"Many false prophets will arise and mislead many" One of the key markers of the end times is "false prophets" rising up to pull people in various directions. Never discussing real prophecy... Why? To discredit Bible prophecy. What a Cahn job!
What's wrong Frank, did it feel a little close to home? We are still moving through this September, where is the fall of the US that you said was just a couple days away? Don't worry, I'm not trying to single you out, just to help open your eyes to a few things. The seven year cycle from the modern day Israel's establishment has no Biblical association what's so ever, let alone the covenant held in place for the many for one week in Dan 9 ended when Cornelius was baptized, making Israel today all those who worship Jehovah, not a physical strip of land.
I don't know Josh .... Both (and more) ideas can be true, can't they? - God's people are those who worship him through his Son Jesus (John 8) - God's people are all humans who come into a future relationship with him (Acts 17) - God's people are physical Israelites (promise to Abraham) I see the same thing in prophecy: - Jerusalem is the spiritual temple (Romans) - Jerusalem is the physical place the two witnesses are killed (Revelation) etc, etc. Once WE start drawing lines, Jehovah brings out the bulldozer This is what Jesus did, bulldozed preconceived notions based on human drawn lines.
No, total fraud -- that is the point of this thread My point is we're all fools, and once we start saying "the word of Jehovah is" for anything beyond the clear message of the scriptures (love your neighbor), we're liable for a bulldozing Prophecy is one of the prime items marked for the "loop de loop". The proverbial "good Samaritan" 180. Therefore, a "line" drawn around what is Jerusalem, what is Israel, who are God's people, etc, etc, is a mistake IMO. It's multi-dimensional, a 3D object, not a series of precept -> conclusion -> precept -> conclusion = solution The angle of viewing alters the solution.
SingleCell, I think we've discussed this before. The only way to Jehovah is through Christ Jesus, therefore the Jewish faith has to be rejected by Jehovah outright. The Jewish people can no longer have a place in Jehovah's plan and that is seen by 70CE, Jehovah allowed a million Jews to be destroyed for killing the only means of approach to him. As well there can not be any last second reversion for an entire nation at his appearance in the clouds. This idea does not follow all of Christs preaching campaign. Regardless of the prophecy in Dan 9 telling us that the covenant for a Messiah was held for the "Many" (Jews) for only one week from Jesus baptism till Cornelius was baptized the Jewish faith rejects Christ outright and without accurate knowledge there is no way they have a place in Jehovah's plan. Some will even believe in Christ and do many works in his name and he will still tell them to get away from him. It is not enough to change ones mind once they see Christ face to face coming to destroy them, it is too late at that point. "Israel" became all of mankind through the keys Peter held. The physical nation of Israel today is nothing but a pipe dream set up by the western world, and has nothing to do with prophecy in the time of the end. Acts 10:9-16 "The next day as they were continuing on their journey and were approaching the city, Peter went up to the housetop about the sixth hour to pray. But he became very hungry and wanted to eat. While they were preparing the meal, he fell into a trance and saw heaven opened and something descending like a great linen sheet being let down by its four corners on the earth; and in it were all sorts of four-footed animals and reptiles of the earth and birds of heaven. Then a voice said to him: “Get up, Peter, slaughter and eat!†But Peter said: “Not at all, Lord, because I have never eaten anything defiled and unclean.†And the voice spoke again to him, the second time: “Stop calling defiled the things God has cleansed.†This happened a third time, and immediately it was taken up into heaven." The very next verse shows us the moment "Israel" became all mankind and no longer a genetic people. Acts 10:17 "While Peter was still perplexed about what the vision he had seen could mean, just then the men sent by Cornelius asked where Simon’s house was and stood there at the gate." The moment Cornelius was baptized, "Israel" in prophecy became all mankind who serve God in the four corners/winds of the earth. The restoring of Israel in the time of the end will be a call to rebuild Jerusalem after the WTS comes down, "spiritually". There will be a call just like in Dan 9 and a new "church" will be built that one of the two witnesses Zerubbabel will lay the foundation for here on earth. This is the kings second crop after the hay was cut "WTS" deep in the time of the end. (Amos 7) Every word from Christ Jesus tells us that when he comes in the clouds it will be too late to convert and saying the Jewish nation will some how instantly convert when seeing him goes against what Christ told us it took in order to survive the coming end events. For all will see him in the clouds and nash their teeth for the coming events. Israel today must be of the four winds of the earth and not a physical location, it is the only way all of prophecy coalesces.
SingleCell, could this measuring tool also be used for the Bible as a whole? One could also say the Bible, the Trinity, life after death is all 3D and depends on how the observer is looking at the book, no? If the Bible is absolute on his nature, Christs nature, life after death and the fate of the world, why would it be any different for prophecy. Everything we need is in that back, it's all there for each subject, and to say one is dependent only on the observer would be to say all is dependent on the observer is it not? Should we draw a line on the nature of God, or weather the Bible is from God? How is prophecy any different? They all come from the same book. Could we not say that prophecy has no more different understandings in the world as all of these other subjects? How many believe Jehovah's nature is any number of configurations? Should it not be that there is only one truth of scripture and not that it is dependent on the observer, but on an observer, one who knows their God?
I don't disagree; yet, I do disagree When Paul was speaking to the Greek pagans in Athens, he said this: “Therefore, since we are the children of God, we should not think that the Divine Being is like gold or silver or stone, like something sculptured by the art and design of humans." When John was writing about faith in Jesus, he said this: "But to all who did receive him, who believed in his name, he gave the right to become the children of God," ------------------ Now, which verse is accurate? Are the Greek pagans children of God? Are the believers in Jesus the children of God? ------------------ It seems that when we say "the ONLY possible understanding of X is Y" we become blind. Enter the bulldozer.
Is Jesus God? The answer is fuzzy, it's three dimensional. If you say "no" you're wrong and right. If you say "yes" you're wrong and right. Enter the bulldozer. How much more of a problem do we encounter with prophecy? We have hundreds of assumptions behind the framework you and I both subscribe. [our frameworks are very close] Not to say we can't discover truths in prophecy ... we can. Not trying to be frustrating The assumption that we're wrong is the key to finding less-wrongness. Jehovah may reveal things to his prophets before they happen, but I can't think of a single prophet who deduced prophecy from the scriptures, other than VAGUE understanding through a "metal mirror".
First in Paul's own words; 1Cor 9:20-22 "To the Jews I became as a Jew in order to gain Jews; to those under law I became as under law, though I myself am not under law, in order to gain those under law. To those without law I became as without law, although I am not without law toward God but under law toward Christ, in order to gain those without law. To the weak I became weak, in order to gain the weak. I have become all things to people of all sorts, so that I might by all possible means save some." The cities in Athens were filled with pagan gods made of woods and metals, then in order to reach them he would have needed to approach them with this in mind, coming down to their level and then bringing them up out of their worship of physical objects. Now is it okay just to be a child of God, is it okay to just believe, or does it take more? Mth 18:3 “Truly I say to you, unless you turn around and become as young children, you will by no means enter into the Kingdom of the heavens." Mrk 11:22,23 "In reply Jesus said to them: “Have faith in God. Truly I say to you that whoever tells this mountain, ‘Be lifted up and thrown into the sea,’ and does not doubt in his heart but has faith that what he says is going to happen, he will have it happen." James 2:26 "Indeed, just as the body without spirit is dead, so also faith without works is dead." Do we not need accurate knowledge in order to be saved? Had Judea not listened to Christ and fled when Rome circled the city, would they not have been destroyed? Should we not imagine the faithful left and the unfaithful were abandoned in the city? Mth 24:40 "Then two men will be in the field; one will be taken along and the other abandoned." As much as we want to save everyone, I think IMO scripture is pretty clear that Jehovah sees things a little differently. Such as the flood, how many died that weren't on the ark that had varying ideas about God? Someone else besides Noah's family had to believe Jehovah existed, other then the angels who of course knew. Being "given the right to become children of God" does not necessarily give us free access. The Jewish nation of Israel was given the right to become children of God and rejected Christ Jesus and in so doing lost that privilege. No matter how passive we wish to be toward all mankind, Jehovah is not so humanistic in view.
Dan 9:2 "in the first year of his reign I, Daniel, discerned by the books the number of years mentioned in the word of Jehovah to Jeremiah the prophet to fulfill the desolation of Jerusalem, namely, 70 years."
Absolutely agreed! My point isn't about "who are God's children" though. I'm using that as an example to demonstrate: if we say "X can ONLY mean Y" when reading the Bible, more likely than not, a blinder is put in place. What assumptions predicate X? What assumptions predicate the answer of Y?
Case in point; Jhn 10:30 "I and the Father are one.†Jhn 17:21 "so that they may all be one, just as you, Father, are in union with me and I am in union with you, that they also may be in union with us, so that the world may believe that you sent me."
Right! Daniel had NO CLUE about anything other than "70 years", he saw through the same metal mirror we're looking into. So just like Daniel, I'll join you in saying "1260 days of trampling". But the details of Nebuchadnezzar II, Cyrus, Darius, Belshazzar, the lions den, the 66 ft. statue, the prayer trick, etc, were total unknowns that only faith delivered him through. The "fate" of physical Israel, IMO, is hinted at ..., but the metal mirror prevents a clear picture.
I tend to think he had the knowledge from scripture Jehovah wished him to have in order to do his work. IMO this is no different then us today. Daniel didn't need to know anything about the time of the end, he wouldn't live to see it, but he determined what he needed from scripture for the time he lived in, namely the 70 years, and that's all he did need to know, correct? Besides, all scripture is inspired of God and Christ is the Word who wrote it, therefore we don't have recorded all of what Daniel understood, only what Christ wanted in the book. Regardless he didn't need to understand the prophecies given to him, that was not his work, the 70 weeks were. Today; Jhn 12:40 “He has blinded their eyes and has made their hearts hard, so that they would not see with their eyes and understand with their hearts and turn around and I heal them.†Dan 11:30 "And those having insight among the people will impart understanding to the many." I underlined "those" to point out it appears that not everyone will have the ability from Jehovah to discern from scripture certain aspects of it. It would appear though that "those" would have this ability from Jehovah in order to do his will, his work, and therefore that throws out the idea that all are seeing in a hazy mirror and that all scripture is determined by the observers angle of observance. They saw through a hazy mirror because what they wanted to understand would not be part of their time. Is not Jehovah's angle the only one that matters, and that in fact each scripture truly only has one definition? What makes us think that Amos 3:7 is denoting Jehovah speaking to his prophets in person? Amos 3:7 "For the Sovereign Lord Jehovah will not do a thing Unless he has revealed his confidential matter to his servants the prophets." Is it not possible that Christ/Word knew ahead of time the future when writing scripture that once the internet and modern computers were here that some of us could use such tools to decipher scripture to a point that Jehovah could begin the end, hence the level of writing, just enough for a certain time? Keep in mind the angels battles to come to Daniel, it was not always easy nor long, therefore how much would we need to understand ahead of time in order to make that job easier in the time of the end? Is not everything in scripture defined by itself? Should we imagine just because there are so many beliefs in the world that none can come to a more complete understanding? Case in point, who has more accurate knowledge, a rank and file Catholic or a rank and file JW, a rank and file SDA? Therefore understanding is a sliding scale is it not, and not a light switch?
Agreed with your last post. But that isn't really the topic! The original question was basically "do the Jews in Israel" have anything to do with Jehovah today. I'm unwilling to say YES or NO. Just like the question of "is Jesus God", either absolute answer is wrong unless we qualify WHAT we are talking about. So, do the Jews in Israel have anything to do with Jehovah today? It would seem they do. Romans 11 shows that at some future point the "wool will be lifted" from their eyes. "For God has confined all of them together in disobedience so that he might show all of them mercy" (compare with Zechariah 12) Does that mean they are "God's chosen people in Christ", or that "ALL prophecy" surrounds the "Nation of Israel" as the evangelicals believe? .... of course not.
l don't think we can dismiss the Shemita thing entirely. A new 2008 style economic collaps, but even much worse is still expected by many economists. Also the US could hit the dept ceiling soon. From a biblical point that is what I am waiting for, because I wait for the deadly stroke to one of the heads of the seven headed beast in Revelation 13. What about you, what do you think about that deadly stroke?
Hi Joshua: Here comes your delusional thinking again. I never said anything about modern day Israel having anything to do with Jehovah's prophecy. That is you putting words into my mouth again, you have that awful tendency to do that to others and you should stop doing it. Israel today is not all those that worship Jehovah. The "Israel of God" are all those who are "born again" sons of the Most High. Not all who worship Jehovah today are "sanctified" or "born again". Also, not all "born again" sons of God are part of Jesus Bride, only 144,000 picked by Jehovah and the Holy Spirit are. The others will work in different capacities in the Kingdom. Keep your pants on brother, you will see with your own eyes when the "stone" not cut by hands (cut by the earthbound demons out of the mountain of man's current rulership) hit's both the U.S. and the U.K. squarely on each of the two feet crushing them into powder. But remember, this is a false flag event. They are in essence doing this themselves because they (U.S. & U.K.) will be the proponents of the "image of the beast", which will be the next generation incarnation of the U.N. but will be fierce like the 4th beast described in Daniel 7. They know their system is shot anyway. They need to clear out the refuse of the old and bring in the new and hope nobody notices too much. I am very clear on what I believe and teach Joshua, you just don't listen. That's OK though, you don't have to listen to me or anyone else. Just don't put words in my mouth. Especially when you didn't actually listen to anything I had to say in the first place. You only have room in your head for what you believe. That's Ok too, just let me say what I think without you saying I've said things that I never have. If I have been wrong in the past, I don't care. I just continue on trying my best to understand God's Word. I never claimed to be a prophet of Jehovah and I just call it like I see it. There is nothing wrong with being incorrect in trying to explain prophecy, the problem is giving up like the Watchtower did 40 years ago tomorrow. On Elul 30, 1975 they entered into a chronological wilderness, left to wander for 40 years because the GB at that time got squeamish about prophecy. The other churches called them names like false prophet etc and they got their feelings hurt. So, Jehovah has let them wander for 40 years. Well, tomorrow or the next day they will officially be released from that 40 year wandering penalty (don't go by the Jews calendar, they don't know their ass from a hole in the ground or they do and they are just lying. They changed their calendar specifically so they could say Jesus was not the Messiah, and it is now about 4-5 days out of sink). Perhaps then some of Jehovah's Witnesses will again regain the courage to try and understand prophecy and won't be afraid to shout it out! Giving up was the problem, not getting a few predictions wrong. You all operate under the false assumption that Matt. 24:36 says that no one can know the day or the hour. That is not what it says, but not one of you scoffers has ever picked up an interlinear to see what it actually says. "oudeis, oiden" which is literally translated "not one YET has perceived". It is not saying that you cannot perceive the day or the hour, it is saying that "not yet has one perceived" the day or the hour. It is really, really, really hard though because Jehovah's Word is so complex. He has made it purposely difficult. That way, those that really don't want to try won't. They will be afraid that everyone else will call them a false prophet and other terrible names that will mess with your self esteem and confidence. No, the Watchtower should have kept trying to get the day and the hour, but they got tired and lost their trust in Jehovah's ability to guide them just like the Israelite's lost their faith in Jehovah's ability to guide them into the promised land. Please, say whatever you want about me, or about what you believe but quite putting words in my mouth that I never said. OK, deal? Frank