Part 1 - A Symbolic Drama​

These things may be taken as a symbolic drama; for these women mean two covenants, the one from Mount Si′nai, which bears children for slavery and which is Ha′gar.

Now Ha′gar means Si′nai, a mountain in Arabia, and she corresponds with the Jerusalem today, for she is in slavery with her children.

But the Jerusalem above is free, and she is our mother.

- Galatians 4:24

This symbolic drama has been enacted in great detail within the pages of the Bible, waiting for us to comprehend the wonderful work of Jehovah as he brings these two families back together for a final witness to the world.

Two witnesses, two women, two families and the legal establishment of the wonderful work of Jehovah.

​

[a framework]​

Israel (Jacob) had two wives Rachel and Leah, just like his grandfather Abraham married to Sarah and Hagar. These two wives birthed the Nation Israel in a literal sense:

"At this all the people who were in the city gate and the elders said: “We are witnesses! May Jehovah grant the wife who is entering your house to be like Rachel and like Le′ah, both of whom built the house of Israel."

- Ruth 4:11

But what about a spiritual view of these women and their two important children, Judah and Joseph?

And why did the Nation of Israel split into two camps, the Northern and Southern kingdoms?


Stay tuned for more ...

(please don't begin debating me quite yet, or I'll get distracted -- let me make the case first [ yes you Joshua ] )

 

Part 2 - Joseph and Judah​

There has been a great fracturing of the inheritance of Jehovah. Israel's sons rejected the prophecy of God, and killed their savior.

No, I'm not talking about Jesus.

​

The Dream of Joseph:

Then he dreamed another dream and told it to his brothers and said,
“Behold, I have dreamed another dream.
Behold, the sun, the moon, and eleven stars were bowing down to me.â€￾

But when he told it to his father and to his brothers, his father rebuked him and said to him,

“What is this dream that you have dreamed?"

Because of this dream, Joseph, son of Israel, was sold into slavery and effectively murdered by his brothers.

But the grand drama of Jehovah's work had begun, and Joseph was protected from death, exalted to a throne at the right hand of Pharaoh.

Sometime later while Joseph was acting on behalf of Pharaoh, his traitorous brothers fell upon his court in need of assistance.

But his brothers did not recognize him:

"Thus Joseph recognized his brothers, but they did not recognize him."

Genesis 42:8

We all know the story, it's one of our favorite in the Bible! But what can we take away from these events?


Let's look at Deuteronomy 33, where we see a prophecy of who these men and their families become.

Of particular interest is the prophecy of Joseph (Rachel's son), and Judah (Leah's son).

Of Joseph he said:

“May his land be blessed by Jehovah
With the choice things of heaven, With dew and the waters from the springs below,
With choice things produced by the sun And the choice yield each month,
With the choicest things from the ancient mountains
And choice things of the enduring hills,
With the choice things of the earth and what fills it,
And with the approval of the One residing in the thornbush.
May they come upon the head of Joseph, On the crown of the head of the one singled out from his brothers.
His splendor is like that of a firstborn bull, And his horns are the horns of a wild bull.
With them he will push peoples All together to the ends of the earth.
They are the tens of thousands of E′phra·im, And they are the thousands of Ma·nas′seh

And he pronounced this blessing on Judah:

“Hear, O Jehovah, the voice of Judah,
And may you bring him back to his people.
His arms have defended what belongs to him,
And may you help him against his adversaries."


Now, from a spiritual reading, what do you see?

Clearly, Joseph is the Christ in this instance, right? He was killed, yet exalted in order to save his brothers who had sinned.

What about Judah?

Judah, far removed, who becomes the Southern Kingdom, is the prodigal son.

But Jehovah will preserve his people, though they are rebellious.

Next up, Ezekiel 37, and the spiritual mending of Jehovah's people - Christians and Jews.

Pssst ... don't forget about the sun and moon ...

 

Part 3 - A Spiritual Mending of Jehovah's People: Christians and Jews​

The word of Jehovah again came to me, saying:

“And you, son of man, take a stick and write on it,
‘For Judah and for the people of Israel who are with him.’

Then take another stick and write on it,
‘For Joseph, the stick of E′phra·im, and all the house of Israel who are with him.’

Then bring them close to each other so that they become just one stick in your hand.

Ezekiel 37:15-17

​

‘Will you not tell us what these things mean?’​

Jehovah says:

“I will take the stick of Joseph, which is in the hand of E′phra·im, and the tribes of Israel who are with him, and I will join them to the stick of Judah; and I will make them one stick, and they will become one in my hand.â€

Ezekiel 37:19b

But certainly this only applies to the literal Nation of Israel?

I don't think so, In short: I believe this is talking about Jesus and the Sons of the Kingdom (Joseph) with the people of Abraham's seed (Judah).

See 37:26-27 for evidence:

And I will make a covenant of peace with them;
it will be an eternal covenant with them.
I will establish them and make them many and place my sanctuary among them forever.
My tent will be with them, and I will be their God, and they will be my people. (Rev 21)
And the nations will have to know that I, Jehovah, am sanctifying Israel when my sanctuary is in their midst forever.â€â€™

At some future time part of the remaining ones of Abraham's seed will recognize the Messiah. This is not conjecture, but clear prophecy, covered here.

The stick being joined back together will be the Jews recognizing Jesus Christ.


Let's recap Part 1 - 3, and then we will move onto some REALLY interesting tidbits hidden in the scriptures.

The story of Joseph is a parable about Jesus and the division between Israel and the Israel of God. This parable is demonstrated elsewhere, for example:

- Esau (Judah) rejecting his birthright and selling it to Jacob (Son of the Kingdom) for food


Now this is where it gets interesting, Judah was the only tribe faithful to the lineage of David. The Northern tribes rejected Rehoboam, Solomon's son, and by inference the lineage of David.

They were destroyed by the Assyrians in ~722 BCE.

However, Benjamin, the younger, joined Judah and survived the attack by the Assyrians. Staying with Judah in the Southern Kingdom until the destruction by Neo-Babylon in 586 BCE.

Benjamin means "Son of my right hand", and pictures the Christ re-joining himself to Abraham's faithful seed, despite Judah being .. less than perfect.



This was decided long ago, Jehovah has made the end known from the beginning.

Jehovah said to Rebekkah:

"Two nations are in thy womb, and two manner of people shall be separated from thy bowels; and the one people shall be stronger than the other people; and the elder shall serve the younger."


Now that we have established the division within physical Israel, let's look at the spiritual reality of these two nations: Jesus and the Sons of the Kingdom and their division from the Seed of Abraham.

Next Up - Jerusalem Above and Jerusalem Below | The Sun And The Moon

 

Nice thread man... Really, I'm looking forward to each addition! lol... Love IT!

Keep it coming....

 

Part 4 - Jerusalem Above and Jerusalem Below | The Sun And The Moon

​

Recall the symbolic drama of Sarah and Hagar stood for two covenants; two groups of people which emerged from Abraham, children of slavery (Israel) and children of freedom (Israel of God).

These covenanted people belonging to Jehovah are represented by the Jerusalem below and the Jerusalem above.

Similarly the children of these women represent the same symbolic drama. How so?

For example: the birth of Esau and Jacob and also Manasseh and Ephraim, where the younger will rule over the older.

As Jacob went to bless Joseph's two sons:

Joseph said to his father: “Not so, my father, because this is the firstborn. Put your right hand on his head.â€￾
But his father kept refusing and said:
“I know it, my son, I know it. He too will become a people, and he too will become great.
Nevertheless, his younger brother will become greater than he will, and his offspring will become the full equivalent of nations.â€￾

Genesis 48:18-19

So the children also represent the two covenants, this same theme is shown with subtle permutation throughout the Old Testament.

But even more amazing is that Jehovah informed mankind of these two covenants in the first chapter of the Bible; the metaphorical luminaries of the heavens.

In the beginning​

Then God said: “Let there be luminaries in the expanse of the heavens to make a division between the day and the night,
and they will serve as signs for seasons and for days and years.
They will serve as luminaries in the expanse of the heavens to shine upon the earth.â€￾
...16...
Thus God put them in the expanse of the heavens to shine upon the earth
and to dominate by day and by night and to make a division between the light and the darkness

Genesis 1:14-18

In the end​

And the city has no need of the sun nor of the moon to shine on it, for the glory of God illuminated it, and its lamp was the Lamb.
And the nations will walk by means of its light

Revelation 21:23

What does it all mean?​

The sun is the Israel of God, whose light shines on men during the day (after Christ). The moon is Israel, whose light shone on men during the night (before Christ).

They are both witnesses to the wonderful work of Jehovah, and testify to his holy and righteous rule over mankind. Serving as signs of SEASONS.

A division between the light (truth) and darkness (the lie).

And when the drama has come to a finish, the symbolic sun and the moon will no longer be required to provide light for mankind.

The light of the Jerusalem above and below will be replaced by Jehovah and the Lamb. By their light mankind will make a division between the light and dark.

Perfect spiritual understanding will flow from the mountains to all of mankind.

Let's not get ahead of ourselves though!​

First, the sun and moon must bow to Jesus Christ!

"This time the sun and the moon and 11 stars were bowing down to me."

The children of slavery rejected their King, as demonstrated by Joseph being sold into slavery, Judah's renouncing the lineage of David, and ultimately their dismissal of the Lamb of God.

Being temporarily consigned to enslavement until the full measure of the people of the nations join with the symbolic woman, then Jehovah will heal the broken twig of his people, and the woman will be complete.

Similarly the sun has become wayward, full of false teachers operating as men of light. It doesn't matter what 'church' we are talking about, this is TRUE.

Only when Jesus (Joseph) assumes Jehovah's (Pharaoh's) throne will the sun and moon be cleansed of unrighteousness and bow to Jesus with repentance and pureness of spirit towards God.

While we in the new covenant fight hard to accomplish this now, we are still 'running the race'.

But who is the symbolic woman?​

​

A woman was arrayed with the sun, and the moon was beneath her feet, and on her head was a crown of 12 stars, and she was pregnant.

Revelation 12:1b-2a

The woman is the totality of Sarah and Hagar. The two covenants, who gave birth to Christ, and provided legal witness to establish the sovereignty of Jehovah over his creation.

This is why the sun is arrayed around her head, and the moon is at her feet.

She is Jacob and Rachel, Jacob and Esau, Ephraim and Manasseh, the sun and the moon, the covenant of Christ and the covenant of Moses.

Her children are the two witnesses, figuratively pictured as Moses and Elijah, who witnessed Jesus transfiguration.

​

Next up: The Sun will be Darkened and the Moon will be as Blood

 

I'm glad you are enjoying it my friends.. almost done, you'll disagree with me on the next one Josh

 

I'm sure I know where you'll be going with the next one, because you left off on one of my favorite subjects...

 

Bleckk, I hate the last post I made, far too many colors and huge fonts :/ It took the wind out of my sails to see failure on such epic proportion.

But I want to finish this off, and show that the two witnesses don't NECESSARILY need to be two individuals operating as mobile fire turrets in Jersualem



One quick example: why are they dead for 3 days, and not 1260?

Could it be that they are a 'sign of Jonah'? Correlating with Jesus being in the ground for 3 days?

Could the sun being darkened and the moon turned to blood be the killing of these two witnesses?

This is what I would like to explore.

 

The two witnesses are dead three and a half days, not just three days.

One can ask them self many simple questions about this subject before going to the scriptures. One, how did Jehovah disseminate information to others in the past? Did he just magically put the truth into a group of peoples minds, or did he send individuals to teach the group? At any point in the past were these two witnesses anything other then individuals, have they ever denoted a group? Did Jehovah use magic to destroy the world in Noah's day, or did he use natural means?

The point being this will be the same in the time of the end. We know from Dan 12:4 that in the time of the end the "true" knowledge will become abundant. Is that by holy spirit just implanting that into Christs brothers, has that ever happened before in history? Why did Jesus send his disciples by two? Why were there two at the transfiguration of Jesus, why are Joshua and Zerubabbel spoken of as individuals? Who went to pharaoh, a group, or two individuals? Was Elijah that the disciples were looking for a group of people or an individual? I could go on and on with the biblical history of two witnesses.

The idea that the two witnesses of Rev are representative of a group is a theory not taught by scripture and is in kin to chasing the trinity idea.

You must have an individual or two with the "true" knowledge that will spread the truth to others, that's the way it always has been.

Now to the scriptures;

“These are the two anointed ones who are standing alongside the Lord of the whole earth.†​(Zech 4:14)

“What do these two olive trees on the right side of the lampstand and on its left side mean?" (Zech 4:11b)

"And I will cause my two witnesses to prophesy a thousand two hundred and sixty days dressed in sackcloth. â€These are symbolized by the two olive trees and the two lampstands and are standing before the Lord of the earth." (Rev 11:3,4)

Two ones... Do you see it? These scriptures say two ones... There is no way around the fact that Zech is saying that the two olive trees in Rev 11 are two "ones". <~~~ Period

“These are the two anointed ones who are standing alongside the Lord of the whole earth.†(Zech 4:14)

"These" / ’êl-leh = These

"Two" / Å¡ə-nê = Two

"Ones" / ḇə-nê- = Sons

"Anointed" / hay-yiṣ-hār; = Oil

"These" Define a group of whom we are speaking of, in that of the two previous mentioned as Joshua and Zerubbabel.

"Two" As a noun represents the number in this group. The group were already mentioned in the word "these".

"Ones" Denotes (noun) their position as sons.

"Anointed" Defines their responsibility and position as it pertains to Jehovah's organizational structure.

You cannot have the word "two" in rev 11 meaning a group if in Zech the individuals are represented by the "ones" or "sons", and the two is used as numbering them. They are literally two single individuals.

"Modern theologians, such as John Walvoord, have furthered the point of indivisualism by comparing the "two lampstands" and the "two olive trees" of Revelation 11 to the two golden pipes and two olive trees/branches ofZechariah 4. By the identification of the two olive branches as "two anointed ones" or "two sons of the oil", in Zechariah, this reinforces the literalist interpretation that the two witnesses are two people. The personification of the two witnesses in Revelation, is so prevalent that according to theologian William Barclay, the passage seems to refer to two definite persons." (Wikipedia)

I want to start off by walking you through the connection between the two appointed witnesses in Rev 11 and their description in Zech. These two witnesses are individuals and not those in the new covenant as a whole. This could only definitively be determined through chronology and we will touch base on this a bit more, however I want to touch on Zech 3. It is a very common misunderstandning that Joshua is Jesus. This is by far a complete mistake for many reasons, and let's show why. Number one, Joshua is seen in befouled garments at Zech 3:3; "Now as for Joshua, he happened to be clothed in befouled garments and standing before the angel." This is a condition of sin, and there is no way to explain this away for this sin is forgiven him in verse 4; “See, I have caused your error to pass away from upon you, and there is a clothing of you with robes of state.â€

Now is this definitive? No, however we will show a couple of scriptures that are definitive. Starting with Zech 3:8; "Hear, please, O Joshua the high priest, you and your companions who are sitting before you, for they are men serving as portents; for here I am bringing in my servant Sprout!" Here it is clear that Joshua and Jesus "Sprout" are spoken of separately and distinctly. Let's also look at Zech 6:11-14; "And you must take silver and gold and make a grand crown and put it upon the head of Joshua the son of Je‧hoz′a‧dak the high priest. And you must say to him, “‘This is what Jehovah of armies has said: “Here is the man whose name is Sprout. And from his own place he will sprout, and he will certainly build the temple of Jehovah. And he himself will build the temple of Jehovah, and he, for his part, will carry the dignity; and he must sit down and rule on his throne, and he must become a priest upon his throne, and the very counsel of peace will prove to be between both of them." Here you see the moment Joshua is raised, and then Jesus is presented to him. He says to Joshua, "Here is the man Sprout" then notice at the end of verse 14, "the very counsel of peace will prove to be between both of them". There it is, the absolute proof that Joshua is not Sprout, for they are of course two separate entities. The reason commentaries connect them is for they have no idea who these two are or what their work is.

In chronology it can be determined that these two are distinctly two individuals. These two are raised after three and a half days of death. This is the only time 3.5 is mentioned in day form instead of years in Rev. These are not dead for the 1260 day period for this is the time of their preaching work in sackloth. (Rev 11:3) They are literally dead only three and a half days. So, we know they are killed at the end of their preaching work, and as well not all remaining will be killed, but changed. (1Cor15:51) Those changed become the reports out of the north that the king of the north goes forward to destroy. (Dan 11:44)

In fact it doesn't say in Rev 11 that the two witness begin their work at the start of the 1260 days. It simply says they will prophecy in sackloth during that time. In fact they will show themselves before then. We will recognize them in their work. When these two witness the full moon at Rosh Hashanah beginning the time of the end. These two have a special relationship. Not only the love between them that exceeds any worldly understanding in which they would offer their lives for each other in an instant, but also their abilities scripturaly and relationship with Jehovah. They most certainly will compliment each other in their abilities.

 

I agree, it's not definitive

You're argument is predicated on so many assumptions, that if you knock one assumption out, the whole things falls.

Why conclude they are anything but Moses and Elijah? Aren't they the clear interpretation if we are to read the rest as literal?

The Bible is divided into two parts, two covenants, and two groups who witnessed Jehovah's works.

The sun and the moon seem to represent these covenants, and we know 'the sun will be darkened' and the 'moon as blood'.

Couldn't this be the killing of the witnesses? The whole Bible is an encoded message told through repeating conceptual events (while also physically occurring).

So the certain Jews, who realize they killed the messiah, join with certain Christians (the branch re-combined), and those are collectively killed by the beast for bearing witness.

These are the last '7000', the anointed - while outside in the courtyard are the 'great crowd'.

(edit: I agree, Zech and Rev 11)

(oop, double edit: yeah, failed to type 3.5 .. sorry about that)

Point is: could it be the sign of Jonah, rather than 3.5 literal days, considering the occurrences of 3.5 years.

 

OK, good point about the 3.5 days - just figured out your chronology argument.

But the conceptual point stands - it doesn't need to be two people, it could be two groups, two covenants, represented by the final anointed killed in that end phase.

 

Scripture in it's entirety supports the individual two witness idea, being far from a house of cards, (as you propose), the Zech 3, 4 and Rev 11 connection is absolute proof of the two being individuals. There is no way to disconnect these chapters nor the fact that Zech clearly describes these two as individuals, for he describes the group, then their identities, then numbers them.

May I post one more time for your comment please; And please comment;

Please comment on the connection above between Zech 3, 4 and Rev 11... It can be no clearer then what scripture clearly says between these chapters. Zech clearly separates the identities from the number of them.

The reason your coming to a halting point in this thread (If I may be so bold) is because of this subject. I have loved what you have presented so far, it has been one of my favorite threads ever in all these years. Honestly, I really admire what you have put into it, the art, the thought, the foresight, but I can tell you are hesitant to carry your thoughts further because you are going to get into the definite. You are now stepping into a point where you want to prove an idea without scriptural evidence. To be honest I think you should look more toward the two covenants. One being for the Messiah to Abraham, the other for a Kingdom to Christs brothers, having nothing to do with a group as a whole but the idea itself. Think about the logistics my friend, the reality of possibilities.

Show me where in scripture the two witnesses are to represent more then two! It doesn't exist, that is chasing after wind and what we call in America my dear citizen friend is a fallacy!

Now I will comment on the post you left as I'm replying to this one...

The reason the three and a half days are so important are they mirror the 70th week. If you have read the thread on the subject here you would understand the half of the week. Jesus is enthroned in the time of the end starting the 70th week, this equals its first fulfillment when he was baptized in 29CE. Then three and a half years later Jesus was killed, this in the end fulfills the two witnesses being killed. Then three and a half years after Jesus was resurrected Cornelius was brought into the fold, along with all of mankind. In the time of the end, three and a half days later the two witnesses are raised and there is a message to the whole world and allows all of mankind to enter the promised land. The "many" in Dan 9:27 is Israel and represents the spiritual Israel of the future. The weeks become literal in the time of the end...

Brother I can only leave off with a few last words on this post. Trust me... Does that work? lol... Well then, how about this, the only way to understand each individual prophecy is to know which one comes before or after another. Why more people don't understand that, I don't know. I could share with you why chronology is so close to me, and so important to me, but I think I have written on our DB about my history before, but mostly only in private messages with those close.

Let me say SingleCell, that you are one of my favorite persons to discuss scripture with. You may not have known that, but you are. It's because so few can have this discussion with me, let alone make me think, and I appreciate Jehovah for your abilities. You make me grow, and I thank you for that my dear friend. No matter what, we have a very fulfilling future together in Jehovah's work, and I do hope we both are part of the fulfillment of the 6th chapter of Eze 9.

You say, "I agree, it's not definitive " that just means that there is a good chance in your mind you could be wrong. Please study the connections I have presented between Zech 3, 4 and Rev 11, as well as all of human history, then think more into how Jehovah plans to bring true knowledge to believers in the time of the end, will it be by implanting knowledge into thousands of minds in an instant, or to send out an individual or two who just so happens to have the abilities to decipher, (with the help of Holy Spirit) what true chronology will be...

What does history show? What does history show? and a third for emphases, what does history show? (Zech 3, 4 Rev 11)

 

No... You can not connect the 3.5 days to the 1260 days, or 42 months by any means. Clearly 3.5 days are spoken of as simply such, while 1260 days are meant as such, so are the 3.5. It's after the 1260 days end that the two are dead for the 3.5 days.

Clearly it would be in error to say these two time periods would coincide in chronology. They are with out a doubt two separate lengths of time.

 

Think about what you are saying, that physically every single anointed left on earth would be killed at the same time, this is not what scripture says.

"Look! I tell you a sacred secret: We will not all fall asleep in death, but we will all be changed." 1Cor 15:51

Besides the logistics would make it impossible to have every single remaining anointed killed at the same moment, and not what scripture teaches, and not how history does things. We also know from Rev 14 that some in union with Christ will still die after Babylon falls. This will be after the two witnesses have been resurrected.

“Write: Happy are the dead who die in union with the Lord from this time onward. Yes, says the spirit, let them rest from their labors, for the things they did go right with them.â€￾ Rev 14:13

Therefore in no way can the two witnesses in Rev 11 represent the whole of the remaining anointed on earth in the time of the end and the 3.5 days, for some will survive the end and as well others will be killed at different times...