in Matthew the apostle's were told by jesus to go and make disciples from peoples of all nations. and get then baptised and such.. today within the watchtower org we have been given watchtowers awakes and pamphlets and prepared in the service meetings how to place them.. the w.b.t.s does a great job placing this material and is far more successful promoting its median than any other median out their.. well jesus did say go make disciples! and the witness sure can make disciples of the w b.t s! but what I'm here for today is to call attention toward the old techniques that the apostles used we call them the gospels! what captures my attention is that the gospels are testimonys from 3 different individuals that tell. #1 who I was and what I did before I met jesus.. #2 under what circumstance did I meet jesus and how did that change me! #3 what did I see jesus do that convinced me that he was my lord? #4 and finally and most important! could I bring my own life's salvation storyline to men just like me and use my story to further the kingdom! were has this technique gone???? when we go preaching from door to door we are preaching a weekly prepared script.. that quite honestly does not give our personal testimony about jesus or what he has done to convince me of his lordship. all three gospels tell how that apostle journeys from a man of the world into a apostle! that's what the gospel is! its how god breathed life into you! so what's wrong with preaching the Gospel? nothing that's what we are supposed to do! the idea of the telemarketing script at someone's front door to interest someone in what we are told to say is effective!!! but is it the gospel? and is what we are preaching really making disciples of jesus.. or are we making a disciple of our religion? is that the same thing? no! we all have a story to tell about how we know personally that jesus is lord and Jehovah is the true god.. if we don't we are not witnessing about god or jesus! we are lobbying! just a group sent forth by a boss to make the proper noises so that people think we are the real deal! but again what's wrong with preaching the gospel? and are we doing it? is our gospel God breathed and a testimony of who is jesus to me? or is your gospel the breath of men that you tell?
I couldn't disagree more JIG We don't follow a weekly prepared script, instead, those are examples of how someone can start the conversation. (the ministry isn't an easy thing to accomplish, see Acts 2 where the majority were 'scared' and wouldn't do it) I've never followed the examples, but some do, and that is fine as well - a lot of people aren't comfortable in the ministry and this helps them. Paul in Athens (Acts 17) is a GREAT example of how to witness, and one we JWs have copied. 1. Who are we talking to? 2. What do they believe? 3. How can we take what they believe, and demonstrate the truth of God's word through it? (the 'unknown God' which I am declaring to you) "and the witness sure can make disciples of the w b.t s!" Puhhh-lease ... jehovahs-witnesses.net is waiting for you, they LOVE slighting JWs and insinuating that we're just a cult of evil WTBS slaves... I for one reject this ad hominem non-argument. I don't know a single JW as delusional as what you (and the rest of the anti-JW crowd) think we are, and I'm going to start defending my bros/sis from this junk. What church do you go to? I bet they teach you blatant lies about God and his Christ!! I'll take the WTBS over the trinity, angry hellfire God, eternal soul [e.g. agreeing with Satan] and a host of nonsense doctrines (protect the State of Israel with the US military!) (yup, I'm fired up, and I apologize) There are a lot of people giving their time and lives to spreading the Gospel of truth as JWs, it's extremely insulting to insinuate that they don't have REAL faith simply because of the 1914 error and some organizational chicanery. Let's be honest: even if you have found the perfect church for you, it still has organizational chicanery, and ultra-bad prophecy centered around Israel (most likely, if you are in the USA) To pretend that the WTBS is some great offender compared to other churches is delusional.
Hi Jigs: There is nothing wrong with preaching the good news of the kingdom, but I would caution you in that the preaching work that Jehovah's Witnesses have done in the last 100 or so years does not fulfill the preaching that Jesus spoke about in the Gospels. For one, you have to know what the Kingdom actually is and who makes up the entirety of the Kingdom before you can start preaching. Otherwise, your preaching will be in vain as it is not about Jesus and Jehovah's Kingdom, but yours (whomever is wrongly preaching0 and although commendable for their efforts, Jehovah's Witnesses have yet to gather even one member of the "great crowd" althought they think that their membership makes up this group as a whole. But how can you "give food at the proper time" without a certain chronology? The answer is you can't and since the Watchtower thinks that we have been in the last days since 1914 and that the Kingdom has been established since that time, how can they dispense the "food at the proper time". No, when the Kingdom is ready to be established it will be revealed to mankind actually what and who the Kingdom really is and it will be at that time (during the great tribulation and during the "time of distress" of Daniel 12) that the "great crowd of the truly faithful will be gathered. Jehovah's Witnesses will certainly be ready to preach when that time comes and they are actually shown the complete truth for the very first time, but their preaching work thus far at best is only a "warm up" for the real thing. We are very close though. After this I saw, and look! a great crowd, which no man was able to number, out of all nations and tribes and peoples and tongues,*+ standing before the throne and before the Lamb, dressed in white robes;+ and there were palm branches in their hands.+ 10 And they keep shouting with a loud voice, saying: “Salvation we owe to our God, who is seated on the throne,+ and to the Lamb.â€+Rev. 7: 9, 10 In response one of the elders said to me: “These who are dressed in the white robes,+ who are they and where did they come from?†14 So right away I said to him: “My lord, you are the one who knows.†And he said to me: “These are the ones who come out of the great tribulation,+ and they have washed their robes and made them white in the blood of the Lamb.+ 15 That is why they are before the throne of God, and they are rendering him sacred service day and night in his temple; and the One seated on the throne+ will spread his tent over them. Rev. 7:13-15 frank
That is simply a framework of understanding regarding the prophecies ALL Christians are called to be in the ministry, regardless of the fulfillment of prophecy or not. In fact, if your (the generic 'your') church ISN'T in the ministry and making that the central mission, something is wrong. So whether JWs are simply a blip on the radar of Christendom, or become the group who refuse to worship the beast collectively [and then fulfills the preaching campaign], is besides the point. As history has shown, there is no more bloodthirsty organization than Christendom's churches - so I personally believe that they will be the first in line to receive the mark of their political Gods. That leaves JWs and a few others on the short list, like the Seventh Day Adventists and similar churches, who will reject the political system and accomplish the final preaching campaign. (individuals are a different matter, this is directed at the organizations) Luthern, Catholic, Orthodox, Methodist, Presbyterian, Baptist, Evangelical organizations et al are logically going to become the enemies of Christ when he returns. They already are with their convoluted Catholic-derived doctrinal system, and when the world system collapses, will be the flag waving nationalists who participated in WW1/2. [many will see through this and escape] ^ because of the above, I find it persuasive that the Catholic church is BTG and her daughters are the churches she spawned, but that is another discussion ------ So in conclusion, now that I'm calming down a bit ... I agree, the current JW preaching work is not in fulfillment of prophecy. But that is irrelevant to the mission Jesus gave all those who want to follow him - preaching in favorable and unfavorable season.
I'm not attacking Jehovah's witnesses knowledge of the bible. what I don't agree with is preaching out of literature without telling any kind of personal testimony. you forget I used to go door to door and get my magazines and do the service meeting and the talks.. you know it and I know it when you go door to door you follow the demonstration set forth at the service meeting! very effective and I'm not disputing the information being conveyed! that topic is not part of what I'm speaking about. what I'm talking about is hello sir my name is ari Davies and I'm out this morning because I want to testify to how I know jesus is lord and bringing about his kingdom on earth today. I uses to be a pretty dishonest and irresponsible person until jesus showed me how to behave and follow a plan that's good for me and everyone around me. and its found right here on these few pages.. at that point a quick reading of one of the key gospel scriptures! the idea that if you don't tell people the watchtowers timeline and how to start attending kingdom hall meetings and studying the books . or you're doing your preaching for nothing well read you bible again! theirs that gospel again! some apostles came complaining to jesus that some other men were teaching and casting out demons in jesus name.. but they are not part of our group! teacher go forbid them! what did jesus say No leave them alone for if they are not speaking against us they are for us. nobody can do a good work in my name and soon speak I'll! theirs that gospel thing some guys got together heard about jesus had a life change and set out to share it! so why is that wrong today? what if a man repents of drugery and asks jesus forgiveness and gets a job pays his bills takes care of his kids. then he tells people the straight truth I read this gospel in this bible I believed it and so I prayed to god and asked for jesus to be my lord and deliverer. I have nothing but a bible my own testimony about jesus power over me.. the bible is my gospel my proof that jesus is king right now??? i am obeying his orders! because those orders worked for me right out of that gospel! now in not just reading a book to someone! I have living proof that jesus is alive and king. and that proof is not nicely prepared books tracts bible study's and meetings. my proof is added to what the apostles said would happen if I put my faith in jesus and I did and the gospel proved to be truth.. so what's wrong with preaching that gospel whenever you want to! just like its written!! come on somebody out their step forward and say . but the watchtower and the kingdom hall has a better method then the one jesus Christ gave unto his apostles!! friends I hope none of you take offense but don't you dare! subscribe to the idea that someone or some faith has clarified the Gospel! improved the gospel! or come up with a way to preach that gospel any better than its already laid out for you! in the plain simple bible.. truely consider what the gospel is! the words breathed by god! everything else is a nice talk about what god has written! and put me on the disfellowship list and hang apostate around my neck! the gospel of jesus Christ will come out of my mouth along with my personal testimony that its true . until jesus steps out of heaven and says no don't say that!
I'm not sure it's true that the primary means of spreading the good news is a personal story of finding Christ. (though if that works, more power to you!) JWs rely heavily on Paul's methods, which were logical arguments to both Jews and Greeks. To the Jew, that meant proving that Jesus was the messiah spoken of in the OT, and to the Greek a very basic summary of God's interaction with the Jews and his intention to bring the messiah from them. (see below for the Greek example in Acts 17) In our era this would be unbelievers and Christians in the Catholic-derived system of Christendom. “Therefore, since we are the children of God, we should not think that the Divine Being is like gold or silver or stone, like something sculptured by the art and design of humans. True, God has overlooked the times of such ignorance; but now he is declaring to all people everywhere that they should repent. Because he has set a day on which he purposes to judge the inhabited earth in righteousness by a man whom he has appointed, and he has provided a guarantee to all men by resurrecting him from the dead.†^ the gold standard of witnessing, in my opinion, especially today in our highly educated Western world I'm sorry for getting ruffled, I was reacting to your making 'disciples of the WTBS' comment; which is not true, and actually a fairly striking insult against what I and many of my friends devote their lives to, which is to make disciples of Jesus and worshipers of Jehovah. The WTBS is merely an organization setup for preaching the good news.
hey bro read my threads and quit taking them out of context! I said read the gospel out of the bible as it is written. then share your personal testament on how you know its true! yes sir that absolutely scriptural and its what you should be doing! as proof of this read those gospels and see how each apostle does exactly that! so how is it today that we have improved on their method! the apostles are the example of how jesus wants the preaching work done. that gospel needs to be preached in front of any literature or book. latter if you're compelled to do the watchtower program then you can! but your first duty to jesus is to use the real bible not a book about it to bring the gospel to the people. I don't mean to sound as if the j.w work is wrong but I am saying first things come first! I remind all that before j.w were called j.w and you were the bible student that is what you did! so what's wrong with preaching the gospel? has it become outdated?
dear Jehovah's wittnes I realize that its insulting to you when I say that books literature and tracts are geared to start a person day one on the road of the watch tower bible and tract society. I'm not saying the kingdom. hall or society is wrong or has faults in doctrine or failed predictions! I'm saying the gospel of Jesus out of the bible comes first! and here is a good reason! we are Jehovah gods representatives therefore the first thing that needs to be shown in our preaching is the bible! not a magazine and then show how the bible backs up that magazine. you should bring the bible gospel out first! then if the householder shows interest you could pull out a bible aid and say this article explained it to me! check this out! do not assume that what is handed to you and what you are told to say at the door is unquestionably the word and will of god! the gospel is! their is no maybe so perhaps just perhaps consider this! I have seen in the replies more of an attempt to defend the wbts format. then an agreement that the bible gospel comes first! check that out just a bit OK I'm gone .
(we aren't told what to say at the door, that is up to the individual) I don't know anyone who places the literature above the Bible JIG ... we go to the door, ask a basic question like "who is the real ruler of the world" -> listen to response -> open Bible and show 1 John 5:19 If they are interested, we leave some literature for them to read and come back, hoping to start a Bible study. In any event, we don't need to argue, it's pointless - recognize that when you tell JWs on a JW forum that they aren't preaching the Gospel, and are making disciples of the WTBS instead of Jesus, it's probably not going to go over well (because it's false - if it were true, I would thank you for trying to wake me up)
Cite some examples JIG - scriptures showing how the apostles witnessed. They didn't carry scrolls around with them... Peter would recite from memory the OT to Jews, showing that he is the Christ. (the NT wasn't even written at this time, so primarily they would declare Jesus risen from the dead) "With great power the apostles continued to testify to the resurrection of the Lord Jesus" Acts 4:33 Paul would cite Greek philosophers to Greeks! Expound and correct, and then make logical arguments about how God setup a mediator between man and himself through Christ, who will judge the world of man. Other topics they highlighted: - resurrection from the dead - repentance and forgiveness of sins Isn't this what JW ministry is? Declaring Christ's kingdom as the only hope for mankind? The resurrection. Repentance. etc There is also the corrective component in the ministry, where the false doctrines which came out of Rome are debunked. This is akin to Galatians where Paul had to correct Peter and the Jews trying to subvert faith back into the law. I appreciate what you are advocating, but I think you're wrong about JWs - if you experienced something different, then I'm sorry for that as well.
dear sir cite some examples????? Matthew mark Luke and john are the 4 gospels... each gospel tells plainly the name of the writer who he was before Jesus came to him and what he became afterwards. this is called a personal testimony. I realize that term may not be common in the hall or at the door. but how hard is it to understand? if a judge calls you to court to be a witness of a crime you must have 1st hand knowledge of that crime.. you can not go to court and say your honor. I read your court transcription of the crime. so i am here to swear that the crime occurred.... that's not witnessing that's lobbying. were a man presents to you a book that's accepted as fact and says you will receive a reward latter if you go out and talk about this information. I was baptised as a jw but every bit of evidence that I saw in my family declared that my family did not have the slightest idea about who jesus is! yet they wore the jw name. myself I door to doored volentered did hall duty and shined all forms of filthyness yet I wore the name wittiness falsely because I knew nothing about him other than what I was told! now 35 years latter I am a witness because I have seen the changing power of Jesus by the gospel and the holy spirit. so now when I minister its out of experience with god on my life! that's how I preach I quote a synopsis of the gospel and say I know that's true because it happened to me
I meant cite scriptural examples of how the apostles witnessed. Since the 4 Gospel accounts weren't written at the time, how did the apostles accomplish their ministry? (granted, they had the power of the spirit for miracles, which we don't have - but still Paul seemed to make a lot of logical argumentation regardless) If what you say is true, that the JWs are not bearing witness to the truth and instead are just door-to-door salesmen of literature, then show through scriptural examples how the ministry should be accomplished. I'm glad you know who Jesus is, that is wonderful! But you seem to be suggesting that we (JWs) don't ... is it possible that you simply weren't studying privately, instead relying on 'church' for your faith? What changed in those 35 years? Did you start reading the Bible privately? Perhaps you were just 'droning' forward as a JW since you were raised in the faith. Whatever the answer to those questions, I'm very happy you found your way as a Christian. It just doesn't translate that because you had a hard time as a JW, that we're literature pumping chumps who don't know Jesus. make sense? Does your church go door to door? What methods do they teach for the ministry? Note: Mark and Luke never met Jesus, the Gospel of Luke is a compilation of accounts he researched (see Luke 1:1-3), and Mark was a student under Peter (according to later church historians) ^ interesting, eh?
not to be unkind but I want you to do exactly what I did read the whole book don't pick out verses you will see why after you read them a few time s good luck
So in other words: you can take the time to cut us down, but not build us up? edit: I know you are a nice man JIG, I don't question that, but am ready-and-willing to debate this position you are espousing - one that is directed against me and my friends in the faith, and is untrue. So far all I've gotten from you is that JWs are not Christian ministers, but literature salesmen, and we don't know Jesus Which is better: Going in the ministry with a helper (tract for example) and finding someone interested in a Bible study OR Not going in the ministry --- Some people aren't 'quick on their feet' talking to strangers about the Bible, so an introduction makes it possible for them, I think that is great --- Now, if the literature were something crazy, like one of those "you're going to hell" signs college 'preachers' use, then yeah, I would agree with your assessment - that is not the Gospel. But a tract that asks "How do you feel about the Bible" and quotes 2 Timothy 3:16 doesn't strike me as a problem.
How about we just drop it JIG? I'm pretty sure we've both violated a number of 'tongue' related Proverbs at this point Then we can get back to more interesting things than who is and who isn't a good minister of the Gospel in the modern world.
this was not about debate. but I totally agree not to talk about it further. I will use my bible like I do and you may do what you wish.
agreed! so without making you mad why don't Jehovah's witnesses and the international bible students shake hands and be friends . as far as I know they don't practice any wicked custom that would prevent us from becomeing brothers...
I'm sorry JIG, I get mad once a year on average LOL, I guess it was that time of the year. I have no problem discussing negative truths about the WTBS, as long as they aren't an attack on my bros / sis intentions... (which I know you didn't intend) Regarding your last post, the WTBS prophetic timeline creates a conundrum when talking about other Christians. They believe that Jehovah is pulling people out of Babylon into the organization. So to acknowledge that there ARE true Christians in other organizations debunks their thesis. Do individual JWs believe that? No, definitely not - some do, certainly, but anyone younger than ~50 (in my experience) has a far more humble perspective. Personally, my brothers and sisters are anyone that has faith in Christ; trinitarians, hell believers, rapture believers, etc.. doctrine doesn't make a Christian, because there are false teachers and false prophets who have blinded them. Just like an Israelite could be surrounded by false prophets and still be a 'true Israelite', though perhaps holding onto some false conception that the false prophets taught them. Religion that God our Father accepts as pure and faultless is this: to look after orphans and widows in their distress and to keep oneself from being polluted by the world. James 1:27
OK doctrine different? now let me tell you why Jehovah has you all building so many windowless halls! Jehovah's witnesses and the bible students are going to be locked together inside those halls for 7 years! and you will be fed meatless food by the 7 day Adventists through a small door. and the only bible you will get to read is the catholic duya with the apocryphal books. all the baptists will be outside burying the bones from the church's with more than 3 words in their name. the catholics get to stay loose long enough to melt down all the idols and guns and knives into shovels and garden tools. so when god let's you and the bible students loose you can have lots of tools to rebuilt paradise. then you all of you will be given pillows and allowed to beat each other senseless. until everybody agrees to let jesus teach everyone from the very start!