become one in the vine which is the Christ. If they are to be grafted back in, that means that they will be co-heirs with the "great crowd" coming into the Messianic Kingdom.

    In glancing back to the next couple of scriptures you cited, please be sure to let me know if I need to elaborate, but what I've posted in this and the previous post should have helped you better understand who I believe "Israel" is in our day.

    Every believer who has faith like Abraham in days like these would surely be included as a citizen of the heavens. Abraham lived all his life out in the wilderness in tents while all around him city-states rose and fell. There's no denying a certain sense of security that comes from living near a lot of other people. Gash your leg out in the boonies versus gashing your leg in a town with a hospital or ambulance service and see who stands a better chance of seeing tomorrow. But Abraham was waiting for the city with real foundations, the maker of which is Jehovah God, right? The patriarch had a faith we can only aspire to.

    But who is Israel today? The body of believers who refer to themselves as followers of Jesus and servants of one another. They believe, and they hope, and they have faith. They do as Jehovah demanded of the children of Abraham, and remain separate from the world. They act as ambassadors in a foreign land, and strive not to bring reproach upon their Purchaser.

    ~ Earthbound ~
     
  3. 3,812
    736
    113
    Joshuastone7

    Joshuastone7 Administrator Staff Member

    Joined:
    Jan 26, 2013
    Messages:
    3,812
    Likes Received:
    736
    Trophy Points:
    113
    Gender:
    Male
    Home Page:
    Greetings brother...

    So we know even if you were a genetic Jew, you must be one in deed whether you are genetic or Gentile in order to be considered a Jew right? That included excepting Christ as Jehovah's representative right?

    So where does that put Jews in your understanding today? I am assuming you consider them those who currently reject Jesus as the Messiah. So if Christ clearly said excepting him was what was required to be a Jew, how could anyone today who doesn't except him be part of that prophetic group?
     
  4. 3,812
    736
    113
    Joshuastone7

    Joshuastone7 Administrator Staff Member

    Joined:
    Jan 26, 2013
    Messages:
    3,812
    Likes Received:
    736
    Trophy Points:
    113
    Gender:
    Male
    Home Page:
    Okay, if you could clarify a little more.

    Are you saying these above are the 144k? Are you saying the 144k will be people alive in the end who are genetic Jews? Are you saying the 144k come from the disciples on, and were filled with first century Jews not including Cornelius? Are we sure 12000 from each tribe became a Christian?

    Thanks...
     
  5. 0
    0
    0
    Earthbound

    Earthbound Guest

    Ugh! The last hour and a half I spent typing a response is gone because my keyboard went wonky all of a sudden and wiped it all out, and I had to reboot. So frustrating. ;(

    I'll try to get back to this tomorrow.

    ~ Earthbound ~
     
  6. 3,812
    736
    113
    Joshuastone7

    Joshuastone7 Administrator Staff Member

    Joined:
    Jan 26, 2013
    Messages:
    3,812
    Likes Received:
    736
    Trophy Points:
    113
    Gender:
    Male
    Home Page:
    The second time will be better... ;)
     
  7. 491
    79
    28
    John S

    John S Member

    Joined:
    Feb 22, 2015
    Messages:
    491
    Likes Received:
    79
    Trophy Points:
    28
    Gender:
    Male
    Occupation:
    Sign art, auto pinstriping, musician
    Location:
    Petal, MS ,USA
    Enjoying the conversations all.

    As far as the Great Tribulation....and the Great Crowd that survives it..."comes out of..."

    John was very familiar with the bride of Christ; those 'Israelites ' in a spiritual sense..."God's People", as he himself was one of the 12 foundation stones of the spiritual temple "Not made with hands."

    Yet, the angel gave John a new revelation:

    1. There will be a "Great Tribulation"

    2. A Great Crowd would survive...and these are not Israelites (touche' to you brother who plucked that out)

    I will say to all that we ALL know Revelation shows the last days of this system builds to the great climax when tribulation is first brought down upon the whole world via the 8th king...and life and death becomes the issue .

    Take the Mark of the Beast, or die.

    This must be the great tribulation, which climaxes with the world witness described in R11. So at the end, Satan crushes religion, and then turns to his real target: anointed Christians who are to receive the resurrection, whom he hates...as they are the final pieces of the Kingdom vulnerable to death. And he wishes to accommodate that in a real and tortuous way just as he did the first century. Jesus, the Apostles and disciples.

    Now, there is a definite distinction between the 1st century tribulation, 1.1 million...and the Great Tribulation: billions...and the Revelation was written well after Jerusalem's destruction, as we know.

    As to people being awakened after the Armageddon battle?

    I think attention must be given to the Revelation again, for it simply says No one is resurrected until after the 1000 years as far as the earthly ...2nd Resurrection is concerned. This takes place a mere 1000 years...a pittance of time in even man's view.

    I believe no one has everlasting life while on earth during the thousand years, because the temple has not come down from heaven and the Resurrection of the dead has not occurred yet, as scriptures show. Yes, "after"....but not till after Satan is destroyed, as Revelation 20 shows.
     
  8. 491
    79
    28
    John S

    John S Member

    Joined:
    Feb 22, 2015
    Messages:
    491
    Likes Received:
    79
    Trophy Points:
    28
    Gender:
    Male
    Occupation:
    Sign art, auto pinstriping, musician
    Location:
    Petal, MS ,USA
    The 1000 years is dedicated to preparing the bride for rulership. This takes time. Look at us! Ignorant, weak, stubborn, proud....etc. We are going to have to have a LOT of work done on our hearts and minds before we can start ruling over anything.

    The 1000 years is not held out to be the grand finale' when the temple comes down and everlasting life in the symbolic form of trees producing fruits and waters flowing from the temple are seen, don't you think?

    Will it be a time for the earth to cleanse and heal? Surely.

    Will it be a time for restoration of true Christian worship of God and Christ? Oh certainly! No demons, no powers vested in churches or Halls promoting their own agendas. Just the facts.

    So, growth, illumination, historical events, and a new start for mankind. They will have to prepare themselves for Satan's NEXT return...and the Resurrection afterwards. There is also mention of a 'city'...and the 'holy ones' who Satan goes right after when he is released. Is this an administration of anointed or Great Crowd survivors who have formed a stronghold of pure worship...as the evil root has sprouted YET AGAIN during the 1000 years (Gog and Magog who surround the city)

    Details? I certainly can't but imagine.

    But...I may be dead wrong here, too. Maybe Jesus will not allow the Great Crowd and any children of theirs to die...and maybe no diseases. After all, mankind was living almost a 1000 years before the Flood. And, of course, like the Exodus group, dissenters will no doubt bring bad attitudes into the 1000 years, which will have to be stopped if it gets out of hand....

    So....maybe since the anointed are still 'babes', or young 'virgins'...(similar to Rev. 12:1-4) the angels who were used to destroy evil at Armageddon may be here to address the governmental needs for the 1000 years...

    Well...here I go, speculating again...sorry.

    But it is so exciting to think about isn't it brothers and sisters?
     
    Last edited: Mar 18, 2016
  9. 0
    0
    0
    Earthbound

    Earthbound Guest

    Christian greetings, JoshuaStone7,

    I'm going to be far more brief than I was in the post I inadvertently lost last night due to a computer glitch, so my apologies in advance.

    I believe what the account at Revelation 7 tells me as to who the "144,000" are:

    And I saw another angel ascending from the sunrising, having a seal of [the] living God; and he cried with a loud voice to the four angels to whom it was granted to harm the earth and the sea, saying: "Do not harm the earth or the sea or the trees, until after we have sealed the slaves of our God in their foreheads." And I heard the number of those who were sealed, a hundred and forty-four thousand, sealed out of every tribe of the sons of Israel:

    Out of the tribe of Judah twelve thousand sealed; Out of the tribe of Reu'ben twelve thousand; Out of the tribe of Gad twelve thousand;
    out of the tribe of Ash'er twelve thousand; Out of the tribe of Naph'ta·li twelve thousand; Out of the tribe of Ma·nas'seh twelve thousand;
    out of the tribe of Sim'e·on twelve thousand; Out of the tribe of Le'vi twelve thousand; Out of the tribe of Is'sa·char twelve thousand; out of the tribe of Zeb'u·lun twelve thousand; Out of the tribe of Joseph twelve thousand; Out of the tribe of Benjamin twelve thousand sealed.
    — Revelation 7:2-8, NWT

    Jesus described the Jews who believed their Messiah was to be found in Jesus as a "little flock."

    "Have no fear, little flock, because YOUR Father has approved of giving YOU the kingdom." — Like 12:32, NWT

    The Jews who became believers were the ones "approved" by Jehovah for coming into the kingdom over which Jesus would serve as King and High Priest. Their fellow Jews, however, were still en route to the Judgment that awaited them in 70CE, when they would be wiped out of existence just as those who had been living at Sodom and Gomorrah, or those wiped out in the Flood of ancient days. In fact, the Flood is a wonderful example to look to as a precedent for Jehovah issuing a judgment and then promising never to do so again in such a manner. To paraphrase: in the days of Noah, there came a Great Flood such as there had never been to that day, nor ever would occur again— a promise made with the covenantal sign of the rainbow in the heavens as a former system was ended and a new begun. In the same way, Jehovah brought the judgment behind the Great Tribulation upon His covenant people (cf Matthew 21:13; 1 Peter 4:17), the sons and daughters of Abraham, but also promised He would never bring such a judgment again ("no, nor ever shall occur again") against those whom He called His People.

    And that's the thing about the utter magnitude of taking a life: you not only take the person's life, but you also take every life that would have descended from that person, into time eternal. You cut off the entire lineage from that moment forward, no matter who might have come into the world centuries or millennia later. The lineage is simply ended. Period.

    If, by "in the end" you mean the end of the Jewish system of things in 70CE, then yes. If you mean "in the end" in a future sense, then no. This is based on what I read in the Revelation:

    Then each of them was given a white robe, and they were told to wait a little longer, until the full number of their fellow servants, their brothers and sisters, were killed just as they had been. —Revelation 6:11, NIV

    This makes it clear that those of the tribes of the sons of Abraham who became believers would all be put to death. At the very least, even if you reject the notion that the "144,000" are taken from among the sons and daughters of Abraham who believed the gospel, you still have to acknowledge the basic core reality that in order to be counted among the "144,000," you must die a martyr's death. Which makes the Watchtower's position on the matter a silly one when they talk of those of their "anointed class" who peacefully die in their sleep going to their inheritance. Anyone today who holds to the Watchtower's theology and believes themselves "anointed" yet dies anything other than a martyr's death is NOT part of the "144,000."

    Again, I can only point you to the Revelation's statement on that. The "full number" and "144,000" represent the very same thing, and as I've already cited the passage above, I won't do so again here. The account specifies that these ones are drawn from each of the named tribes of the sons and daughters of Abraham, and died a martyr's death in the years leading up to 70CE, and into the closing of the first century. This would've certainly included the apostles.

    Cornelius, as a Gentile, is included in the "great crowd" which will be drawn from all of the nations.

    Well, I can only speak for myself when I say that I believe what the account says. Keep in mind that "12,000" is symbolic, just as "144,000" is symbolic, and is composed of 12 (with its theological symbolism) and "thousand," which elevates the 12 to an nth order of magnitute. I understand it to mean that there will be a "full number" drawn from each of the aforementioned tribes, and that not one will be found missing.

    So to answer your question: yes, I am sure that some actual number from each tribe were "approved" for the Kingdom, just as Jesus said, and that they were followers of the Christ. How many, literally, there were doesn't seem to bear a relevance here since the vision resorts to the theological symbolisms embodied within the use of "12" to the thousandsth degree as well as the use of "12" times "12" to the thousandsth degree— and the divine assuredness behind both that not one will be found missing.

    ~ Earthbound ~
     
    Last edited by a moderator: Mar 19, 2016
  10. 3,812
    736
    113
    Joshuastone7

    Joshuastone7 Administrator Staff Member

    Joined:
    Jan 26, 2013
    Messages:
    3,812
    Likes Received:
    736
    Trophy Points:
    113
    Gender:
    Male
    Home Page:
    Earthbound, good morning...

    I believe most of our disconnect comes from chronology. When something happens changes everything as to who it happens too. Such as the scripture you quoted here;

    You see, I believe this moment happens deep in the time of the end, and reflects those who are resurrected of the 144k and those still alive on the earth of this number. Meaning a smaller number then the 144k would be resurrected while some still alive of the 144k would still be alive. I believe some of the 144k will still be killed after they have been numbered.

    Therefore there really is no reason to go on about who individuals are in prophecy, without the when...

    I think it becomes a fruitless endeavor to go back and forth about identities while the when is also disagreed. So instead I have a few more questions just to understand your side, and see where it leads.

    Why are the tribes of Ephraim and Dan excluded from the 12 (Revelation 7:6), and Manasseh who is one of the sons of Joseph take his place?

    If you say the 144k and 12k are symbolic, then why aren't the tribes symbolic? (Both ideas face this issue.)

    Again, doesn't this come down to the when? If they 144k were all chosen in the first century then you don't have to consider genetics in the future right? So the when (to me) seems to be the biggest and most important question. Without the understanding of "when" we are debating the who's in two different time periods, and how they fit into that time period.

    So with that said, as you mentioned, Revelation was written after 70 CE, so therefore when do you place Rev 11:2,3? "But as for the courtyard that is outside the temple sanctuary, leave it out and do not measure it, because it has been given to the nations, and they will trample the holy city underfoot for 42 months. I will cause my two witnesses to prophesy for 1,260 days dressed in sackcloth.”

    Why are the 144k said to be virgins, and are you saying they are only men? Are you saying everything's symbolic except the tribes names? (and don't forget the discrepancy in the naming of them)

    Could we not take your understanding all the way through and say that only physical Israelite's will survive? If we argue the great crowd is also the 144k, in your understanding that would make only physical Jews depicted.

    Thank you...
     
  11. 0
    0
    0
    Earthbound

    Earthbound Guest


    Christian greetings, JoshuaStone7,

    Let’s see what the Bible record shows, since we’re not told plainly why they were excluded.

    And I heard the number of those who were sealed, a hundred and forty-four thousand, sealed out of every tribe of the sons of Israel:
    Out of the tribe of Judah twelve thousand sealed; Out of the tribe of Reu'ben twelve thousand; Out of the tribe of Gad twelve thousand; out of the tribe of Ash'er twelve thousand; Out of the tribe of Naph'ta·li twelve thousand; Out of the tribe of Ma·nas'seh twelve thousand; out of the tribe of Sim'e·on twelve thousand; Out of the tribe of Le'vi twelve thousand; Out of the tribe of Is'sa·char twelve thousand; out of the tribe of Zeb'u·lun twelve thousand; Out of the tribe of Joseph twelve thousand; Out of the tribe of Benjamin twelve thousand sealed.
    — Revelation 7:4-8, NWT

    Now there were twelve sons of Jacob--the sons of Leah: Reuben, Jacob's firstborn, then Simeon and Levi and Judah and Issachar and Zebulun; the sons of Rachel: Joseph and Benjamin; and the sons of Bilhah, Rachel's maid: Dan and Naphtali; and the sons of Zilpah, Leah's maid: Gad and Asher. These are the sons of Jacob who were born to him in Paddan-aram. — Genesis 35:23-26, NASB

    Let’s start with Dan. Dan was one of two sons born of Bilhah, and descended from Jacob, that is, Israel. First, we know that they lost their inheritance, indicating a lack of faith in Jehovah’s help them overcome their enemies.

    Later, when the descendants of Dan lost their territory, they went up and attacked Leshem. —Joshua 19:47, ISV

    And then we see where their faithlessness was taking them as they turned to idolatry.

    “And those who worship and swear by the idols of Samaria, Dan, and Beersheba will fall down, never to rise again." — Amos 8:14, HCSB

    Based more on this scripture than the one I cited before, seems a pretty solid explanation for why the tribe of Dan would be left out of the “144,000.”

    And what about Ephraim’s tribe not being mentioned?

    Again, I would direct you to recorded record:

    And he proceeded to reject the tent of Joseph; And the tribe of E'phra·im he did not choose. — Psalms 78:67, NWT

    "The error of E'phra·im is wrapped up, his sin is treasured up. The labor pangs of a woman giving birth are what will come to him. He is a son not wise, for in season he will not stand still at the breaking forth of sons [from the womb].
    "From the hand of She'ol I shall redeem them; from death I shall recover them
    .” — Hosea 13:12-14a, NWT

    Zechariah, Chapter 10 and vv6-9, seems to be saying that the Tribe of Ephraim was scattered amongst the nations, but I’d have to do more research on this.

    Anyhow, these two scriptures talking about Ephraim provide a reasonable explanation as to why the Tribe of Ephraim is left off the list.

    However, it might not mean anything at all, too, since there are variations amongst the three listings of the Tribes of Israel where names are omitted in one list but not another.


    And if additional reason is needed for Jehovah to leave Ephraim off the list of the 144,000 who shall be redeemed from among the sons and daughters of Jacob:

    And Hez·e·ki'ah proceeded to send to all Israel and Judah, and even letters he wrote to E'phra·im and Ma·nas'seh, to come to the house of Jehovah in Jerusalem to hold the passover to Jehovah the God of Israel… So the runners continued on, passing along from city to city throughout the land of E'phra·im and Ma·nas'seh, even to Zeb'u·lun; but they were continually speaking in mockery of them and deriding them.— 2 Chronicles 30:1, 10, NWT

    I’ll move to your next question in a separate response to keep these short and remove the risk of things going kablooey on me.

    ~ Earthbound ~
     
  12. 0
    0
    0
    Earthbound

    Earthbound Guest

    That’s just it: they are symbolic. Or representative. In an earlier post, I pointed to the scriptures I see as supporting my current understanding that the descendants of Israel who became believers constituted the “little flock” Jesus mentions, and these same are seen in the vision captured by Revelation Chapter 7. The listing of the tribes is merely a message to the Jewish Christians that they “have been approved” for the Messianic Kingdom, in probably the same sense that we as Gentile Christians read the letters to the congregations found throughout Revelation 2:1 to 3:22— as a message of encouragement, of warning, and of judgment, valid even to this day.

    For Jews, lineage was everything. No wonder, then, that the revelation about the "144,000" would be done using symbols which Jewish Christians would understand from their culture and traditions, and new understandings as followers of Christ.

    Based on my previous post, it would seem that Jewish Christians in the first century understood why Dan and Ephraim were not on the list, too, if the Biblical historical record I cited in the previous post is accurate.

    Just to be clear: That the tribes are named doesn’t mean that their birth records were checked and verified.

    Rather:

    But as many as received Him, to them He gave the right to become children of God, even to those who believe in His name…— John 1:12, NASB

    The offer was extended first to the Jews, resulting in the formation of the "little flock," also seen as the "144,000." These would see their lives taken from them because of their faith unto death.

    After the Jews, the invitation went out to the Gentiles, that “great crowd” from every nation that has existed, right down to this day, even as the Judgment of the Nations is concurrently underway and approaching the sentencing phase as Jehovah brings to ruin those ruining the Earth.


    ~ Earthbound ~
     
  13. 0
    0
    0
    Earthbound

    Earthbound Guest

    Christian greetings once more, JoshuaStone7,

    I skipped over
    and
    for the time being. In the first case, because that should probably be put in a separate post of discussions as it takes us away from the subject of Revelation 7 and 14 insofar as identifying the "144,000."

    In the second case, I will have to respond tomorrow about the "virgins."

    Before I close for the night, though, I do need to respond to the following:

    If memory serves, I had mentioned in the very early part of the discussion that the "144,000" and "great crowd" are one and the same. Subsequently (I think) to writing that, I apologized for talking out of my hat, as I was relying mostly on memory. Going back and actually reading the context and referring to my notes from years past, I confessed the error and asked that I start the discussion over.

    Presently, I understand them to be separate groups for the time being, until the Messianic Kingdom is inaugurated. We're still in the preparation stage, and have been since the foundation of Christianity was laid. The Jewish Christians are referred to as the "144,000" and Gentile Christians are seen as a "great crowd" "no man was able to number." Not to put too fine a point on it, but there are a LOT more Gentile Christians than there are Jewish Christians today, and surely that can be entered into evidence here.

    In due course, yes, the two will be one, although I would speculate that the Jewish Christians will be our Father's favored, for He has been with them from the beginning. But who am I to be jealous or resentful, if I'm in the Kingdom as well. He loves both Jewish and Gentile Christian equally, does He not? :)

    ~ Earthbound ~
     
  14. 0
    0
    0
    Earthbound

    Earthbound Guest

    Christian greetings, Joshua and anyone else reading the discussion!

    I believe you are referring back to Revelation, Chapter 14, where we read:

    And I saw. And look! {The} Lamb having stood on Mount Zion, and with Him {a number,} 144 thousands [i.e. 144,000], having His name and the name of His Father having been written on their foreheads.

    And I heard a voice out of heaven, like a voice of many waters and like a voice of great thunder, and the voice which I heard [was] like harpists harping with their harps.

    And they sing a new song before the throne and before the four living creatures and the elders, and no one was being able to learn the song except the 144 thousands, the ones having been redeemed from the earth. These are [those] who were not defiled with women, for they are virgins. These are the ones following the Lamb wherever He is going. These were redeemed by Jesus from among people, a first-fruit to God and to the Lamb. And deceit [or, treachery] was not found in their mouth, for they are blameless.— Revelation 14:1-5, ALT

    Let’s start with how the expression is used throughout the Bible to help bring some context to the discussion:

    …this is the Word that Jehovah spoke concerning him: The virgin daughter of Zion has despised you and laughed you to scorn; the daughter of Jerusalem has shaken her head behind you. — 2 Kings 19:21, LITV

    this is the Word Jehovah has spoken about him: The virgin, the daughter of Zion, has despised you, laughing you to scorn; the daughter of Jerusalem has shaken the head behind you. — Isaiah 37:22, LITV

    And you shall speak this Word to them: Let my eyes run down with tears night and day, and do not let them cease. For the virgin daughter of my people is broken with a great break, with a very grievous blow. — Jeremiah 14:17, LITV

    So Jehovah says this: Ask now among the nations, Who has heard things like these? The virgin of Israel has done a very horrible thing. — Jeremiah 18:13, LITV

    Again I will build you, and you shall be built again, O virgin of Israel. You will again put on your tambourines and go forth in the dance of those making merry. — Jeremiah 31:4, LITV

    Then the virgin shall rejoice in the dance, both young men and elders together. For I will turn their mourning into joy, and will comfort them and make them rejoice from their sorrow. — Jeremiah 31:13, LITV

    From these passages I understand that Jehovah considered His people and expected his people to remain “virgin.” Obviously not literally virgins and thus without engaging in sexual relations within the blessing of marriage.

    It was, as will become evident from the scriptures I’ll provide to support the point, a matter of purity from idolatry and other acts of betrayal to their Lord, Jehovah:

    These will be done to you because you have whored after the nations, because you are defiled with their idols. You have walked in the way of your sister, and I will give her cup into your hand. So says the Lord Jehovah: You shall drink your sister's cup deep and wide; you shall be laughed at and mocked, for it holds much… Therefore the Lord Jehovah says this: Because you have forgotten Me and cast Me behind your back, so also you bear your wickedness and your adulteries. And Jehovah said to me, Son of man, will you judge Oholah and Oholibah? Then declare to them their abominations. — Ezekiel 30-32, 35-36, LITV

    They say, If a man sends away his wife, and she goes from him and will be for another man, will he return to her again? Would not that land be greatly defiled? But you play the harlot with many lovers; yet would you come back to Me, says Jehovah. Lift up your eyes on the bare heights and see. Where have you not been lain with? By the highways you have sat for them, like an Arab in the desert. And you have defiled the land with your fornications and with your evil… And the forehead of a woman, a harlot, was to you; you refused to be ashamed. — Jeremiah 3:1-2, 3b, LITV

    And finally, the apostle Paul writes:

    For I am jealous over you with a jealousy of God. For I have promised you to one Man, to present you a pure virgin to Christ. — 2 Corinthians 11:2, LITV

    Based on the above scriptures (and several others I left out for time’s sake), when I read that these who made up the “144,000” “were not defiled with women,” it goes to the long-standing expectation on the part of Jehovah that His people be clean morally and spiritually by remaining separate from the nations. As we look at the history of the Jews, we can see that they had affairs throughout their marriage by covenant with Jehovah. But Jehovah preserved a remnant from the apostate nation of Israel, and they became the foundation upon which Christianity grew, first among the Jews and then among the Gentiles who came to believe.

    The women referred to here when we read that the “144,000” were not defiled could reasonably be identified, as well:

    And on her forehead was a name having been written: Mystery, Babylon the Great, the Mother of the Harlots and of the Abominations of the Earth.— Revelation 17:5, LITV

    If Babylon is seen here as “the Mother” of harlots, then it follows that she had daughters. Further, Jehovah’s view on intermarriage between His people and the people of the nations is very firmly established throughout the Biblical record.

    However, this remnant of the children of Jacob remained faithful in their keeping Jehovah’s commands, and in following the one whom Jehovah sent. As a result, they were redeemed from among men as a “firstfruit” to Jehovah and to the Lamb. “Firstfruit” is a translation from aparchē and means "a beginning of sacrifice," so it makes sense that this is speaking of the first century Jewish believers. They were the ones who began the movement which required that every believer sacrifice self and become followers of the Christ.

    To launch all of that into a future event, unfortunately (and strictly in my own estimation), creates an unnecessary conflict of logic in that “a beginning of sacrifice” makes little sense at the ending of the Gentile system of things which we appear to be approaching in our day, rather than at its beginning, following the destruction of Jerusalem in 70CE.

    Do not despise these small beginnings, for the LORD rejoices to see the work begin, to see the plumb line in Zerubbabel's hand. —Zechariah 4:40, CSB

    Therefore He said to them, Indeed, the harvest is much, but the laborers are few. Therefore, pray to the Lord of the harvest, that He send out workers into His harvest. — Luke 10:2, LITV

    ~ Earthbound ~
     
  15. 3,812
    736
    113
    Joshuastone7

    Joshuastone7 Administrator Staff Member

    Joined:
    Jan 26, 2013
    Messages:
    3,812
    Likes Received:
    736
    Trophy Points:
    113
    Gender:
    Male
    Home Page:
    Greetings brother... I have delayed a little in response because I'm not sure our debate really is focused in the right direction. If we argue the who without the when we completely take the who out of context. So therein lies the difficulty in how to respond, but I guess in the end, along the way, we learn from each other.

    I have to go back to the moment Cornelius was grafted into the olive tree. I can't see, or understand in scripture how Cornelius does not become part of that 144k. Scripture tells us he becomes a Jew, an Israelite once his conduct aligns with the teachings of Christ. Peter is shown a vision that was the promised keys from Christ to graft in the gentiles to the olive tree, meaning at which point Cornelius was in union with Christ. To say otherwise (to me) makes Jehovah a genetic God, one looking at genes to fulfill promises. Yes in the OT such things were the norm, but so was the putting to death of sinners, and fornication. So the old was put away...

    Look at 1 Cor 12:13; "For by one Spirit are we all baptized into one body, whether we be Jews or Gentiles, whether we be bond or free; and have been all made to drink into one Spirit."

    Here the Jew and Gentile are one body, and can clearly be argued (IMO) that both become part of the body of Christ, the "union" with him in his bride. As well, as it pertains to the 144k, Rev 14 tells us those in that "union" with Christ will be killed in the time of the end, after having been seen standing with Christ, look;

    Rev 14:13 "“Write: Happy are the dead who die in union with the Lord from this time onward."

    That moment occurs deep in the time of the end, in our future.

    The Davadic covenant was fulfilled in the 70th week of Dan 9. It began with Christ Jesus's baptism, and ended with Cornelius's baptism as part of the keys given to Peter, opening up the kingdom covenant to the Gentiles. That means the covenant made with David ended strictly to the Jews 2000 years ago, and in fact just as 1 Cor tells us "Jew and Gentile" become one body in the new covenant. The Jew and Israelite being anyone who's conduct is in line with the teachings of Christ. (Rom 2:29, Rom 9:6, Gal 6:16) Brother, this is what I understand in scripture.

    Any prophecy pertaining to Israel and the Jews must encompass the whole body, or whole olive tree no matter who is grafted on, from the moment Peter used the key allowing anyone to become a Jew and part of Israel. How can we say only this branch, or that branch is singled out? Yes I understand the 12 tribes are named in Rev, but if you claim every other part of the depiction is a metaphor, how can you say only the names of the tribes are literal?

    My guess is that Utuna is correct when he said here:

     
  16. 0
    0
    0
    Frank Conger

    Frank Conger Guest

    Hi Joshua:

    It is an interesting thing about the Hebrew language and culture. The word Israel can mean the name that God gave to Jacob, or it can mean the literal nation of Israel made up of all it's parts. Yes, Israel can mean Jesus because Jesus is the greater Jacob and is the Father of all those in that covenant with God, who are actually not the genetic sons of Jacob, but the adopted sons of God. But Jehovah has more adopted Sons than just those that will be part of the 144,000 bride of Christ.

    54 “Shout joyfully, you barren woman who has not given birth!+ Become cheerful and cry out for joy,+ you who never had birth pains,+ For the sons* of the desolate one are more numerous Than the sons of the woman with a husband,”*+ says Jehovah. Isaiah 54:1

    Clearly, the "barren women" is the Holy Spirit who does not have labor pains when it brings forth children or Son's for God. You will notice that this "mother" will have more children than actual Israel will have. This creates a dilemma, because Jehovah's Witnesses believe that only 144,000 are Sons of God. But there were way more than 144,000 Son's in earthly Israel.

    Plus, a nation is not just it's leaders (Kings). A Nation is it's Kings, it's Lord's, it's Priest's, it's Citizens. There are millions of people over time who have been adopted by Jehovah God as Son's through his Holy Spirit, but only 144,000 of these Son's will be a part of Jesus Bride. You can be adopted as a "Son of God" without being part of Christ's Bride, they are two distinct groups.

    Israel is primarily those that will rule in the Kingdom of God (both in heaven and on earth), but in the broadest sense also includes those that will be it's Priest's and citizens as well. You have to understand more about covenants and with whom and when these covenants were made in order to understand the whole picture.

    When Adam sinned, mankind constructively came to an end. Jesus then stepped forward and agreed to be the ransom for Adam. He agreed with Jehovah that if Jehovah would let mankind continue to live that he would come to the earth (leaving his angelic soul or body in heaven) and die as a ransom for Adam (which ransoms all of Adam progeny). This was the beginning of the "world" of mankind, because without a covenant or legal agreement with God, Jehovah could not (legally) allow them to continue living because they had clearly broken his law and the penalty for that was death (without a ransom that is). This is a separate covenant than the one that he made, and continues to make at every Passover as a "covenant" or marriage proposal to his 'wife'. Both are spirit covenants, but you can be a part of the first (Adam) without being a part of the "marriage covenant" to be a part of Jesus Bride. We call the first covenant the ARC which stands for Angelic Ransom Covenant as all in that covenant will be spirits, or angels (Sons of God). The Covenant that Jesus made with his Bride is the First New Covenant and was with "only" those that will be "not only" Sons of God, but will also be a part of the Bride of Christ. These are in four covenants. The ARC, the CRC, the FRC and the A1C.

    That's why there should be four loaves and four cups at the Passover as there was at every Jewish Passover from Egypt to Jerusalem in 33 CE. Each covenant is for a separate purpose and different ones are in each of the covenants. Some are in more than one.

    Every person who will gain life in God's Kingdom will be and must be a part of a "salvation" covenant with God. Not all are part of the 1NC or First New Covenant (Bride of Christ), some are just starting out in their faith in God, these are in the first covenant of Abraham the 1AC, then there are those who not only have the faith of Abraham but are in the FRC (Faith Ransom Covenant), the sealing covenant of the 1AC, their faith has been tested and they have passed. There are those who are in the CRC (Church Ransom Covenant) they have the faith of Abraham, that covenant was sealed by the FRC and they have joined a true faith (Judaism, First Century Christianity, Jehovah's Witnesses) for instance. Then there is the 1NC or the First New Covenant that Jesus made at the last Passover before his death. These ones are in all four covenants, they were first in the 1AC when they had simple faith like Abraham, then they enter the FRC when their faith is sealed through test, then their sealed faith inspired them to search for and join a true faith and symbolize that faith by circumcision in the case of the Jews and Baptism in the case of Christians. Lastly, they may be chosen by God and his Holy Spirit to be a part of Jesus Bride, this is the 1NC.

    If you had four loaves like the Jews customarily had at the Passover (and each loaf and cup had it's own separate significance for the Jews). Each covenant would have it's own loaf (body)&(blood). If you were a part of that covenant you would partake of that loaf, making you a composite part of that whole body and you would drink that cup which would symbolize the blood of that body (covenant) has circulating through it. If you were a part of one of the other covenants you would partake of that loaf and drink of that cup as well.

    If you were a member of Christ's Bride you could partake of all of them because you are a part of them all. You had the simple faith of Abraham (eat and drink the 1AC), you had your faith sealed under test so you could (eat and drink the FRC), you symbolized your faith by seeking out and joining a true faith and symbolized that by baptism, so you can (eat and drink of the CRC), and you are a part of the Bride of Christ, so you can (eat and drink of the First New Covenant the 1NC). Some eat & drink 3. Some eat and drink 2 and some only eat and drink 1, the 1AC.

    In this model everyone but those without even small faith in God have a "salvation" covenant with God that they could "celebrate" at the Passover. It would be a much more joyous "celebration", don't you think.

    It is much more involved than this but this should give you an idea of how the memorial should be celebrated.

    Frank
     

Share This Page