"<Some> of those with insight will be made to stumble"

Discussion in 'General Discussions' started by SingleCell, Oct 31, 2013.

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    SingleCell

    SingleCell Experienced Member

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    And they will be made to stumble by sword and by flame, by captivity and by plundering, for some days.

    But when they are made to stumble, they will be given a little help; and many will join with them by means of smooth speech. (hmm, what is this smooth speech?)

    And some of those having insight will be made to stumble, in order to do a refining work because of them and to do a cleansing and a whitening

    RNWT

    and some of the wise shall stumble, so that they may be refined, purified, and made white, until the time of the end, for it still awaits the appointed time.

    ESV

    And some of them of understanding shall fall, to try them, and to purge, and to make them white, even to the time of the end: because it is yet for a time appointed.

    KJV

    Daniel 11:35
    --------------------

    One of the potential stumbling points I see in the 'truth about the truth' is that our current insight will (perhaps) create an inability on our parts to recognize Jehovah's REAL channel when it is revealed.

    Why?

    Because our current understanding of the 'truth about the truth' will blind our eyes to the ACTUAL 'organization' [the group of sons/daughters/man-servants/maid-servants] when they are revealed; the damage of the 'blind prophets' and wayward servants within the WTBS could create an aversion to the idea that Jehovah is electing certain individuals (humans) charged with conveying the truth to the world as one final warning.

    I believe the refinement of the JWs is impending, most likely sparked by the death-stroke of the 7th head (economic collapse of anglo-America), and subsequent ultra-patriotic WW3 which will spread out of the Western world. The 'white washed wall' of 1914 and the haughty pronouncements and conceptions which follow will be done away with; but JWs will continue on, because 'those knowing their God will act effectively'.

    What do Isaiah / Ezekiel / Jeremiah / Joel have in common prophetically?

    A) Jehovah's people are operating under the thumb of haughty leaders

    B) Those haughty leaders 'envision' a lie, saying the "word of Jehovah is" when "I (Jehovah) have said nothing"

    So we see that contrary to what we've been told regarding 'spiritual paradise', the Bible seems to describe what we would call 'the truth about the truth' being fulfilled by the WTBS!

    Conclusion: the JWs under the WTBS system are setup to become the final preachers of the Good News before the end of this system; freed from the WTBS, pushed to the limit but not defeated, will become filled with holy spirit like those in 33 CE. The refinement and stumbling will be the collapse of the WTBS.

    What that means for us, on the fringe of this 'organization': our insight *could* become a stumbling block, as Daniel 11:35 might indicate.

    [might, maybe, possibly, we'll see!]
     
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    belongingtojah

    belongingtojah Member

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    Hi Single Cell,

    Give Jehovah and Jesus and the Holy Spirit some credit here.

    The cleansing and the whitening is by means of the words of Jehovah through Jesus.

    Those who are stumbled and then cleansed in this refining work are not part of any organization of men.

    The ones who are refined and cleansed are done so by means of the word of truth and the anointing that teaches and refines and purifies them.

    Ephesians 5:
    . 25 Husbands, continue loving YOUR wives, just as the Christ also loved the congregation and delivered up himself for it, 26 that he might sanctify it, cleansing it with the bath of water by means of the word, 27 that he might present the congregation to himself in its splendor, not having a spot or a wrinkle or any of such things, but that it should be holy and without blemish.


    The cleansing work is done by Jehovah and not by men.

    Anyone or any organization that teaches different is not listening to the clean water of the word of truth.

    Have a blessed day.

    belongingtojah
     
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    Utuna

    Utuna Administrator

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    "I tell YOU, He will cause justice to be done to them speedily. Nevertheless, when the Son of man arrives, will he really find the faith on the earth?â€￾" - Luke 18:8

    Satan is doing his utmost to destroy the credibility of the anointed ones, whether in the organization or on the Internet.

    Granted, when we consider the anointed ones already back in the first century, they weren't all much spiritually savyy but when we consider the nonsense that some of them write nowadays, I'm not surprised that members of that which we call the GC and who don't know what it is like to be anointed may end up thinking that they can do it all without their opinion. Yet, the Bible says expressly that they'll lead the way. What most people don't understand though is that spiritual understanding doesn't stem from intelligence and logical reasoning. Knowledge is a tool, not an end in itself. And Jehovah gives spiritual understanding and may take it back...

    And I always said that if someone depends on their spiritual "authority" to make a living, they'll clutch at straws to keep it and not lose out on anything in that regard. That's a wise lesson that Paul taught us...

    "For men of that sort are slaves, not of our Lord Christ, but of their own bellies; and by smooth talk and complimentary speech they seduce the hearts of guileless ones." - Rom. 16:18
     
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    Tsaphah

    Tsaphah Experienced Member

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    To gain a deeper understanding of this particular scripture, we must look at other scriptures that use this Hebrew word, chalaqlaqqah. It is pronounced khal-ak-lak-kaw. The khal sounds like clearing your throat, khhaal. It has the meaning of flattery, slipperiness, fine promises, or smoothness of speech. The modern Jewish word is schmoozing. This particular Hebrew word is used 4 times in the Hebrew scriptures.

    “May their path be dark and slippery as Jehovah’s angel pursues them.â€￾ (Ps. 35:6 NWT)

    “So their path will become slippery and dark; They will be pushed and will fall. For I will bring calamity on them in the year of reckoning,â€￾ declares Jehovah. (Jer. 23:12 NWT)

    “And there will stand up in his position a despised one, and they will not give him the majesty of the kingdom; and he will come in during a time of security and take hold of the kingdom by means of smoothness.â€￾ (Dan. 11:21 NWT)

    “But when they are made to stumble, they will be given a little help; and many will join with them by means of smooth speech.â€￾ (Dan. 11:34 NWT)

    Adan Clarke’s commentary on Dan. 11:21 says, “This was Antiochus, surnamed Epiphanes-the Illustrious. They did not give him the honour of the kingdom: he was at Athens, on his way from Rome, when his father died; and Heliodorus had declared himself king, as had several others. But Antiochus came in peaceably, for he obtained the kingdom by flatteries. He flattered Eumenes, king of Pergamus, and Attalus his brother, and got their assistance. He flattered the Romans, and sent ambassadors to court their favour, and pay them the arrears of the tribute. He flattered the Syrians, and gained their concurrence; and as he flattered the Syrians, so they flattered him, giving him the epithet of Epiphanes-the Illustrious. But that he was what the prophet here calls him, a vile person, is fully evident from what Polybius says of him, from Athenaeus, lib. v.: "He was every man's companion: he resorted to the common shops, and prattled with the workmen: he frequented the common taverns, and ate and drank with the meanest fellows, singing debauched songs," contemporary writer, and others after him, instead of Epiphanes, called him Epimanes-the Madman.â€￾

    Clarke’s commentary on Dan. 11:34-35 says, “When the storm of the tenth persecution under Diocletian, which lasted ten years, fell upon them, they were sorely oppressed. By Constantine; who, while he removed all persecution, and promoted the temporal prosperity of the Christian Church, yet added little to its spiritual perfection and strength. For many, now seeing the Christians in prosperity, - Became Christians BECAUSE the EMPEROR was such. Disputes on certain points of religion soon agitated the Christian Church; and now, having no outward persecution, they began to persecute each other. And many excellent men, men of understanding, fell victims because they would not embrace erroneous doctrines, when professed by the state. But this was permitted, - To bring all to the pure profession, possession, and practice of Christianity. To the time that God shall cause pure and undefiled religion every where to prevail. But when is the time appointed for this?â€￾

    John Gill’s commentary on Jer. 23:12 says, “Their course of life may fitly be compared, and in the issue will prove to be like to a man's walking in a dark night without any lamp or lantern to light him, and in a slippery way, scarce able to stand upon his legs, and cannot see to pick his way, nor where to step next, which is very uncomfortable and dangerous; such are blind leaders of the blind, and both in danger of slipping and falling into a ditch,â€￾ This compares to Mt. 15:14, “Let them be. Blind guides is what they are. If, then, a blind man guides a blind man, both will fall into a pit.â€￾ (NWT)
     
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    SingleCell

    SingleCell Experienced Member

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    I agree belongingtojah!

    I'm definitely not suggesting that men are doing the cleaning work!

    Just the context of the scripture (from my admittedly limited understanding) seems to suggest that those having insight (about the 'day of Jehovah') which begins by judgment of <whatever> you consider his 'house' to be, are made to stumble.

    So from my point of view:

    Perhaps those of us who were awakened to the 'truth about the truth' by Robert King, are somehow in danger of stumbling by whatever proceeds out of that 'judgment' of God's house.

    (which I *think* will become the brotherhood of those who endure the preaching work, against a worldwide ban, E.G. the movement of Jehovah's Witnesses becoming empowered by spirit and TRUTH after the blind prophets are 'booted out')

    Maybe I'm just being presumptuous, or just dumb! lol
     
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    SingleCell

    SingleCell Experienced Member

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    Tsaphah - from your understanding, do you think Daniel 11 applies to period of the Seleucid empire, and not beyond?

    I believe it was Eden (seems to have disappeared from here), who wrote a detailed explanation, which I agreed with

    (he was dialoging with Robert on the old forum actually)
     
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    Tsaphah

    Tsaphah Experienced Member

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    Yes, and No. Yes to the application to the Seleucid empire, Rome, Cleopatra, Caesar, and Marc Anthony. It also has a future application and fulfillment. History is a repetition of human behavior. Prophecies have typical and anti-typical conclusions. That is why Paul mentions this in his letter to the Hebrews. "These men are offering sacred service in a typical representation and a shadow of the heavenly things; just as Moses, when about to construct the tent, was given the divine command: For He says: 'See that you make all things after their pattern that was shown to you in the mountain.'â€￾ (Heb. 8:5 NWT)
    Other examples are spoken of. We can conclude that the dream of the image and explained by Daniel, is for a future time. Prophesies of Isaiah, Ezekiel, etc., had an earlier fulfillment, and are yet to have a future fulfillment.
     
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    wallflower

    wallflower Moderator

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    SingleCell

    SingleCell Experienced Member

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    Thanks for bumping this WF :)

    Oddly, a friend of mine recently gave up worshiping Jehovah. [E.G. atheism]

    Why?

    Because of 1914 and discrepancy within the organization (at least, that was my takeaway).

    He was stumbled, and is one of the most insightful and intelligent people I know. It really hammered this point home :/

    [currently conniving my way (through debate) hoping to help him back to faith! ... and frankly, I have no doubt he will return]
     
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    jehovahisgod

    jehovahisgod Experienced Member

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    I am a baptised Jehovah witness and while my local congregation might consider me disassociated (I doubt it) they never paid me no mind! I'm not disfellowshiped for sinfull behavior. I can worship Jehovah and preach to whomever whenever I want and I don't have to turn in a paper. I go were Jehovah inspires me to go. and I gather with people that say they are Christian.
    its not my business to question them and ask them to prove themself. I have plenty of faults of my own to correct. but I found a better way! if I do what Jehovah says to do then I don't have to worry one way or other about hell or simple death! keep your eyes on jesus and get it done!

    it works if I can do it anybody can!
     
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    SingleCell

    SingleCell Experienced Member

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    That is cool JIG :)

    I'm not sure what it has to do with the prophecy in Daniel, but I am happy for you!
     
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    jehovahisgod

    jehovahisgod Experienced Member

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    my apology I accidentally posted in the wrong thread sorry!
     

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