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Discussion in 'General Discussions' started by Tsaphah, Jul 17, 2017.

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    SingleCell

    SingleCell Experienced Member

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    I'm with you Regent!

    "As you come to him, a living stone rejected by men but chosen, precious to God"
     
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    Tsaphah

    Tsaphah Experienced Member

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    OOOPPPSSS!!! Three times for emphasis. The so-called predictor is not only a false prophet, but a false scientist. His so-called calculations are wrong. Well, according to him, not exactly wrong. He mystically turned into a politician. “The world is not ending, but the world as we know it is ending,” “A major part of the world will not be the same the beginning of October.”
    https://www.usatoday.com/story/news...saturday-said-isnt-actually-ending/692907001/
     
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    Regent Lessard

    Regent Lessard New Member

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    Let's give the man a little credit for saying "The world is not ending, but the world as we know it it is ending." but that does not happen only from the 23 rd of this month, but from Adam to God Knows When. Ec 1:4 The world as we know it is ending, true never the same people in it. Regent
     
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    Tsaphah

    Tsaphah Experienced Member

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    Hi Regent,
    I’m LOL. :) o_O A good analogy. His statement that world “The world is not ending, but the world as we know it is ending,” That’s a political/philosophic, cop-out, statement. In that sense, the world as we know it is ending every second. If it didn’t, we would be stuck in a time warp. OK, I give him 1 star, for tricking language.o_O
     
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    Tsaphah

    Tsaphah Experienced Member

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    There are those who think that because the Jewish tradition, and a few quotations from non-canonical writings by some apostles makes them authentic, these books must be OK.

    “First Book of Enoch (1 Enoch), also called Ethiopic Book Of Enoch, pseudepigraphal work (not included in any canon of scripture) whose only complete extant version is an Ethiopic translation of a previous Greek translation made in Palestine from the original Hebrew or Aramaic.” (Encyclopedia Britannica)

    “Enoch, the seventh patriarch in the book of Genesis, was the subject of abundant apocryphal literature, especially during the Hellenistic period of Judaism (3rd century bc to 3rd century ad). At first revered only for his piety, he was later believed to be the recipient of secret knowledge from God. This portrait of Enoch as visionary was influenced by the Babylonian tradition of the 7th antediluvian king, Enmenduranna, who was linked to the sun god and received divine revelations. The story of Enoch reflects many such features of the Babylonian myth.” (Encyclopedia Britannica)

    “No Hebrew version is known to have survived. It is asserted in the book itself that its author was Enoch, before the Biblical Flood.” (Wikipedia) If you wish to question the authenticity of the Bible and wonder why certain other writings are not included, listen to what Jesus said when questioned by the so-called religious leaders of his day, who accepted such writings. “Why do you yourselves transgress the commandment of God for the sake of your tradition?” “And by this you invalidated the word of God for the sake of your tradition.” (Mt 15:3b, 6b NASB)

    Do not be sucked into this trap.
     
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    Earthbound

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    The topic of Jewish beliefs during the Second Temple period was touched on in a separate thread, so I'm not going to repeat everything here. I will say that the your statement is grossly oversimplified and conveys a mistaken assertion that extra-Biblical writings were viewed as inspired canon which was never the case outside of those Christian groups who included the writings as part of their canonized Bible.

    It also places the burden on you to account for why the writer of Jude, writing under inspiration of holy spirit, was moved to quote from what is, in your estimation, a worthless pile of parchments, in order to make his point.

    The "authenticity" of said writings aren't contested by the writer of Jude— they are accepted by him. That, to me, is hardly insignificant.

    Since this dilemma creates such concern and repugnance, perhaps it would be better if we strike the references/quotes from our Bible?



    The assertion was a common practice during that time period, as can be verified through even the most rudimentary of research on one's part.

    Besides, neither do we have a single copy of any writing included in the Bible in its original language, so arguing that since there isn't a known copy of Enoch in Hebrew in existence this somehow proves it's "fake news" must be applied equally to any writing for which we do not have an original copy, whether in our canonized Bible or not.

    pseudonymity
    It became a convention in the period between OT and NT that works should be published under the authorship of a fictitious name, such as Moses or Enoch, or the sons of Jacob. Such a name imparted a certain authority to the writing. In the OT the book of Daniel is pseudonymous, and in the NT it is widely held that 2 Peter and Jude are pseudonymous, and also the Pastoral Epistles. Literary standards of the time did not necessarily condemn pseudonymity as deceitful. (Nevertheless Tertullian (c. 220 CE) reports that a presbyter found to have falsely attributed a work to Paul was forced to resign.) Disciples of Paul who remembered his teaching would have collected and developed the oral tradition. As representatives of Paul it was natural to use his name for the published works.— Oxford Biblical Studies Online

    {See also: Pseudonymity and the New Testament, Pseudonymity as Rhetoric.}


    As can be demonstrated from simply doing some brief research, this "tradition" Jesus is referring to cannot include the Jewish apocalyptic writings, since the Pharisees patently rejected writings such as the Enochian literature. Rather, these "traditions" were those the Pharisees had developed as a sect to set themselves apart from the rest of the Jews. The traditions eventually came to be Rabbinic Judaism, as I recall.

    In any case, I'd be curious who here has been insisting that the extra-Biblical writings should be given the same weight and authority as the canonized Bible we rely on for the core and structure of our understanding, rather than a supplementary place much like a worldly encyclopedia, dictionary, or what-not, that helps illuminate the views and beliefs of the Second Temple period, whether among the Jews proper, or the Jewish followers of Jesus.

    ~~Earthbound
     
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    John S

    John S Member

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    Tsaphah,

    Enjoying your new supercharged zeal! Keep going!

    You asked.... 'What is the good news, in one simple sentence?'

    I submit;


    Acts 2:38New Living Translation (NLT)
    38 Peter replied, “Each of you must repent of your sins and turn to God, and be baptized in the name of Jesus Christ for the forgiveness of your sins. Then you will receive the gift of the Holy Spirit.
     
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    Tsaphah

    Tsaphah Experienced Member

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    My first thought about answering your questions about the “book of Enoch”, was the warning given by
    Paul’s instructions to Timothy (1 Tim 6:4), (2 Tim 2:23), and similar thoughts written to Titus. (Titus 3:9)

    I’ve looked at comments by other bible scholars and teachers about the apocryphal "Book of Enoch,".
    The first thing to consider before acceptance of this so-called book.
    1. Who was Jude writing to, and for what purpose?
    2. Was his comment dealing with acceptance of the book?

    We don’t know if Jude wrote this letter to be distributed to all of the existing churches/congregations, or a specific one. His message was specific, to the problems of those false teachers who “have crept in unnoticed, those who were long beforehand marked out for this condemnation, ungodly persons who turn the grace of our God into licentiousness and deny our only Master and Lord, Jesus Christ.” (Jude 3) It's kind of like here, that's why I am here.

    “These evil persons were the reasons for Jude's writing this letter. Just how he came to have this information is not specified; but presumably, he had received either some letter regarding it, or had been visited by one who knew the facts. It would appear that such people were apostate Christians, rather than rank outsiders. ‘In New Testament times, many of the enemies of the church were an emergence from within, rather than an intrusion from without.’” (Coffman Commentaries on the Old and New Testament)

    Jude likens them to those who turned away after being saved out of Egypt, angels who didn’t keep there right position, Sodom and Gomorrah. He compared them to unthinking animals. His use of a paraphrase from Enoch was not an acceptance of the book being authentic. This book was obviously known by the audience. As Coffman continues, “These heretics are here indicted in four charges: (1) they entered secretly; (2) they were prophetically consigned to doom; (3) they are ungodly; and (4) they deny Christ. As Wallace said, ‘To deny is positively to disbelieve what Christ testified about himself.’” Coffman Commentaries on the Old and New Testament)

    Coffman comments on Jude 14 as; “Well, here at last we have ‘Enoch.’ This is the first and only reference to him in this letter, and this verse is the only thing in Jude that may fairly be connected with him. Jude's use of Enoch's prophecy stamps that prophecy as the gospel truth, but it does absolutely nothing for the apocryphal ‘Book of Enoch,’ rightfully rejected as having no canonical value, and being quite ridiculous, fanciful, and false. As the footnote in the Catholic Bible says, ‘The Book of Enoch is apocryphal. St. Jude does not here approve the entire book, but only this prophecy.’ The false book of Enoch was widely known in apostolic times, and it was quite natural that Jude would have referred to the famous prophecy allegedly made by Enoch. It could be that Jude, by singling out this prophecy as true, meant that the Biblical character Enoch indeed uttered it, which for all anyone knows may be the truth; but that meaning is not at all mandatory. It was likely merely the manner of identifying the prophecy, which Jude attributed to its alleged source, instead of reference to a book of so many errors.” (Coffman Commentaries on the Old and New Testament)

    Another example is how Paul, having knowledge of Greek philosophy, used a saying borrowed from Plato; “a shadow of the reality” from the “allegory of the cave” in his work Republic. (Heb 8:5 and 10:1) That didn’t mean that Paul was saying Plato’s philosophy was inspired, or correct.

    One thing is sure, the “book of Enoch”, like the “book of Mormon” are not writings inspired by Jehovah God. Their only inspiration I can see is by Satan, to cause confusion. Of course there are “these” (false teachers) and those, who will follow to their own destruction as spoken of by Paul and Jude.
     
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    Thinking

    Thinking Active Member

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    I suspect they stopped printing it because Franz uncoverd too much and it was noted we were teaching wrong doctrines and it was said it would take decades to undo ..the false teachings....I still have mine...
     
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    Thinking

    Thinking Active Member

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    I came to the conclusion it was inspir d of demons as well...and I read it twice...the main reason is that ....when Joshua and Kaleb went into clean out the lands of false gods after their long stint in the wilderness....they were to destroy all the false Gods and images...and amongst his own people....THE NAMES OF THE FALSE GODS WERE NOT TO BE EVEN MENTIONED...
    Yet in the book of Enoch the fallen angels are named...individually and exactly what each fallen angel thought mankind...it's like each had a speciality to give to men....
    Now why would Jehovah name them...or even go into detail of their corruptive ways....
    He just wouldn't do that...he only names two of his own spirit angels.....Michael And Gabriel..why on earth would he name so many fallen angels...
    I wanted to beleive it at one stage in my journey..but no where does any scripture support the current book known as The book of Enoch ...
    If any one follows it or believes it to belong in the scriptures..Then Satan has clerverly deceived them..
    They can use and state 90 percent truth....and then taint it with 10 percent poison...that's how they make it sound so convincing....thus seducing the reader...
     
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    Tsaphah

    Tsaphah Experienced Member

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    In speaking of that 10%; If someone offered you a drink and said, "It's good for you! It only has 1% of ethelyne glycol. It will taste a little sweet, but it's OK!" Would you drink it? If you did, you would suffer a long excruciating painful death.
     
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    Tsaphah

    Tsaphah Experienced Member

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    English words which are spelled/spelt the same but have very different meanings can be confusing.

    Wound = injury, hurt, pronounced woond. “Don’t worry darling, it’s only a flesh wound!”
    Wound = past participle of wind (wynd) bring to a close. “The project wound down.”

    Wind = Air in motion. “The wind is blowing at 12 miles an hour.”
    Wind = twist, turn around. “Don’t overwind the wire.” “Oh no, I wound it too tight.”

    We can say the same about other languages, especially Biblical Hebrew, Aramaic, and Greek.

    Greek:
    Pneuma = a movement of air, breath, wind, an angel, a spirit, the efficient source of any power, affection, emotion, desire, etc.

    Hebrew, Aramaic:

    Ruwach = a movement of air, breath, wind, an angel, a spirit, the efficient source of any power, affection, emotion, Spirit of God, etc.
    and the earth being without form and empty, and darkness on the face of the deep, and the Spirit of God moving gently on the face of the waters,” (Gen 1:2 LITV)

    And they went in to Noah and to the ark, two and two of all flesh, in which is the breath of life.” (Gen 7:15 LITV)

    And the king said to them, I have dreamed a dream, and my spirit was troubled to know the dream.” (Dan 2:3 LITV)

    One slow to anger is of great understanding, but he who is short of spirit exalts folly.” (Pr 14:29 LITV)

    When they stood still, these stood still. And when they rose up, these also lifted up. For the spirit of the living creature was in them.” (Ezek 10:17 LITV)

    Ruwach: (Hiphil) to smell, scent, perceive odour, accept
    a. of horse
    b. of delight (metaph)

    And he came near and kissed him. And he smelled the smell of his clothes. And he blessed him, and said, See, the smell of my son is as the smell of a field which Jehovah has blessed.” (Gen 27:27 LITV) The air moving through the nose.

    Translations of ruwach to English and other languages as: Spirit, air, anger, blast, breath, breathless, cool, courage, despondency, exposed, grief, heart, inspired, mind, motives, points, quick-tempered, side, sides, spirit, spirits, strength, temper, thoughts, trustworthy, wind, winds, windy, wrath.

    All of these words are depending on sentence structure and subject matter.
     
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    Tsaphah

    Tsaphah Experienced Member

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    Let me throw this thought out. I actually laughed to myself, when the thought came to mind. Thought: Maybe Trump is the modern day Nebuchadnezzar. He will go crazy and live with the animals for seven years.

    Nebuchadnezzar or Nebuchadrezzar = “may Nebo protect the crown”.

    Nebo: a Babylonian deity who presided over learning and letters; corresponds to Greek Hermes, Latin Mercury, and Egyptian Thoth.

    Mr. Trump said he has a better mind (IQ) and, better use of language (bigly) than anyone else. Well Nebotrump, let’s see what happens. “Let his mind be changed from that of a man and let a beast’s mind be given to him, and let seven periods of time pass over him. This sentence is by the decree of the angelic watchers and the decision is a command of the holy ones, in order that the living may know that the Most High is ruler over the realm of mankind, and bestows it on whom He wishes and sets over it the lowliest of men.”* ( Dan 4:16-17 NASB ) Remember what Trump said about his mind and use of language? Nebo!

    Babel was the beginning of civilization: laws and rules by man. It was one of the first acts of disobedience against Jehovah. (Gen 9:7) But, as time continued, they said; “Come! Let us build a city for ourselves and a tower with its top in the heavens, and let us make a celebrated name for ourselves, so that we will not be scattered over the entire face of the earth.” (Gen 11:4 NWT) The city of the beginning of man ruling over man was called Babel = confusion. Not only were their languages confused, so were their minds. They thought they could rule themselves better then God could.

    * I have found that the NWT’s translation is more correct than NASB/KJV/etc. Why? There is only the single for “watcher” and “holy one”, not plural. The use here is misinterpreted as “an angel” and “a holy one”, indicating two individuals. The word “and” is what can change the meaning. It should be correctly understood and translated as, “a watcher, a holy one”.

    As I viewed the visions of my head while on my bed, I saw a watcher, a holy one, coming down from the heavens.” ( Dan 4:13 NWT ) This coincides with verse 4:23. There is one individual watcher/holy one speaking, not two. “And the king saw a watcher, a holy one, coming down from the heavens, who was saying:

    The word hermeneutic; to make clear, interpret, comes from the Greek god of languages; Hermês. This is especially needed here when it ties in with Babylon, where confusion of all languages took place. SO . . ., Mr. Nebotrump is like Nebuchadnezzar in having the same attitude of power, high minded, and language skills. Maybe we will see him next, eating grass on the White House lawn. :confused: :eek: ;)


     
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    Joshuastone7

    Joshuastone7 Administrator Staff Member

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    Hey brother, have you noticed the similarities between Dan 4 and Gen 11:1-9?
     
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    Tsaphah

    Tsaphah Experienced Member

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    Oh yes! I'm always in awe that these people (the cradle of civilization) continue to be big headed. Self induldged!
    I have spent some time reading and studying the History of the Church. Here is some important information to think about when studying the bible and certain religious authorities.

    THE FIRST TWO CENTURIES
    “The first thing, therefore, that should be naturally treated in the internal history of the church, is the history of its ministers,rulers,and form of government. When we look back to the commencement of the Christian church, we find its government administered jointly by the pastors and the people. But, in process of time, the scene changes, and we see these pastors affecting an air of pre-eminence and superiority, trampling upon the rights and privileges of the community, and assuming to themselves a supreme authority both in civil and religious matters. This invasion of the rights of the people was at length carried to such a height, that a single man administered, or at feast pretended a right to administer, the affairs of the whole church with an unlimited sway. Among the teachers of these early times, there were some who acquired, by their learned labors, a shining reputation, and an universal influence; they were regarded as oracles; their decisions were handed down to posterity as sacred rules of faith and practice; and they thus deserve to be mentioned, with particular distinction, among the governors of the church, though no part of its public administration was actually in their hands.”
    ( Mosheim’s Church History, pp. 9-10, 1847 )

    “Those who undertake to write the history of the christian church are exposed to receive a bias from three different sources, from times, persons, and opinions. The times, in which we live, have often so great an influence, on our manner of judging, as to make us consider the events which happen in our days, as a rule by which we are to estimate the probability or evidence of those that are recorded in the history of past ages. The persons, on whose testimonies we think we have reason to depend, acquire an imperceptible authority over our sentiments, that too frequently seduces us to adopt their errors, especially if these persons have been distinguished by eminent degrees of sanctity and virtue. And an attachment to favorite opinions leads authors sometimes to pervert, or at least to modify, facts in favor of those who have embraced these opinions, or to the disadvantage of such as have opposed them. These kinds of seduction are so much the more dangerous, as those whom they deceive are, in innumerable cases, insensible of their delusion, and of the false representations of things to which it leads them. It is not necessary to observe the solemn obligations that bind an historian to guard against these three sources of error with the most delicate circumspection, and the most scrupulous attention.” ( Mosheim’s Church History, pg. 14, 1847 )

    Always check the resource for the background, influences, opinions, thinking of the times, and even cultural background. All of these have an effect on the information. Remember what Jesus and the apostles taught us, people of the world will hate us. They will want to kill us.



     
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