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Small Horns of Dan 7 & 8

Discussion in 'Bible Prophecy' started by Joshuastone7, May 4, 2015.

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    Joshuastone7

    Joshuastone7 Administrator Staff Member

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    So, some new discoveries to share... Or "new light" as the WTS calls it...

    It would appear the two horns in Dan 7 and 8 are not the same entity. The horn in 7 comes from the fourth beast, and the horn in Dan 8 comes from the third beast.

    Of course we know from Gabriel that the battle in 8 was between Medo/Persia and Greece. The first horn being the first king in Alexander the Great, and the four coming up after are his generals that took over after his demise.

    Dan 8:8 "Then the male goat exalted itself exceedingly, but as soon as it became mighty, the great horn was broken; then four conspicuous horns came up instead of the one, toward the four winds of the heavens."

    Now pay attention to the next verses. So it would seam this next horn that comes up from one of the four provinces of Greece is actually Rome itself.

    Dan 8:9 "Out of one of them came another horn, a small one, and it grew very great toward the south and toward the east and toward the Decoration."

    There depicted is the rise of Rome toward the south and east. We also know that it reached all the way to Jerusalem;

    Dan 8:10 "It grew so great that it reached all the way to the army of the heavens, and it caused some of the army and some of the stars to fall to the earth, and it trampled them down. "

    We also see the moment Rome came against Christ;

    Dan 8:11a "It exalted itself even against the Prince of the army"

    As well the "b" part of the scriptures shows how Rome came against the city in 70 CE;

    Dan 8:11b "and from him the constant feature was taken away, and the established place of his sanctuary was thrown down"

    And to continue the next verse reads;

    Dan 8:1 "And an army was given over, together with the constant feature, because of transgression; and it kept throwing truth to the earth, and it acted and had success."

    Gabriel gives us the definition of the vision after verse 15. Notice in verse 23, he says that this horn that comes against the sanctuary is a fierce looking king;

    Dan 8:23 "a fierce-looking king who understands ambiguous sayings will stand up."

    also;

    Dan 8:25 "He will even stand up against the Prince of princes,"

    In Dan 7:7 the fourth beast (Rome) is described in the same manner;

    “After this I kept watching in the visions of the night, and I saw a fourth beast, fearsome and terrifying and unusually strong, and it had large iron teeth."

    Next Gabriel told Daniel that the vision is for the time of the end;

    Dan 8:17 "So he came near to where I was standing, but when he came I was so terrified that I fell facedown. He said to me: “Understand, O son of man, that the vision is for the time of the end"

    Now Gabriel could have been speaking of the end of the Jewish nation however, there seems to be precedence that Gabriel was also speaking of the end of the complete system and a future end in our time as well here;

    Dan 8:25b "He will even stand up against the Prince of princes, but he will be broken without human hand."

    This scripture takes us back to the immense image in Dan 2 where the stone is cut out but not by hands and crushes the image at the feet. There seems to be no doubt that these scriptures intend that Rome would have a role in the future time of the end.

    Now it's the small horn in Dan 7 that comes from this fierce beast, or small horn of Dan 8. So the vision in Dan 8 gives us the birth of the fourth beast in Dan 7 (Rome).

    Therefore the order looks like this;

    Gold/Babylon/Lion
    Silver/Medo-Persia/Bear
    Copper/Greece/Leopard
    Irone/Rome/Fierce best/Small horn Dan 8
    Iron clay mix/Rome & Tower of Babel mix/Small horn Dan 7
     
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    SingleCell

    SingleCell Experienced Member

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    We've argued about this a lot Joshua - what you've laid out here is why we tussle over Revelation 13 :)

    In Revelation 13:1-2 I believe the interpretation is for authenticating which empires the final beast is derivative from.

    In this same line of reasoning, the horns in Daniel are the same, and the seeming discrepancy is actually a mirror of Revelation 13:1-2.

    Authentication via derivative empires.


    In other words, the 'little horn' proceeds from Alexander's Greece, into the Roman system, through the 'iron-clay' post-Roman nation-state system.

    And finally expressing itself out of beasts 'head' from the post-collapse / healed death-stroke / out of abyss (impending WW3 / economic fallout and subsequent recovery) European-Western world into a British-Euro-American conglomerate coupled with the UN.

    (the UN being the image)

    [or perhaps, more technically, the European system are represented by the 7th head and the distinct lamb-dragon 2 horn beast (US-UK)]

    However, ONE statue. One system, and ultimately one prophecy about the empires which precede the concluding assault by the little horn.

    Expressed through history as regional power transferring itself through conceptual similarity, historical events and regional permutations, with a final concluding 'little horn' acting is the final 'Assyrian'.
     
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    Joshuastone7

    Joshuastone7 Administrator Staff Member

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    I've recently been clarifying a lot of what I have written on in the past about these chapters.

    Have you read posts 9 & 10 HERE? It would appear that the clay that mixes with the iron, is the clay of the Tower of Babel.

    I'm not sure I'm following you here.

    It would seem that the only thing we should be seeing is, the death stroke has to be Babylon. It's the only one of the previous 7 world powers that is named alive in the time of the end, after knowing it was destroyed in the past. It would seem that the death stroke that was healed has to be Babylon...
     
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    SingleCell

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    That is an extremely interesting thought, and definitely fits. It began with the 'UN'-esque tower of Babel and concludes in that fashion.

    In a general sense, I would agree.

    But I think the 'clay' has a clear interpretation by correlating other scriptures using clay to represent common-mankind. In other words, the Empire of Rome being mixed with the Democratic Republican system in the West.

    (Roman Empire + 'mankind' || another framework could be Empire + God's Christian people [originally Roman Catholicism])

    Revelation 13:1-2 mention the same beasts found in Daniel 7 / 8. So rather than nebulous 'guesswork' about Revelation 13:1-2 as being distinct nations existing TODAY, they are intended to authenticate WHO is the derivative 7th head (Europe).

    (leopard / bear / lion, with Rome unmentioned for a specific reason, in order for us to understand what the 'clay' represents, which did not exist when John penned Revelation, but becomes clear with a cursory understanding of post-Roman history)

    The intention (IMO) is that Daniel 7 / 8 and Revelation 13 are one prophecy. Daniel 2 is the overview, the others are details to give insight and authenticate who we are talking about.
     
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    SingleCell

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    In other words Joshua, you're starting to agree with the framework I argued with you about for 150+ posts last year ;)

    The difference with what you are explaining here is placing the death-stroke into the distant past, where-as I argued that Rev 13:1-2 is authentication coupling up with Daniel 7 / 8.

    Said another way, Revelation 13:1-2 connects us up with Daniel 7 and 8, and explains why the 'little horn' seems to come from both Greece and Rome.

    Babylon became Persia became Greece became Rome became Europe.

    Europe (and the West) economy detonates (future - the death-stroke).

    It rises from the abyss, the US-UK (Christian lamb) begin speaking like a dragon. Props up the Western world, creates an image of the Democratic Republic through the UN.

    The 'little horn' is then established as the power which will crush Jehovah's people and bring all the world into subjection.

    Persecution of true Christians begin ...
     
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    Joshuastone7

    Joshuastone7 Administrator Staff Member

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    Go back and read Dan 4 again about the heaven high tree. Then go directly to Gen 11 and read the account of the tower. You will notice it's the same story, and if that's the case, then the 7 times are to tell us when the heart of man was returned to the tower/tree after it was taken away by Jehovah.

    Heart of man=Mans will
    Heart of beast=Jehovah's will

    It just so happens that 2520 years after Jehovah confused the languages in Babel, brings us to 325 CE and the Nicene Creed. Mans will to gather together in worship of kings and false gods, in creating a one world religion in opposition to Jehovah. This was the original purpose of the tower, and as well the Nicene Creed and future Papal Rome, Iron/Clay.

    I just ask for a moment to think outside the box, (which I've been doing a lot of recently). Number one, you have to agree that the death stroke that is healed has to be Babylon right? It's the only one of the previous 7 that was destroyed but yet is named alive in Rev. Any other interpretation seems trumped by this fact.

    Next, we have to agree that the small horn that comes from the fierce beast in Dan 7 comes to existence after that beast has already been in existence. It also seems clear that the ten horns are the territories of Rome at the time of the rise of that small horn, and if you have read my posts 9 & 10 HERE then you will notice it seems clear that it is the horns of Heruli, the Ostrogoths, and the Vandals that fell from before the small horn.

    If you notice in chapter 8, the small horn there comes from Greece, one of the 4 generals that took over after Alexander the Great, so therefore it would appear that this horn is actually Rome itself coming to be, you can read of it coming against Jerusalem and killing Jesus in the first century through chapter 8.
     
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    SingleCell

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    OK, I'll give it a chance! Will respond later. Unfortunately I left town right as your Heaven High Tree post was developing, so I have some catching up to do.
     
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    Joshuastone7

    Joshuastone7 Administrator Staff Member

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    You aren't lying when you say we have gone around and around with this subject, and I think you also know I am the first to admit when I'm wrong. I'm not sure yet where we will agree now, but let's continue to explore this issue in this new light (on my part), because I always get much out of it.

    This all started with me when I wanted to address the heaven high tree again in Dan 4. As you may notice it appears I'm leaning toward the tree representing the tower of Babel, or better stated, it's original purpose and the symbol of Babylon itself.

    So therefore the death stroke in Rev 13 and the cutting down of the tree must have been when Jehovah confused the language in about 2196 BCE, and then therefore through Greece (copper band on stump) and from Rome (iron band on stump) came the small horn of Dan 7/Clay mixing with iron when in 325 CE the Nicene Creed voted while gathered together on the nature of God. Then of course we know there after we see the Papal Rome Empire.

    I give it to you, that's an interesting thought. My first thoughts go back to the heaven high tree and the tower of Babel though, and as well Babylon mentioned in Rev.

    Number one, if it's true (and it seems to be irrefutable) that Babylon in Rev is the death stroke that was healed, that means Babylon went down at some point, and for a long time. I see what your saying that perhaps the banding of copper and iron depicts Babylon being each of these future entities, but I don't think that is the purpose of the prophecies. Being cut down, is being cut down. If you read the tree prophecy in Dan 4 you see that it leaves no doubt that this tree is cut down. Neb was completely removed, and someone else reigned.

    Also keep in mind that it would appear that the heart of man that was taken away from him and the tower seems to be the will of man, and the heart of the beast appears to be Jehovah's will, for that is what beasts do.

    Now, when I started this subject again a couple months ago, I told myself I have to figure out what these 7 times are for, or if they are for anything. So if they are for something it must be the time period between having the heart of man taken away, and to when that heart of man is returned, in both Neb's case and the tower of Babel.

    I don't think the purpose of these prophecies are that Babylon continues to live on in the other beasts, where it seems that Babylon is mentioned clearly in Dan 7 as the lion with the heart of man returned to it. That means that after 2520 years of having the heart of the beast, the will of man and the heart of a man is returned to it. By deduction this seems clear that this is the moment the death stroke is healed.

    Babylon has to be the death stroke that is healed in Rev 13 because it's the only previous of the 7 that we know was destroyed, and then comes alive, and I am beginning to believe that the 7 times are to tell us when this happens, and when you think this way, everything else falls in place. This is why the clay bricks of the tower mix with Rome 2520 years after Jehovah took away the heart of man from the tower of Babel made of clay bricks.

    You know, I had thought down that road myself until recently. Look at Dan 8. The small horn is clearly Rome coming against Jerusalem and Jesus.

    Dan 8:9-12 "Out of one of them came another horn, a small one, and it grew very great toward the south and toward the east and toward the Decoration. It grew so great that it reached all the way to the army of the heavens, and it caused some of the army and some of the stars to fall to the earth, and it trampled them down. It exalted itself even against the Prince of the army, and from him the constant feature was taken away, and the established place of his sanctuary was thrown down. And an army was given over, together with the constant feature, because of transgression; and it kept throwing truth to the earth, and it acted and had success."

    It seems clear brother, that is Rome. A small horn that comes from four that use to be one in the third beast. That's clearly Greece and Alexander being the first king, then he dies and his four generals take over and Rome comes from one of them, grows great and comes again the sanctuary and the Prince of the army, "Jesus".

    So if this is the case then the small horn in Dan 7 coming from the fourth beast is obviously not the same. Chapter 8 apparently comes before chapter 7 in the stream of time.

    Now don't get me wrong, these prophecies do have their place in the time of the end, because Gabriel tells us this in chapter 8. So therefore they are a "type" of what will happen in the future, but reading to much into modern countries representing this beast or that seem to be a futile attempt, which can be seen in our past discussions...

    IMO
     
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    This smal horn that grows and becomes greater than the other must depict Donald Trump. Just look how he fits the prophecy more for every day. This smal horn in Daniel 7 is apparently the same as the fierce-looking king in Daniel 8:23-25 and the same king described in Daniel 11: 31 and forward.

    One striking feature is what Daniel 11:39 says and we can see that happen today: "He will give great glory to those who give him recognition..."
    Really those who suck up to Trump, like Mike Pence keep their jobs. Now lately Trump has appointed more such loyal to him persons to govern with him, like his personal doctor.

    This video explains this, that those who are able to suck up to Trump are those who are able to keep their jobs in his administratio.
     
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    jehovahisgod Experienced Member

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    And so people how many of you believe with me that we have entered the prophecy of Daniel where the King of the North and the King of the South engage in the pushing? I think it started about 5 days ago.
     
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    Greetings,
    Many Jews believe Trump is the modern day Cyrus who will bring about the rebuilding of the third temple.

    https://www.haaretz.com/israel-news...yrus-will-he-build-the-third-temple-1.5628538
     

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