Oh Frank, you make me so sad, what a waste of a good brother....if there is anything I can do..please just say Sis thinking
Dear sis Thinking, I understand the causes of your concern and I praise the beautiful motives that incite you to speak out. However : I'm not talking here on Josh's behalf too, only on mine. If he wants to chip in and have his say, I'm sure that he'll have it in due time and in proper ways. Nevertheless, I already know that our opinions are alike regarding what follows. 1) Being administrator of this forum doesn't mean to be a spiritual adviser or a father confessor of some sort. We're in charge of the technical, administrative and social aspects only. Each member of this forum must abide by the rules stipulated in the "Terms of Use" and a moderator was appointed to enforce them. If the "Terms of Use" were ever breached, the moderator is empowered to take conclusive decisions. In that regard, the moderator is like the administrators, she wears two hats. It's up to her to decide under which one of the both of them she wants to intervene. 2) a) On personal grounds, I may have to have my say, which I often have. Regarding Frank, I already expressed my point of view in a previous post on this thread and I don't see the need to reiterate it here and now a second time. The belief contained in his website is off base and that's manifest and well-known. There is no need to write reams so as to debunk something that is obviously erroneous. Moreover, we've known Frank for years and learned to appreciate him. He loves Jehovah and loves studying, we all can wholeheartedly give him that. Contrary to some rabid Bible-thumping oddballs out there on Internet or to some "I'm-a-victim-so-why-don't-your-conscience-go-fly-a-kite" ?, he's balanced and respectful. He never tried to impose his beliefs and opinion on us (he even said that he'd use PMs instead to that end) and he never tried to tell people what they should do, regardless of the consequences in their lives. Not that I know of... Besides, there are countless different opinions, beliefs and takes expressed here on this forum and some are as erroneous as his, even some of mine included. Here was my opinion. b) A few years ago, I may have seen things differently. Personal harships have taught me lessons the hard way. Once bitten, twice shy. You can't help someone who doesn't truly want help. Said otherwise, that's not because someone needs help that they want help. You can't help someone to believe something if they don't want to believe it. Your right to be helpful stops where their right to decide to accept your help or not comes in... Personally, I'm ok to help but I'll never be an enabler, never ever. I'll never act like the GB, over-protecting people to the point that they're unable to tell their right side from their left on spiritual grounds. I may have my say now and then but people make what ever they want to make with it. If they want to believe in spiritual fables and in self-proclaimed prophets instead, that saddens me but that's not my business. I've posted enough stuff on this forum and have spent so many hours writing them in the last past years that I consider that I've said my piece for good. If someone doesn't understand now, they'll never understand unless a miracle takes place.... Now, come what may... I don't want to be the spiritual cop/shrink on duty. I don't belong to "the congregation for the doctrine of the faith". Although I may have my personal opinion about things, I purposefully refuse to strive trying to debunk each and every new dogma put forward (or prophet) on Internet. I may make a couple of meaningful comments about them once in a while but unless under urgent and/or compelling circumstances, that's all I'll say. Edit : I've found an article that explains "enabling" better than the previous one, therefore, I modified the link.
" Hi Sis: just keep your ears open for the call of the fine shepherd and answer that call when it comes. It has little or nothing to do with me. Just keep listening and you will hear. frank
Dear Frank, Yes, I was being playful. I agree with you that there is only very little knowledge about climatic issues and that also, among other things, this field as a full-fledged scientific branch is rather recent, compared with other ones. However, they learn and understand new things every day and the latter aspect is truly impressive. Personally, I do think that the anthropomorphic global warming is a real thing but that the governments and the multinational companies take advantage of it to increase tax rates, create new consumer needs and to force people to change their old customs and adopt new ones against their will. All of this is also a means for people and governments to make peace with their qualms so they can keep polluting all they want. Money is what makes this world go round... I've read the article you posted about that subject on another thread. Sorry for the delay, work has been tough lately. I'll have to find 1-2 hours in order to type an answer down in the following days.
Its okay Utuna, each must abide by their own concience on the matter. i have worried about the scriptures in Revelation for some time now concerning the forum.......it's been so great to let down ones guard here and talk freely....not having to bite ones tongue and keep quiet about so many important issues.....but I guess we differ on something still.....we are brothers and sisters...servants of Jehovah before we are moderators or whatever.....those scriptures follow us in our day to day life no matter what we do or where we are...in fact we ARE those scriptures....we become those principles.......I'm sorry if I have caused a problem or any type of bad feelings here amongst any members.......I've just fought too long and far too hard ...I feel as I have too many wounds to risk my standing before Jehovah....I could be wrong I admit but it doesn't feel like it so therefore I would be sinning against my own conscious ........it all gets so tiring doesn't it. You have all been great, yes you too frank and I will listen for the fine Shepard as I too expect him to speak to us also......hopefully we will all meetup soon and really have such a great time just experiencing each others personalities....in a world that will just blow us away...hey Bro T....I'll meet you in that field..haha Heaps and heaps of Love to you all sis thinkingxxx
I have one tiny question. if I did understand perfectly revelation what am I supposed to do with that knowledge? I can't change what is written.
Well said all. And Thinking "it all gets so tiring doesn't it." I couldn't agree more. We all believe the same thing, is the short end of it; so these 'doctrinal' 'idea' issues are distractions really. It will be a relief when this system is gone, and we can just be in peace.
I've been following this thread for a couple of days with interest. These are just my thoughts and I accept that I may be wrong regarding these viewpoints. I see the forum as being a mini-kingdom hall, a "cyber" congregation. As in a real life Hall, there may be people who attend who are disfellowshipped or disassociated. I may not agree with absolutely everything that other posters say but I do believe that they have a love for Jehovah and are serious about searching for the truth and for accurate knowledge. I believe their heart is in the right place. I think that whatever mistaken ideas we may have, these will become obvious to us as we get a better understanding of the Scriptures and we will make the needed adjustments, because we'll recognise that. I would take issue with anyone who started to "spout off" about the Trinity, etc. Or if someone started to "beat every one over the head" with erroneous teachings using an "in your face style" delivery. Wallflower
Ditto. I pray that Jehovah continue to support all of us as we endure to the end of this system. Wallflower
what concerns me most in revelation is the scriptures that say that the wicked will have no rest day or night as they are tormented forever and ever.. to this day many have tried to explain that its symbolic or something. now Jehovah is the author of that bible and I just can't bring myself to believe that this very graphic warning is a metaphor. yes after hearing all the explanations of those scriptures something tells me do not monkey around with my word,just read it as written.
Suit yourself, my dear sister ! I respect your conscience, your feelings and your decisions. You'll be missed...
Dear JIG, Please read : "“For just as the new heavens and the new earth that I am making are standing before me,†is the utterance of Jehovah, “so the offspring of YOU people and the name of YOU people will keep standing.†“And it will certainly occur that from new moon to new moon and from sabbath to sabbath all flesh will come in to bow down before me,†Jehovah has said. “And they will actually go forth and look upon the carcasses of the men that were transgressing against me; for the very worms upon them will not die and their fire itself will not be extinguished, and they must become something repulsive to all flesh.â€" - Is. 66:22-24 And yet....
utunea, what does the scripture mean that says they will be tormented and have no rest day or night forever? being killed and thrown into a ever burning trash pile is a nasty end but its an end. I don't like the scripture that says tormented without rest forever it bothers me.neither do I like the rich man and Lazarus story. I specially don't like the scripture that says it is appointed that all men must die but after that the judgement. why would Jehovah wake up a dead person just to kill him again?
JIG - If you don't mind. The bible uses metaphor CONSTANTLY. Right? Look at the 'rich man' and Lazarus! This is a metaphorical story about the transition from the old covenant to the new covenant (and how the Jews rejected it)! NOT a story about 'hell'. Lazarus = new covenant (gentiles, Christianity) Rich man = old covenant (Jews) The 'rich man' rejects the covenant and "If they do not listen to Moses and the Prophets, they will not be convinced even if someone rises from the dead." Recall Jesus said that 'children throw bread to the dogs [from table scraps]' - note that Lazarus is "longing to eat what fell from the rich man’s table". Was Jesus talking about the morality of throwing bread to dogs? Or was it a metaphor about Gentiles receiving the 'free gift' and knowledge of God? Make sense? ----- Furthermore - Jehovah is love right? Then you have two options: A) either God is NOT love, and torments people forever OR B) God is love, and you're simply reading the Bible without connecting the metaphorical dots ----- What is the judgment? Is it God resurrecting people and then condemning them? (according to Christendom, yes) What do the Jehovah's Witnesses say? The judgment is the 1000 year reign of Christ! At the end of which is the final test. The judgment is the resurrection of ALL people to the 1000 year reign (save for those with the mark) Get back to the kingdom hall JIG, this is Bible 101!
I was taught exactly what you just said at the kingdom hall. all I can say is if it turns out their is a hell of finite or infinite punishment Jehovah's witnesses will be in deep do doooo! as for me if someone asks me I'm going to read the bible as its written and admonish that person to pray to Jehovah for wisdom to understand. I'm not convinced either way. so I'm going to do the safe thing..