Also, I find it so interesting that after 6000 years of human history prophecy had usually at least two fulfillment's in scripture, yet some exclaim that the next fulfillment will be metaphorical other then physical, other then it had always been in the past, and something other then what it's first fulfillment's were. It was always individuals, but in the future it will be magic... Oh... Okay...

When Noah was designated to bring truth to the world, was what he did a metaphor, or did he physically go out and do the work? Ask him when you speak to him next, I will be standing right behind you. When Moses and Arron went to Pharaoh, was that a metaphor for all of the chosen ones? But all of a sudden the end is different... Hmmm... Okay, I understand clearly what you keep saying. Every single example of prophecy in the past is a lie, oh, okay...

The flood example will be different from the end as well right? Moreover, "just as it occurred in the days of Noah, so it will be in the days of the Son of man" Oh wait, I've missed the story of a group obtaining understanding magically and presenting that to the world. Was it not an individual doing so? Oh, I must be missing the fact the whole bible is a big code, and the past has nothing to do with the future fulfillment, oh yea, it must be me... No way could original fulfillment give us understanding for it's future fulfillment, And who, who was the Bible created for?????

Two came against Egypt, two reconstructed Jerusalem, two were sent out to represent Christ, yet the two in the end are just some magical representation of some metaphysical number, and Holy Spirit will just magically fulfill Dan 11 where in the time of the end true knowledge will become abundant. No, perhaps your right and holy spirit will implant true understanding to human kind instead of two individuals bringing that truth to the kings. Oh, I'm the one that's wrong from taking history into consideration. What does Rev 11 say, two? Oh, it doesn't mean that though, oh......... Okay, then Jesus didn't mean two when he sent them by two... Ummmm, where are we now? Jesus didn't mean go out two by two????

144,000, hmmm.... Don't continue down that road... I can object ten fold the number of 144,000, if the two are separate from the 144,000... Coming from the 12 tribes? 144,000? Do you understand how easy it would be to make that number metaphoric?

I say they both are physical, yet some say they have special separation... You can continue to read Christendoms understanding of Zechariah all day long, and post their ramblings on our DB, but really, will you hang your hat on it? It seems to be you will so far... I can pick a part your last post and their representation of Joshua and Zerubbabel as metaphors, easier then I can make an apple pie but, I thought I would send an olive branch instead first, instead of showing up and making an example of your copy and paste's...

Jehovah will just change in the time of the end I guess. The time of the end will be special in scripture and there wont be prophets of Jehovah to address Pharaoh and the world... The time of the end has no example in history and the past. The past has nothing to do with teaching us the future... I see...

Yea, history can't teach us anything... Every precedence in scripture was just stories, and to bad too, they could have taught us something...

It's okay, when John says there are two witnesses, we don't have to believe him...

Excuse the presumptuousness however, the chronology defines the event, I wont discredit you for your lack of concern for why the 3.5 days have nothing to do with the 1260...

Oh yea, I am so presumptuous to assume that when scripture says "two" It means two... Yea, it's me who presumes...

It is not me who needs to prove a theory, it is you. The scripture says "two" It says two, and not three, yet it's me who presumes...

You just throw away the fact that Zech 4 describes the two in Rev 11 as singular by bringing in Christendom's understanding. Posting and posting their ramblings on Zech 4 is just like placing the bread in the mouths of every passer by, but think for a moment what you are doing, you are just pissing in the wind, just like every Trinitarian who skews scripture in order to create a smoke screen for an idea to permeate your understanding...

 

The 3.5 days are the proof.

 

It's the chronology that ultimately proves it. I have yet to hear an explanation of what the 3.5 days are, and how they are dead during that time. If you understand the two witnesses are to represent all of the anointed left on the earth surely you can explain how they are killed and what those 3.5 days are.

 

A few possibilities:

1. It's representative of Christ's sacrifice - the 'sign of Jonah"
2. It's literally 3.5 days
3. It references the last 3.5 years when the beast overcomes the 'holy ones'

Either choice doesn't confirm or invalidate the two witnesses being individuals OR groups

Specifically, what do you mean about chronology proving it? What verses?

 

Such is my point. How can one come to a complete picture without having that answer.

In the very same chapter John tells us their preaching work lasts 1260 days. Surely you would agree with me that these two numbers either need to be literal or prophetic together. If 1260 days means what it says, then the 3.5 days must mean literally 3.5 days. Right? So unless your prepared to say the 1260 days are meant to be years, then you can not say the 3.5 are years. Do you not agree?

We also know these 3.5 days come into the picture after the 1260 days end, because the two witnesses prophecy 1260 days and after their prophesying they are killed. Therefore their death for 3.5 days falls after the 1260 days end.

When I say that chronology is the proof, this is what we are discussing.

As for Jonah, he was in the belly three days and nights, not 3.5 days.

Now hopefully logic is telling you these 3.5 days must be days just as the 1260 are, so therefore you have to ask the next question. How do you have all the anointed on earth dead for 3.5 days? That certainly doesn't match prophecy anywhere.

No one on this board can affirm their theory that the two witnesses represent a group, without answering that question.

 

"In the very same chapter John tells us their preaching work lasts 1260 days. Surely you would agree with me that these two numbers either need to be literal or prophetic together. If 1260 days means what it says, then the 3.5 days must mean literally 3.5 days. Right? So unless your prepared to say the 1260 days are meant to be years, then you can not say the 3.5 are years. Do you not agree?"

Maybe I do agree

The Bible is not one of those books where ideas are presented in a straight forward manner. There is cross referencing, symbolism, types, etc. (you know this of course)

Even at 3.5 literal days, your assumption is that 'all the remaining anointed' CANNOT be killed on the same day.

Is it possible that a group of people could be mass killed / transformed on one day? Yes, it is.

In short, I'm certainly not opposed to two individuals - I don't think it is clear, it can either be spiritually understood, or literally understood.


Since you believe they are literally two people, then we have to follow through and they will blast fire out of their mouths, be killed in Jerusalem, stop the rain, and be presented to the world on cable news.

Or is that part symbolic?

It's the same mistake the Jews (Pharisees primarily) made missing Jesus as the messiah - their interpretation was too literal, they wanted vengeance on Rome. In short, they wanted Jesus to make their enemies PAY.

[and maybe that does happen, this time, given the climactic nature of the revealing!]

So can the 1260 be literal, and the 3.5 be symbolic? I see no problem with that.

I have no problem with it being 3.5 literal days either.

It's possible that a group like the '7000 who didn't worship Baal' exist and are killed together.

 

Here are the choices we have I think (am I missing options?):

1. two individuals
2. literal or figurative miracles
3. literally moses and elijah, or represented by moses and elijah

1. two groups
2. literal or figurative miracles
3. represented by moses and elijah

 

More basic argumentation:

Holy ones and two witnesses are killed by the beast from the abyss.
Holy ones and two witnesses are witnessing to the world.
Holy ones and two witnesses are anointed.

Ezekiel 37 and Zechariah 4 use the same metaphor (trees, branches and twigs).

Ezekiel 37 talks about rejoining a broken stick represented by Judah and Ephraim.

Zechariah 4 talks about two trees, and twigs from those trees are the two anointed (witnesses).

Paul calls Sarah and Hagar representative of two covenants.

It seems to me that this means something, though I'm probably wrong!

We (I?) believe Jesus could be Michael using this reasoning- event and intention relationships.

 

I originally explored that idea, but it hits a brick wall as well. You can't have all the anointed killed in the time of the end because we know not all will die in death.

1Cor 15:51; "Look! I tell you a sacred secret: We will not all fall asleep in death, but we will all be changed,"

We also know that even after Babylon falls that some anointed will still be here on earth alive and will still be killed, yet some will not. This is extremely late in the time of the end and well after the 1260 days, even after the two witnesses are killed and in fact after Babylon falls.

Rev 14:12,13; "Here is where it calls for endurance on the part of the holy ones, those who keep the commandments of God and hold fast to the faith of Jesus.â€￾ And I heard a voice out of heaven say, “Write: Happy are the dead who die in union with the Lord from this time onward. Yes, says the spirit, let them rest from their labors, for the things they did go right with them.â€￾

So therefore any idea that all of the anointed would be killed in the time of the end falls flat. Let alone all at the exact same moment, the logistics are impossible anyway if you really think about it, because God isn't going to help them do this, it would be down to man, how would you even find them all?

I was down that road years ago.

To be quite honest, at this moment I have no idea what the fire and rain mean. I don't...

When I addressed this issue originally I didn't suppose the two were individual or group until all the chronology was done. Now the conclusion I came to was after putting all the pieces together. One being the chronology itself. These three and a half days MUST be 3.5 days if the 1260 days are literal. As well these days fall after the 1260 days that Jerusalem is trampled on. So the three and a half days would have to be after the new kingdom was established when Jesus is enthroned. And have nothing to do with Jerusalem being trampled on because that ended when the 1260 days ended.

I also take into consideration every scripture that discusses the anointed in the time of the end, and they clearly show that not all will be killed. As well the fact that some will even still die after they have been changed. Those still alive here on earth will be transfigured like Jesus and Stephen, Moses, yet still be human. There are 40 days between the moment they are transfigured and Jesus comes to collect them. Just like Jesus was here on earth 40 days after being resurrected, so will the 144,000. This is during the great tribulation that lasts 40 days.

As well, I take quite serious what has already occurred in the past and how Jehovah does things. Jehovah always used individuals to bring truth to the earth, and there is no reason not to believe the same will be in the time of the end.

The fact that Zechariah describes the two in Rev 11 as individuals is just another piece of the puzzle.

The seventieth week of Dan 9 describes Jehovah fulfilling his covenant to the "many=Israel" for one week. That was when Jesus was baptized in fulfillment to Abraham. At the half of the week he was killed, ending gift offerings. Then three and a half years later the new covenant was extended to the rest of the world when Cornelius was baptized. This mirrors the 70th week in the time of the end. Jesus will be enthroned, 3.5 days later the two witnesses are killed. Then 3.5 days later they are resurrected and a message to the whole world is given to allow anyone living to gain entrance into the new world by not taking the mark of the beast.

So you see, my understanding has nothing to do with what I want to believe. It has everything to do with the bible as a whole.

 

Just a quick thought, we could be both looking at the same coin from opposite sides. I keep saying it's heads you say it's tails even though we are looking at the same coin. It's quite possible we could both be right.

Even though they would be two individuals, they would still be representatives of the 144,000 as a whole.

 

Yes indeed my brother.

These discussions are valuable, because we're both wrong ultimately, right? For certain we are going to realize something we don't yet understand, so this part is the journey!

Someday we'll laugh about this whole thing, and I look forward to that

 

My thoughts on this is that on the surface this idea is a bit like what the society does with the heaven high tree. They say because Israel was described as a tree then therefore Daniel was speaking about the fall of Jehovah's earthly representation of his headship, but many nations were described as trees...

The use of trees and branches were used in many places in the bible. Even Jesus used the metaphor of trees and branches and fruits to describe many things. I can think of many times these words are used as metaphors. Where you can get into trouble is if you start directly connecting Eze 37 with Zech 4. I don't see enough evidence to connect these two chapters. Unlike for example the connection between Zech 4 and Rev 11 being undeniable.

There is a pattern to many things throughout scripture, and they are all for the help of us to decipher the time of the end, but we must be careful not to see a pattern when there is no real connections.

Eze 37 tells you exactly what those twigs mean, and trying to connect those to the olive trees of Zech 4 I'm afraid, is kin to what I mentioned about the heaven high tree the WTS claims.

I don't see a problem with the OT prophesying two covenants, I have liked that idea when you started this thread, but literally connecting that with the two witnesses I believe is in error, for many reasons, none more so then there is no direct connection, but keep in mind that Jehovah's covenant to Israel was fulfilled with Christs baptism and ended when the whole world could enter the new covenant.

The physical Jews have nothing to do with the time of the end as a race in prophecy. That takes us back to saying Jehovah is racist to say on one hand the Jewish race is specially singled out then on the other the rest of mankind. Then you have the debate of what makes you Jewish, your beliefs, your genes. Then how much of the Jewish gene do you need to be Jewish, two parents a grandparent? You start to head down the road of the Germans during WWII.

Now like I said, we could both be right, that the two witnesses are two individuals, yet still represent the 144,000 as a whole and we could even apply the two covenants to each of the two, for they will be different and have different skills, and will have different works in the time of the end.

I think the right answer may be to combine both ideas...

 

The more I think about it, I think we may be on to something... I think that very well may be the answer.

I think we've been arguing the opposite sides of the coin. Dang, why didn't I see that sooner. My abilities are in the numbers and order of events, and someone like you and Utuna see the metaphorical sides, or heart of scripture.

Even though they are two, they still represent the whole 144,000, and they represent everything pertaining to them all!

I wonder what Utuna thinks about this idea, but sense he's on the wrong side of the world, I'm sure he's sleeping right now...