“What is the meaning of the two bunches of twigs of the olive trees that are pouring out the golden liquid through the two golden tubes?â€￾
So he asked me: “Do you not know what these things mean?â€￾
I replied: “No, my lord.â€￾
He said: “These are the two anointed ones who are standing alongside the Lord of the whole earth.â€￾

Zechariah 4

Olive Trees: two covenanted groups
Branch according to Jesus illustration: Israel
Grafted branch according to Jesus illustration: Christians
Bunches: more than one twig, a group of twigs, who come from the two covenants

Who are the two 'bunches of twigs'?

Zechariah 12 identifies the first bunch - 1/4 of natural Israel when they recognize the messiah, after the 'full measure of the nations' are grafted in. And sons of the kingdom, who come from the new covenant.

Together they are: the anointed two witnesses, particularly during the last days, as Zechariah 12 makes clear

I see no reason to conclude that we're talking about TWO INDIVIDUALS; but if we are concluding that, then we already know the identity of these two: Moses and Elijah

Looking at this spiritually however, what could Moses and Elijah represent?

Isn't it clearly "natural Israel" and the annointed sons of the kingdom?


How about this correlation:

"When they have finished their witnessing, the wild beast that ascends out of the abyss will wage war with them and conquer them and kill them."

Rev 11:7

(two witnesses)


"It was permitted to wage war with the holy ones and conquer them"

Rev 13:7a

(holy ones)

"I kept watching as that horn made war on the holy ones, and it was prevailing against them"

Daniel 7:21

(holy ones)

"It grew so great that it reached all the way to the army of the heavens, and it caused some of the army and some of the stars to fall to the earth, and it trampled them down."

Daniel 8:10

(holy ones)

"He will bring mighty ones to ruin, also the people made up of the holy ones"

Daniel 8:24b

(holy ones)

“As soon as the dashing to pieces of the power of the holy people comes to an end, all these things will come to their finish.â€￾

Daniel 12:7b

(holy ones)

So the 'two witnesses' prophecy for (I'm guessing, 3.5 years), at the end of which, they are conquered.

Also, the holy ones prophecy for (I'm guessing 3.5 years), at the end of which, they are conquered.


They are dead on the streets of "Jerusalem" for 3.5 days and then resurrect.


[thanks for reading Joshua, I love your posts as well, they get me thinking! ]

 

“But reports out of the east and out of the north will disturb him, and he will go out in a great rage to annihilate and to devote many to destruction."

Daniel 11:44

Would you agree that this is the same event as the beast devoting the holy ones to destruction?

What are the reports from the north-east?

That is where Ephraim (Northern Kingdom - Jeroboam) was destroyed by Assyria in 720 BCE, and will come back to the 'woman' when they see the 'son' they pierced, and heal the broken branch. (Ezekiel 37, and Zechariah 12)

They were stationed to the 'north and east'.


This is a key concept:

‘This is what the Sovereign Lord Jehovah says: “I will take the Israelites from among the nations where they have gone, and I will collect them together from every direction and bring them to their land.
22 I will make them one nation in the land, on the mountains of Israel, and one king will rule over all of them, and they will no longer be two nations; nor will they be divided any longer into two kingdoms.
23 They will no longer defile themselves with their disgusting idols and their detestable practices and all their transgressions.
I will save them from all their unfaithfulness by which they have sinned, and I will cleanse them. They will be my people, and I myself will be their God.
24 “‘My servant David will be their king, and they will all have one shepherd."

Ezekiel 37

At the time Ezekiel 37 was written, the Northern Kingdom was DESTROYED!! This is a clear allusion to Israel and the Israel of God.

 

Indeed!

You reference Malachi, thank you for bringing that in - I was actually referring to Matthew 17:1-9 where Moses and Elijah "witness" Christ's transfiguration.

To me this establishes the 'two witnesses' standing beside the Lord of heaven as being representative of these two notions, or covenants.

If we are to say the 'two witnesses are literally two people' then we shouldn't step outside of a literal interpretation and MUST conclude (IMO) that they are Moses and Elijah.

 

One other point, which I would consider key, in order to avoid deception:

What are the 'wonders' that they will perform?

Are they going to be blasting fire at people out of their mouths? Are they going to stop the rain? Are they going to turn the water to blood?


This is purely my opinion, but concluding that this will be literal sets us up to miss their ministry in the EXACT same way the Jews missed the messiah.

They were looking for a 'savior' to come and SHOW THOSE JERKS who is boss... most people see the two witnesses in the same way as the Jews saw the promised messiah.

 

Well then may the spirit be with you brother, I look forward to your post!

 

Go to bed You-tuna!

Now you're just holding me in limbo!



(feel free to delete our redundant back and forth, to keep the thread clean, if you so choose)

 

Absolutely brilliant Utuna!

I NEVER considered the Moses / Joshua - John / Jesus connection.

You make an interesting point about the rainless 3.5 years being a direct assault against the 'god of nature' and the sky.

Similarly the 10 plagues on Egypt were direct assaults on Egypt's gods ... hmmm. Things to ponder.

-- the shutting of rain by the two witnesses -- what god needs to be conquered in today's world, and what 'drought' would vindicate Jehovah?

 

I only have a moment for a quick response.

When the disciples were saying Elijah must come first, were they looking for a group? Jesus explained Elijah had come in John. A single man that was Elijah like. Why do you think Jehovah would do anything different in the time of the end. I hear all of this talk about the spirit magically implanting information to a mass group. How would Jehovah bring true knowledge to many in the time of the end???? How has he ever done it???? Why all of a sudden does there have to be some mystery about this subject? It's very simple, an individual (or in this case) two bring truth to the others in the time of the end. That's what it says.

Moses, Daniel, Jesus, Paul, Noah, on and on and on..... What did they do? They brought truth to others from God. Did God implant anything in their heads, or did he speak and teach them through scripture?

There is no precedence for a group to bring true knowledge to mankind in the end, it has always been individuals, why would that ever change? John is the example that the two witnesses will be individuals in the Moses-Elijah type.

And by the way Zechariah connects directly the two "ones" (individuals) to the two witnesses of Rev 11 and Zech says they are Joshua-Zerubbabel. The two in the time of the end are individuals, that's what the scriptures say, and all of this flight of fancy is trying to impose a group where there is none. It's like trying to prove the trinity, there just isn't any scriptural proof, period...

Where, please give me direct scriptural evidence that the two in Rev 11 are not individuals but a group. Does not the Zech 3, 4 to Rev 11 connection put an end to the multiple idea? Does not Zech 4 clearly say, "the two anointed ones" Have you looked into the original text, and sentence structure to recognize Zech is saying these are two individuals? As well the clear connection of the olive trees along side the lampstands and beside the lord of the whole earth, turning a blind eye to scriptural fact and history is ludicrous.

 

To address that:

The bible refers to groups of people as individuals. Jacob == the nation of Israel for example, or Judah = the southern Kingdom.

The 'two anointed' before Jehovah are 'bunches' of twigs, which on the surface is more than singular.

Also, looking at the correlating verses I posted, the 'holy ones' experience the exact same situation as the 'two witnesses' at the exact same time, there is AT LEAST impetus to draw a correlation there.

-------

"There is no precedence for a group to bring true knowledge to mankind in the end, it has always been individuals, why would that ever change?"

That is not correct though!

What are the Levites? What is the Christian system? The apostles? The judges?

You are a Christian today because a group of people bore witness to the truth. Perhaps an individual was directly responsible, but they represented the group.

I contend that this is the PRIMARY method for Jehovah imparting knowledge.

What about the blowing of the trumpets to bring the walls of Jericho down?

The common unifying force is the Holy Spirit.

Furthermore, the two witnesses are NOT there to impart knowledge to the world, but to condemn it, this is why they have 'fire' coming out of their mouths - and why the world celebrates when 'they' are killed.


Utuna's post about Elijah's direct assault on Baal is an apt comparison - the two witnesses directly assault the 'god' of our modern world through figurative fire on an altar.

AND ONE MORE HUGE POINT - the 144,000 are a group who will speak with ONE voice, and impart knowledge to mankind. They collectively sing a new song.


"Where, please give me direct scriptural evidence that the two in Rev 11 are not individuals but a group"

This whole thread is filled with enough scriptural proof to see a *possible* framework where they are not individuals. Strong proof even, I think.

Enough to theorize that the holy ones are the two witnesses, the 'bunches of twigs' that come out of the rejoined branch of Ephraim and Judah!

 

I want to modify one statement I made.

"the two witnesses are NOT there to impart knowledge to the world, but to condemn it"

That isn't completely true, they are speaking the truth ... the net effect is condemnation, because the world rejoices when they are killed.

Joshua: from your understanding of the timeline, when does the sun darken / moon blood, when do the two witnesses die, and when are the holy ones conquered?

 

Depends on what you mean by "holy ones conquered". The temple was surrounded in 66CE, then the disgusting thing was placed 1290 days later in 70CE. So will be the time of the end, the constant feature is removed and courtyard surrounded then 1290 days later the disgusting thing will be placed. We know the three and a half days come after the 1260, so therefore they are not the same thing. They are literally 3.5 days.

Side note, I find it interesting you say the 144,000 are literal but the two witnesses are not. I just find that interesting, don't you? Think about it, the 144,000 represent all of the anointed and you believe that number is literal, yet you believe the two are not literal. Tell me, why didn't Rev just use the number 144,000 instead of two in chapter 11?

The answer to your question is the answer to this debate. Let me give you a shortened version of my history. I came into contact of a Watchtower when I was 18. I studied with only those who understood the deeper things over the years. I always questioned the connection of the heaven high tree and how it connected to the destruction of Jerusalem, (no matter what year it was). 20 years later and one of those moments I was trying to search for the connection, I came across Roberts site and pow, I read everything he wrote. I recognized the point in chronology he skewed and my work picked up from there, I can tell you exactly where that was, Dan 11:31. Robert cuts up the chapter of Dan 11 at this point and inserts verses 40-45 in between 31&32. This is because he failed to recognize that the constant feature and the disgusting thing being placed were two separate events separated by 1290 days. He and many others just saw them both as the same event. With that said I knew at that point that the only way to understand what every prophecy and event was you needed to know which event and prophecy came before or after another. So therefore I set out to only determine that. I did not want to consider what each event was but to first understand the chronology, then later everything else fell in place...

So your question is of the most importance... The answer;



But my friend, it's pretty simple with me, there are only three dates within our lifetimes that the end could begin, so it will blatantly be obvious whether the chronology above is correct or not however, I've tried to understand the odds that the Jewish holidays yet to be fulfilled would fall so perfectly in line with the chronology of Daniel only in certain times in history, and the odds are beyond my comprehension, and keep in mind each holiday lands on the day that the event occurs. The odds alone exclude that any of the chronology is from man, but that all things are from Jehovah.

Please remember that nothing I present is of my own understanding, but all things were already there and are amazingly Jehovah's foresight.

 

Because it's quite simple, either both numbers are symbolic, or both are not.