Before the flood the people had high tec. Noah, and his sons knew many things. If we were Noah, would we take in the ark, things of science, or how to build things? The tower of Bable may have been very high tec, I don't think it was just stone upon stone? These were people very close to the flood. Their tower would have had to be very high, float, or fly.
Gen 11:3 "Then they said to one another: “Come! Let us make bricks and bake them with fire.†So they used bricks instead of stone, and bitumen as mortar."
Domenic, I don't mean to seem simplistic, you see, when one searches for truth, you must take first what is said in scripture, and that must mean just as it says unless directly mentioned as metaphoric or guides you to another location. You see in fact I am familiar with all of the esoteric ideas in modern culture such as magnetic levitation using vats of mercury under pyramids and past aliens and mental abilities lost over time. But you see, all of these things are chaff in the wind, they are meaningless. They make for interesting Scyfy movies, (of which I am a fan) however, if you really want truth, and want to understand what Jehovah really wants you to understand, then only take what is fact from the Bible. There is nothing we can do with worldly fantasy's... The reason I answered you with Gen 11:3 is because the scripture says they built the tower with clay bricks and tar as mortar. That is what it was built from and how it was built, nothing more, nothing less, stacking one brick on another. Why??? Because that's what the Bible says, and anything outside the Bible allows itself to be influenced by any number of external forces. True enlightenment does not come from discovering some ancient secrets known only by a few men, this is how churches like Scientology and Masonry work. You reach a certain level and you gain new knowledge, and it's usually about aliens and other worlds. Many of us here are well familiar with these ideas however, true enlightenment can only come from scripture in understanding exactly what is in that book and what it means, without any outside adjustments.
I'm not pushing against you? Lets hold that theory as fact. Adam and the women ate a fruit. They did what God commanded them not to do...that is the sin. They did not die from eating the fruit...they died at a judgment from God. That is okay, and God had the right to kill them. Question: How is that death passed on to all born from that sin? Did Gog change the human DNA, or put a judgment of death on all unborn people because two had sinned? If that is true, the world would be right in saying God is a cruel monster. You would not kill billions for what two people had done, nor would I. That would mean we have more compassion than God? I do not believe I have more compassion than God…so if your theory that word, for word, the bible is stating true facts, something is wrong? Let’s make up a hypothesis. God greats two humans, and gives them the desire for sex. He warns them, “If you have sex, you will die.†Ten minutes later they have sex several times, but don’t die. God finds out, and tells them, “You will die within 1,000 years.†Within the 1,000 years they die. They died because God said they would. They did not die from the sex. Just one reason why the billions of un-born will die? God has never punished anybody for something they did not do. If one person in your congregation murdered a person, should the whole congregation go on trial for murder? Should a person in New York be punished for what a person in San Francisco did? Because some people are gay, should all people be charged with the sin of being gay? JW’s can’t smoke. If they do, they are to be put out, (not in the bible.) I was a JW. I smoked. I was put out. Why were you not put out for why I did? The theory that brick is brick, and mortar is mortar is not always true. The tree that is bearing bad fruit will be cast into the fire. Word for word, which has to be talking about a bad tree, not people? You said something about Gods name. “It may be said in many different ways, but the meaning is the same.†I do not agree with that. The tree is a metaphor. I understand it is talking about people…but it does not say people. How do I know Bricks, and mortar is not a metaphor? I was talking to a friend from China who asked me how to care for the paint on his new car…it is a black car. I told him to go to an auto parts store, and buy some soft rags, a can of wax, and use a lot of elbow grease. He asked, “What do I do with the elbow grease?†The tree in the garden…was that a metaphor, or a real tree? Question: The tree would give them the knowledge of right, and wrong. Which means they did not know right from wrong, so they took of its fruit. Why would God kill them for doing what they did not know was wrong? Reason must play a part in our reasoning of scriptures. If not, anybody can just lead us were ever they want, right off the next cliff.
Sin is genetic and mankind adopted this genetic condition down from Adam and Eve. Rom 7:19 "For I do not do the good that I wish, but the bad that I do not wish is what I practice." Rom 7:20 "If, then, I do what I do not wish, I am no longer the one carrying it out, but it is the sin dwelling in me." Rom 7:23 "but I see in my body another law warring against the law of my mind and leading me captive to sin’s law that is in my body." Rom 3:23 "For all have sinned and fall short of the glory of God," Rom 5:12 "That is why, just as through one man sin entered into the world and death through sin, and so death spread to all men because they had all sinned" Just like the angels had an option to continue to do Jehovah's will in order to live, so Adam and Eve had a choice to do his will and live. They chose to disobey Jehovah, and as a consequence they brought death upon themselves. So therefore there's no reason not to believe the tree was a physical item in the garden that had the ability to change their DNA had they ate from it. It's the most simplistic explanation. Jehovah chose not to know they would sin, hence giving them free will.
You said : Adam and Eve's sin has nothing to do with sex. Besides, whether it was a real tree or not is irrelevant. Personally, I wouldn't mind if it were a metaphor. They knew that what they were doing was wrong. Of course they knew it ! Jehovah had warned them. Don't touch that tree ! This tree symbolized God's right to decide what is wrong or good for humans because the latter ones aren't able, by nature, to decide this for themselves. No, they didn't die from eating the fruit, just like you won't die on the spot if you ever eat blood sausage. They didn't merely eat from a fruit. They disobeyed a direct commandment from God.
Josh is right ! X-files fables are entertaining... but entertaining only... Please what do you mean by the words "high tec" ? You know, all along the years on forums, we've heard so many crazy theories and fables that we've become cautious and leery.
I agree with all the scriptures. SIN=Falling short of the mark. Rom 7:19 "For I do not do the good that I wish, but the bad that I do not wish is what I practice. Is something making their resistance to not sin working here? Rom 7:20 "If, then, I do what I do not wish, I am no longer the one carrying it out, but it is the sin dwelling in me." We all sin. Something is making it hard to not sin…we do it daily. Rom 7:23 "but I see in my body another law warring against the law of my mind and leading me captive to sin’s law that is in my body." Again, something is going on here? Rom 3:23 "For all have sinned and fall short of the glory of God," This is a true statement…we all sin. Why Rom 5:12 "That is why, just as through one man sin entered into the world and death through sin, and so death spread to all men because they had all sinned" This scripture is saying two things: Sin entered Mankind. Causing death for all people. Nowhere in the scriptures, or the teaching of God, or Jesus hints in any anyway that the falling short of the mark (sin) of one person is to make others responsible for that sin, unless it is a physical transfer of something that would make those who come after by birth die, such as HIV. This is a fact: Adam, and Eve did not die from what they did. They died from a judgment from God. We do not die from a judgment from God. If we did, we would never be brought back in the resurrection. Those who die from a judgment of God stay dead. We have to be dying from something physical that is being passed from human to human. God had no part in the death of any but Adam, and Eve. In Genesis 3:15, right after the falling short of the only two humans on earth, God confronted the one responsible, Satan, and God made a way out with the promise of the coming messiah. Facts; Adam, and Eve died from a judgment from God. Judgments are not passed on to others by God, unless it is a curse. The judgment could not have been passed on by God, nor was there a curse by God. The fact that he made a way out for us proves that. We die because Adam, and Eve passed on something physical, and it was not from eating a fairy tale fruit. I’m sorry to disagree with you, but I see what I see.
Reminds me a recent thread about perfection. To be perfect isn't about making no mistakes at all. By nature, we can't know everything. That's the way we are and why the tree of the knowledge of good and bad existed. Perfection has most surely something to do with how we deal with our own ignorance, incertitudes and our feelings about it all.
I think your confusing inherited sin with willful sin. We are responsible for gross sin we commit, but that has nothing to do with the fact that we inherited the sinful condition from Adam. I don't happen to agree with that. I believe they died by a direct result of eating from the tree, a physical tree and fruit, and that is what caused their death. That is what it says after all, which means the burden of proof doesn't lie with me, it lies with someone who thinks the Bible doesn't mean what it says. I just happen to believe the narrative in scripture. Gen 3:6 "Consequently, the woman saw that the tree was good for food and that it was something desirable to the eyes, yes, the tree was pleasing to look at. So she began taking of its fruit and eating it. Afterward, she also gave some to her husband when he was with her, and he began eating it." It says what it says... Like I said before, one should never apply their own understanding into scripture unless such scriptures categorically mention the statement is a metaphor, or they lead you to another place in the Bible that defines the previous scripture.
You believe they ate a real fruit from a real tree, and that is why they died, and why the rest of us die. I’m a slow thinking person, so please help me along here. Right after Adam, and the women ate this real fruit, we were all dead ducks, and within a short time God made a way out for us in Genesis 3;15. Okay, I can understand that part you say you believe. I’m confused on one miner point? All the trees in the bible are symbolic…is there a scripture that separates the fruit tree in the garden from the rest of the symbolic trees in the bible? The other trees don’t have a label that says they are symbolic? Are you suggesting that makes them rear trees like the fruit tree? And if not, why not? If my questions bother you, you don't have to give reply...I do not make statements, or ask question to make trouble for people.
Jehovah told them exactly where the trees were, he gave their exact location. Gen 2:9 "Thus Jehovah God made to grow out of the ground every tree that was pleasing to look at and good for food and also the tree of life in the middle of the garden and the tree of the knowledge of good and bad." Gen 2:16 "From every tree of the garden you may eat to satisfaction." I am only aware of two trees that scripture says were set aside as special, the tree of Knowledge of good and bad and the tree of life. As for your statement that all trees in the Bible are symbolic, I would say you are mistaken. Only those such as Dan 4 where Daniel said specifically that the tree represented Neb are the trees symbolic, only when it's specifically mentioned as symbolic. Anything more and you add your own understanding to scripture. Do you have any idea how many times I can think of that trees are mentioned in the Bible as just simply trees? Like the one Judas hung himself from for just one example.