The "great tribulation" spoken about by Jesus...what is it ? Matt 24:21

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    Jahsdisciple

    Jahsdisciple Guest

    The “great tribulation†spoken about by Jesus...what is it ? Matt 24:21

    One of the signs of the end being close is the Great Tribulation. This ties in with the harvest work..which is a conclusion of the system used to complete the harvest. During the end,the harvest starts because the kingdom has to be born in order for the system to end. Revelation 12:2 And the Harvest is the final gathering of invited anointed who choose to STAY wheat,but also making it clear who are the weeds,apostate wheat.

    So what is the actual meaning of “Tribulation†so we may better understand its application.

    A tribulum...from which the word tribulation comes from.

    “(According to this illustration, the farmer gathers the wheat into the storehouse, and burns up the leftover chaff, only after the wheat has been threshed, and the separating of grain from chaff is done. The act of this threshing, is literally embodied in the word, "tribulation". This word "tribulation" comes from the French verb, "tribulare", which means to thresh wheat. The tool used to do this is a "tribulum" The "Great Tribulation" will be the greatest segregation of wheat from chaff, that has ever occurred among Christians. As the term implies, this separating will be accomplished through a severe test, as if by repeated blows, brought on by the wicked Ruler of the World, who according to Jesus, has "demanded to sift you (the Chosen) as wheat."! Once these Chosen are divided into "sealed faithful" and unsealed wicked, the faithful will be "gathered into the storehouse"/wedding feast; and the unfaithful will be burned up with fire as unfit.)This gathering into the storehouse, is done after the wheat is threshed. That threshing is called, tribulation.†(From Doxcey) http://pearl-laborpains.blogspot.com.au/

    So what is the “great tribulation†that the signs are part of and talking about ? Its what ALL remnant invited anointed are going through in order to be sifted and shown as wheat or weeds. These are the ones being “tribulated†to prove what they are and thus end satans “accusing†“The harvest is the conclusion of the system of things†So just before the end of the system,there would be a harvest...and a harvest is where the wheat and weeds would be thrashed using a tribulum to extract the wheat.

    The wheat would be thrashed/tribulated because of satans accusations. Revelation 12:10. This is part of the harvest...what would happen just before the end of the system and Jesus arrival. So just before Jesus arrived,there would be a “great tribulationâ€...or more accurately....â€a Great Tribulating†via a tribulum upon the wheat before they were sealed as such. Jesus doesnt say this happens in any other time period..but it does happen just before he arrives at the end of the “harvest timeâ€

    So what is the “Great tribulation†? Its a “Great Tribulating†that would occur upon the remnant because Jesus predicted that the wheat and weeds would be gathered in the harvesting period AND separated. The ONLY way for this to happen is via the tribulating of ALL those invited anointed. This is why its called a Harvest ! Thats what happens in a harvest.

    At the conclusion of the system of things,the harvest would take place and part of that harvest period is the thrashing using a tribulum...and for those invited anointed being thrashed,this is the great tribulation ! Matthew 13:39 The harvest is a conclusion of a system of things. This happens because of satans accusations against Jesus Brothers.Revelation12:10

    Since Jesus refers to His brothers as wheat...and then he mentions a tribulum which is used in a harvest,which is a tribulation upon wheat like ones,the signs of the last days refers to what is happening amongst those invited. Jesus brothers.These are part of the Labour/Birth pains all invited go through.

    The term “last days†tells us what ? That the “harvest time†is short. Ask a farmer. Harvest time is short compared to the growing cycle of a crop. So Jesus was talking about the tribulation of his brothers as an indication that satans system will end shortly. And this is what Revelation tells us. Revelation 12:2 at the end of “her†labour pains,the Kingdom is born. When the thrashing/tribulation/“accusing†of the invited is over,satan will be kicked out of heaven and the Kingdom can begin its rule. The harvest and thrashing / tribulating tells us the harvest is closing...and soon the system will end. This is why these days are called the “last days†We are in the harvest season...and this is the conclusion of the system of things once the harvesting / tribulating is completed.

    The Labour/Birth pains tell us the Kingdom is soon to be born. And the tribulating is part of the Labour/Birth pains.

    As already mentioned,tribulation is from the word tribulum. It has to do with harvesting grain and with many beats or thrashing strokes the grain is removed from the chaff.

    But to further this point,we can ask:When is the greatest thrashing,thus tribulation to happen in history ?

    Greatest,as in GREAT Tribulation, can mean intensity and numbers involved.

    As we know satans system is going to be cut short via the Kingdom. BUT unless the Kingdom is complete via the full number being sealed,it cannot begin. Jesus also said that when the Harvest season was completed,there would be some wheat that would turn out to be weeds...because they would allow what satan has to offer to grow and take root. What would happen in their hearts turns them into weeds. These wheat choose to be children of satan.

    What would cause this changing in their heart. The thrashing via a tribulum is involved. “each one is enticed by a desire†then it become “fertile†said James. And this happens in the invited anointed heart. Is what Jehovah offers more important and desirable than anything satan has to offer ?. He can only offer what corrupted himself despite the beauty Jehovah had given him...and for some anointed,wanting to be looked up to via their anointing leads to a corruption like that of satan. The fallen flesh also has its cravings that satans world panders to. Fear of men stop many anointed from speaking about what they know is right by the Holy Spirit being upon them..and some ignore its leadings.

    So there are many machinations satan uses to tempt,thrash,entice these fine seed to allow their hearts to become a place for satans own desires to become fertile inside themselves.

    Since its the completed number of anointed that prove faithful and thus the Kingdom is going to be born then,what do you think satans will do in this regard ?

    This is why its called the greatest tribulating,thrashing of all time.

    The invited anointed will be put to the test like no other time. “satan has demanded you be sifted†said Jesus. We think of Job and what he endured. But he wasnt an invited anointed who would replace satan as ruler. The remnant of anointed are the ones who when faithful bring an end to satans rule are those singled out for special attention,since when they are finally sealed,the kingdom arrangement can begin.

    So in what way then is it the greatest tribulation ? More people at one moment in time are being singled out for a thrashing via satans tribulum/trials to show what is in their heart. Can satan make their fine seed turn into a weeds heart ? Will they join the harlot and beat their fellow invited anointed ? At a time when the kingdom will be born,there is only one thing stopping it,the completion of the harvesting and the numbers needed to complete the number of 144,000. So at this time then, invited anointed are being thrashed with satans tribulum ,machinations to try and change the fine seed hearts where Jesus planted the seed...and that has never happened in history before. “no,nor will occur again†because once the kingdom members are sealed,there will never be another time when members are 'thrashed/tribulated†to be part of the only Kingdom like the One Jesus is King over.

    Imagine the gigantic effort of satan and how his hordes are doing everything to corrupt Jesus brothers. He “accuses them day and nightâ€. If one accusation doesnt work,he will try another. Has anything like this ever happened ? No ! Has there ever been such numbers of Jehovahs dedicated and invited anointed being attacked at one time ? Has there ever been a time in history when satan knows one event...the sealing of Jesus' brothers so they can be members of a Kingdom that will end his rule ? No.

    What is it that STOPS the Kingdom being born..and thus ending his rule ? The sealing of the remnant. The final thrashing/tribulating that reveals who are wheat and thus part of the Kingdom.

    Look at Job and then multiply that by the 1,000s who are invited remnant living now and we then see why its is the greatest tribulation in history. So even though we may not see this happening,these events are recorded in the bible so we know whats going on. It surely is the greatest tribulation ever to occur in history...and since satan knows that when Jesus brothers have proved faithful his end is near “knowing he has a short period of timeâ€,we can imagine the desperation of tactics used to get them to turn to weeds. Jobs trials are nothing compared to what these ones are going through...many thousand times over in numbers.

    Satan would also like the anointed to think the “signs†spoken about by Jesus are in the world and not realise whats happening within those who are anointed as a group. If they remain asleep and not listen to other anointed trying to awaken them,then they cant be sealed..since they are invited. Part of the great tribulation is what we see happening in the Org. Apostate anointed are tightening their grip on JWs through the elder arrangement and stating they are the FDS. Which cannot be true because Jesus has not arrived. The latest “new light†even admits they are not the appointed FDS...yet still act like they are and demand honor for something they are not.

    Some anointed are allowing themselves to be tricked by blind loyalty to the Organisation that gave them the basics and were directed to these basics by JWs. However Jesus said that at the harvest time,the wheat would be gathered..and so anointed are tribulated by being divided in their loyalties to an Organisation they were directed to... rather than the One that invited them.

    JWs or the "FDS" are NOT the ones who invited them to be anointed. Jehovah did. So this is part of the tribulating they experience. Many are torn between loyalties. The lies the apostate anointed keep propagating is what keeps these blind so that they keep looking in satans world for the fulfilment of the “signsâ€,rather than in the Organisation because of apostate anointed and the drama of what is happening between wheat and weeds. If these anointed were aware of the weeds influence within the Organisation ,would this not open their eyes and make for changes in their loyalties ? YES. So satan uses these apostate anointed/Harlot to keep the lies in place so they can rule over their brothers,the same apostate anointed who beat their Brothers who speak out against the lies of the Harlot / weeds. What a fight/tribulation is occurring within the Organisation that is used to gather the wheat ! But,its just as Jesus said it would happen.

    Matt 24:6 in the greek says: “See,do not be upset,it is right for all things to happen.†For us of the domestics,what is happening is “upsetting†because of the wars between “brothers†of Jesus. “it is right for all things to happen.â€,yes,the tribulating is needed to show who is worthy of being a wheat so as to be part of the Kingdom. Without the Great Tribulation Jesus Brothers experience,the Kingdom cannot begin its rule or be “bornâ€.

    Satan would have us believe that the “Great tribulation†mentioned by Jesus is happening in the world..and it is true that mankinds stupidity is causing his own greatest tribulation in history. But events in the world do NOT end satans rule..its the invited anointed proving faithful that does bring its end..and so these ones are singled out for the greatest tribulation he can make so these ones prove unfaithful. But the thrashed/tribulated and proven faithful wheat will be victorious and the Kingdom will come ! Pray for our invited brothers so they withstand this Great Tribulation !
     
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    disco

    disco Guest

    Pearl's articles are very deep and sourced from the bible
     
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    Utuna

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    "Tribulare" isn't French but Latin.

    "Tribulation" is a word that comes from French, which comes from the Latin verb "Tribulare".

    Hey JD, who wrote that "article" ? D55 or you ?
     
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    Gabriel

    Gabriel Guest

    Thanks for the break down JD. I often wonder if the Great Trib will be just as severe for the other sheep as it will be for those annointed. I can only assume that it wont be due to the fact that we will be able to offer food,water,comfort to them. But at the same time Im not entirely certain because how will we be able to offer these things without "The Mark"? Wouldnt we...the other sheep be in just as much of a dire need as they are?
     
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    Utuna

    Utuna Administrator

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    Rev 3:10

    "Since you have kept my command to endure patiently, I will also keep you from the hour of trial that is going to come upon the whole world to test those who live on the earth."
    (from The Holy Bible: New International Version.
    Copyright © 1973, 1978, 1984, by International Bible Society)

     
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    Gabriel

    Gabriel Guest



    Guess that pretty much clears it up, eh?
     
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    Poetry of Providence

    Poetry of Providence Active Member

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    talk about getting an answer when you need one ....
    ok this thread has put some finely needed perspective
    into my internal struggles ...
     
  8. "Great Tribulation"

    Hi JD:

    Your argument here, or Doxies is situated on a very soft foundation. You sight the illustration of the sower and the seed as justification for your argument but it appears that you don't quite get it. One, no matter how hard you "flail" wheat in the beginning of the sifting process you cannot change the wheat on the threshing floor into weeds any more easily than you can turn the weeds into wheat. It just does not happen that way. Two, although you quote part of Luke 22:28-34 in your argument, you left out the most revealing part of that scripture.

    28“However, YOU are the ones that have stuck with me in my trials (except Judas) ;29and I make a covenant with YOU, just as my Father has made a covenant with me, for a kingdom,30that YOU may eat and drink at my table in my kingdom, and sit on thrones to judge the twelve tribes of Israel. 31“Simon, Simon, look! Satan has demanded to have YOU men to sift YOU as wheat.32But I have made supplication for you that your faith may not give out; and you, when once you have returned, strengthen your brothers.â€33Then he said to him: “Lord, I am ready to go with you both into prison and into death.â€34But he said: “I tell you, Peter, A cock will not crow today until you have three times denied knowing me.†Luke 22:28-34

    Jesus prayer was successful as can be seen by his exclamation to his Father in another prayer in John 17:12, " 11“Also, I am no longer in the world, but they are in the world and I am coming to you. Holy Father, watch over them on account of your own name which you have given me, in order that they may be one just as we are.12When I was with them I used to watch over them on account of your own name which you have given me; and I have kept them, and not one of them is destroyed except the son of destruction, in order that the scripture might be fulfilled.

    Jesus knew from the very beginning who were his seed and who were the seed of Satan. That's why he said in the illustration that the fine seed were the sons of the kingdom and that weeds are the sons of the wicked one. Not that they would become such, but that they already were.

    60Therefore many of his disciples, when they heard this, said: “This speech is shocking; who can listen to it?â€61But Jesus, knowing in himself that his disciples were murmuring about this, said to them: “Does this stumble ​YOU?62What, therefore, if ​YOU​ should behold the Son of man ascending to where he was before?63It is the spirit that is life‐giving; the flesh is of no use at all. The sayings that I have spoken to ​YOU​ are spirit and are life.64But there are some of ​YOU​ that do not believe.†For from [the] beginning Jesus knew who were the ones not believing and who was the one that would betray him.65So he went on to say: “This is why I have said to ​YOU, No one can come to me unless it is granted him by the Father.â€

    66Owing to this many of his disciples went off to the things behind and would no longer walk with him.67Therefore Jesus said to the twelve: “YOU​ do not want to go also, do ​YOU?â€68Simon Peter answered him: “Lord, whom shall we go away to? You have sayings of everlasting life;69and we have believed and come to know that you are the Holy One of God.â€70Jesus answered them: “I chose ​YOU​ twelve, did I not? Yet one of ​YOU​ is a slanderer.â€71He was, in fact, speaking of Judas [the son] of Simon Is‧car′i‧ot; for this one was going to betray him, although one of the twelve.

    So, Jesus knew "from the beginning" (vs 64) who were his seed and who was the seed of the wicked one. The word slanderer in verse 70 actually can be translated as devil as it comes from "diablos". Jesus knew Judas was Satan's seed from the very beginning.

    This is not unusual for angels. They know and can recognize if someone is "born again" whether that is from God or from Belial. Take the demons comment to the sons of Sceva in Acts 19:11-16. Because they are angelic (althougn demons) they recognize thier own (other born again seeds of Satan) and they recognize those who are faithful angels and also "born again" or "anointed" ones.

    11And God kept performing extraordinary works of power through the hands of Paul,12so that even cloths and aprons were borne from his body to the ailing people, and the diseases left them, and the wicked spirits came out.13But certain ones of the roving Jews who practiced the casting out of demons also undertook to name the name of the Lord Jesus over those having the wicked spirits, saying: “I solemnly charge YOU by Jesus whom Paul preaches.â€14Now there were seven sons of a certain Sce′va, a Jewish chief priest, doing this.15But in answer the wicked spirit said to them: “I know Jesus and I am acquainted with Paul; but who are YOU?â€16With that the man in whom the wicked spirit was leaped upon them, got the mastery of one after the other, and prevailed against them, so that they fled naked and wounded out of that house. Acts 19:11-16

    The evidence that this wicked spirit recognized the sons of Sceva as "born again" weeds of the wicked one is shown in that they were able to get mastery over them and possess them. Satan can only possess those that he has previously chosen as his "born again" seed. He also did this with Judas in John 13:27, Luke 22:3

    The real tribulation will come for the remnant of Christ when they have to leave the Watchtower (as Jesus' brothers had to leave the dying system of Judaism) that has all the glory and prestige of men but no more of the glory of God, and go to the "storehouse" of God which will have absolutely no glory and prestige of men but loads of the glory of God. This will be very hard for them, but they will "follow Jesus no matter where he goes", going from one house to the other.

    1And I saw, and, look! the Lamb standing upon the Mount Zion, and with him a hundred and forty‐four thousand having his name and the name of his Father written on their foreheads.2And I heard a sound out of heaven as the sound of many waters and as the sound of loud thunder; and the sound that I heard was as of singers who accompany themselves on the harp playing on their harps.3And they are singing as if a new song before the throne and before the four living creatures and the elders; and no one was able to master that song but the hundred and forty‐four thousand, who have been bought from the earth.4These are the ones that did not defile themselves with women; in fact, they are virgins. These are the ones that keep following the Lamb no matter where he goes. These were bought from among mankind as firstfruits to God and to the Lamb,5and no falsehood was found in their mouths; they are without blemish.

    The "anointed" who were gathered in the Watchtower followed the voice of Jesus which led them "out" of thier respective old dying faiths (whatever that faith may have been, even agnosticism or atheism) and into the Watchtower while it was still the collecting vessel of God, likewise, those of the remnant of Christ who are still in the Watchtower or have left (for various reasons) but have not joined themselves to a false church (they are still spiritual virgins) will hear the voice of Jesus and will leave thier current places and enter into the "storehouse" of God.

    By the way, it is the angels of Christ who will do the seperating and harvesting, not Satan. Yes, he will attempt to break thier faith, but he will not succeed, as he did not with any in Jesus day except the son of destruction. But as we have seen, he will have been the seed of the wicked one from the beginnning just like Judas was. There is so much more I would like to say, but that will have to do for now. Keep on Seeking, Asking and Knocking and you will find, it will be answered, and it will be opened to you. You will make many mistakes along the way but just get up, dust yourself off and seek, ask and knock again!

    frank
     
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  9. Hi Gabe:

    I have seen your picture before, but that is a nice looking couple.

    frank
     
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    Gabriel

    Gabriel Guest

    Awe, Thanks Bro. Much appreciated:)
     
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    Utuna

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    Hey Frank,

    Your post just impressed me ! WOW !!!

    I've rarely read posts so well phrased, structured and with so many pertinent spiritual arguments since a long time ago or maybe in reading posts written by members who have a very good knowledge and understanding of the Bible.

    I can't wait to read some more...

    Thanks for having shared your thoughts !
     
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    jehovahisgod

    jehovahisgod Experienced Member

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    their is referance to the 7 years of tribulation but I like to think that life itself is the greatest of all tribulations a trial of your soul.
     
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    Utuna

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    I have more to say but what I'll say and how I'll say it will depend on who is the author of that post.

    "Indeed, everyone to whom much was given, much will be demanded of him/[her];" - Luke12:48

    I agree with frank, you're a very nice looking couple. That picture is very nice.
     
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  14. Hi Utuna:

    I try to follow my own advice. In my study of God's Word I have made many interpretational mistakes in the last 37 years of my life and no doubt I will continue to do so, but I get up, recognize my mistake, repent of that mistake, dust myself off etc, etc. Every once in a while even a blind squirrel finds a nut. I may at times sound like I think I know it all, but believe me, I am well aware that I have only scratched the surface of the wisdom and knowledge in God's book. I just hope I continue learning for centuries to come.

    frank
     
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    Utuna

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    Dear Frank, nobody knows it all. Anyone saying so is a liar. Jesus plainly said that he didn't say it all because his disciples weren't ready to understand it all, which means that he understands that his disciples may not understand it all, but I personally think that what truly matters is how people react whenever they come across spiritual gems (=> truth lovers#) and above all what people do with the knowledge that they've been able to reach and grasp at any specific moment of their spiritual lives*. So many people know "the truth about the truth" and don't use it for upbuilding purposes and may even lose faith in God because of this... In that case, what's the best ? To know it all or to keep knowing the minimum officially accepted and, as a result, stay in good standing...? till Jehovah opens their hearts... The GT might well be a deadly test for them...

    Personally, mistakes aren't a problem for me. I prefer stringency to accuracy (to a certain extent, of course). I prefer people who defend their "erroneous" faith through thorough biblical research (to a certain extent, of course) than people who defend their faith by just parroting the garbage that they read on Internet or in the WT's articles...

    #“The kingdom of the heavens is like a treasure hidden in the field, which a man found and hid; and for the joy he has he goes and sells what things he has and buys that field." - Matt13:44

    * "However, become doers of the word, and not hearers only, deceiving yourselves with false reasoning. For if anyone is a hearer of the word, and not a doer, this one is like a man looking at his natural face in a mirror. For he looks at himself, and off he goes and immediately forgets what sort of man he is. But he who peers into the perfect law that belongs to freedom and who persists in [it], this [man], because he has become, not a forgetful hearer, but a doer of the work, will be happy in his doing [it]." - James 1:22-25
     
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    Jahsdisciple

    Jahsdisciple Guest

    Hey Utuna,
    The paragraph i have in quotes is from Doxcey,but the rest is my own research. I ddint know there were these replies.:)
     
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    Utuna

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    Ok, the quoted part is what is just located before the (from Doxcey) ? Am I right ?

    Whence did you take that excerpt, I searched into "Introduction, part I, part II, part III and found nowhere therein the excerpt that you chose...

    Argh ! I can't find it !
     
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    Jahsdisciple

    Jahsdisciple Guest

    How things are said on the net can be taken many ways,but when you word it like this,you are saying you are right and that Im missing something. Thats your view.

    And its arrogant to even be so cock sure that you say to someone "that you don't quite get it." ...as if you are forum expert,or some self apointed expert,which you are not. Ive never said Im 100% right about what i post,no-one can claim that,but if you want to reply,then maybe word it differantly like "have you considered this" instead of "that you don't quite get it." :cool:

    What does Jesus illustration of the wheat and weeds say... How does it start ? ALL are wheat,fine seed. So maybe you can explain HOW (since i dont get it) some then become weeds ? Jesus explains this. satan enters among them and then "a man did this" they choose to allow their hearts to change. Some of the wheat become weeds. They are ALL fine seed to begin with and satans efforts,like with Judas,change their hearts. they allow it.. "a man did this"

    Why would wheat be chosen if Jesus knew they would become a weed ? We have a choice even after we dedicate ourselves to Jehovah to then leave Him because our values change...if we ALLOW them to change. The change is the wheat allowing things to happen within them and they then become a weed.

    Jesus knew that some wheat would allow satan seed enter their hearts after being invited. Thus,"many are invited,but few are chosen". So can wheat change to a weed ? please read the illustration and see that it DOES happen.;)
     
  19. Hi JD:

    After reading my post, I have to agree that my language sounded a little harsh when I did not intend it that way. Please accept my apology. If you knew me you would know that I am not in the slightest bit arrogant, but again, I can see how you could take my comment that way.

    24Another illustration he set before them, saying: “The kingdom of the heavens has become like a man that sowed fine seed in his field.25While men were sleeping, his enemy came and oversowed weeds (not fine seed) in among the wheat, and left.26When the blade sprouted and produced fruit, then the weeds appeared also (although not said it must be in addition to the sprouting of the wheat from the fine seed).27So the slaves of the householder came up and said to him, ‘Master, did you not sow fine seed in your field? How, then, does it come to have weeds? ( not entirely weeds but weeds "also") ’28He said to them, ‘An enemy, a man, did this.’ They said to him, ‘Do you want us, then, to go out and collect them?’29He said, ‘No; that by no chance, while collecting the weeds, YOU uproot the wheat with them.30Let both grow together until the harvest; and in the harvest season I will tell the reapers, First collect the weeds and bind them in bundles to burn them up, then go to gathering the wheat into my storehouse.’†He didn’t say no because you may turn the wheat into weeds, he said that you may uproot the wheat while trying to pull out the weeds. This is because until just before harvest, bearded darnel looks just like wheat, but when the harvest is ready the weight of the heads of wheat makes them bow as in humility whereas the light headed bearded darnel weeds stand with their heads held high and there is no mistaking them for wheat. Jesus explains this parable in the following verses of Matthew 13.

    36Then after dismissing the crowds he went into the house. And his disciples came to him and said: “Explain to us the illustration of the weeds in the field.â€37In response he said: “The sower of the fine seed is the Son of man (Jesus);38the field is the world; as for the fine seed, these are the sons of the kingdom; but the weeds are the sons of the wicked one,39and the enemy that sowed them is the Devil. The harvest is a conclusion of a system of things, and the reapers are angels.40Therefore, just as the weeds are collected and burned with fire, so it will be in the conclusion of the system of things.41The Son of man will send forth his angels, and they will collect out from his kingdom all things that cause stumbling and persons who are doing lawlessness,42and they will pitch them into the fiery furnace (the weeds and the chaff) . There is where [their] weeping and the gnashing of [their] teeth will be.43At that time the righteous ones will shine as brightly as the sun in the kingdom of their Father. Let him that has ears listen.

    At no time does Jesus ever even intimate that (other than Judas) that any of the wheat would transform themselves in any manner into weeds. But Judas was never fine soil and he never was a son of the Kingdom, he was always a weed and a son of the wicked one. Read John 6:70 again if you need proof. Think about it JD, Jesus used agricultural illustrations so the people at least had an opportunity to understand him if they were really listening. " For from [the] beginning Jesus knew who were the ones not believing and who was the one that would betray him". John 6:64 70Jesus answered them: “I chose ​YOU​ twelve, did I not? Yet one of ​YOU​ is a slanderer.†John 6:70 Remember, slanderer in verse 70 comes from diablos which means devil. So Jesus recognized Judas as the son of his Father from the beginning.

    Unfortunatly, not many of them were. Wheat never turns into a weed, and weeds never turn into wheat, it’s that simple. And you are right, it’s only my opinion, but I think it is a good one. Do I think that you will lose your salvation because you do not think like I do? Absolutely not. Read that illustration over again and meditate on Jesus explanation and see if you can really see where he says that wheat will become weeds and weeds will become wheat. I don’t see it. It’s never personal with me. I am sorry that you took it that way, but again, I can see how that was possible by the words that I wrote. Sorry again. Your friend and brother.

    frank
     
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    Eden

    Eden Guest

    A couple of things to consider when studying this illustration.

    Jesus explained that the "field" is "the world". That's fairly easy to understand, but then, you have to ask yourself:

    If the "son of man" [Jesus] is the sower of the seed, has Jesus sowed the seed in the entire field - the entire world - himself alone? In other words, for how long has the "sowing of the seed" went on? The illustration mentions the "men", his helpers or servants. Surely these also took part in "sowing the seed". Who were they? Surely they included the apostles. But have the apostles sowed the seed in the entire field, the world? No. Columbus reached America in 1492; Cabral reached Brazil in 1500; the portuguese navigators reached Japan in 1541; James Cook discovered Australia in 1770. Before these dates, the "seed" of Christianity had not been sowed in these parts of the field, the world.

    This is important because the growth of the sprouts of fine "wheat" and "weeds" cannot logically occur before the entire field has been sowed. The sower of fine seed works during the day; The devil works by night. Interestingly, Paul speaks of a figurative "day of salvation" in 2 Corinthians 6:1, 2. He wrote: "We then, asworkers together with him, beseech you also that you receive not the grace of God in vain. For he says, "I have heard you in a time accepted, and in the day of salvation have I helped you": behold, now is the accepted time; behold, now is the day of salvation."

    Paul identified himself and his fellow Christians in the first century as "workers together with" Christ. Since the earthly ministry of Christ, mankind has lived in the "day of salvation" in the sense that the work of preaching the "good news of the kingdom" was progressing across the "field", the world. Until when the "day of salvation" would last? Is it over yet? Is the "sowing of the seed" in the "field of the world" over yet? Why is this answer crucial?

    Because it is only AFTER the sowing of the seed is completed that the night comes when the "men" sleep and the devil sows his weeds over the fine wheat. Now, the WTS teaches that these "men" were the apostles, and the "night" is figuratively their death, when they're no longer present to defend the congregation from apostasy. But this isn't accurate. Apostasy had already infiltrated in the christian congregation when Paul and John wrote their letters and the messages of Christ to the seven congregations in Revelation also is clear about that. If the "weeds" were to mean apostasy, then the "night" when the devil sows his own seed certainly cannot mean the death of the apostles nor the "dark ages" where supposedly christendom overthrew the true christianity. And this also raises the question if the "weeds" have anything to do with the branching out of different christian beliefs or is it something else.

    Something else to consider. Who are "the men" in the illustration, the servants of the "sower of the seed" ? Because they are the ones who "sleep" but simultaneously they are the same ones that notice the growth of the sprouts of wheat and weed and go to the Master and ask him if they should "pull the weeds out". Jesus said no, let them both grow together until the time of the harvest. Then, he said, "in the time of harvest I will say to the reapers, Gather you together first the tares, and bind them in bundles to burn them: but gather the wheat into my barn." As Jesus explained in v.39, the harvest is the completion of the age ["end of the world"] and the reapers or harvesters are the angels.

    Notice that Jesus would not allow his human workers to perform the harvest, not even to unroot the weeds. The angels will do that job. This is apparently at odds with Luke 10:2, when Jesus said "
    The harvest is plentiful, but the workers are few. Ask the Lord of the harvest, therefore, to send out workers into his harvest field." Was Jesus implying that his disciples should ask the Lord to send more ANGELS for the harvest? That doesn't seem to be spirit of Jesus' words, since he had just appointed 70 other disciples for the preaching work. In John 4:36, Jesus said "The one who harvests is already receiving his wages and gathering a crop for eternal life, so that the one who sows and the one who harvests may rejoice together." Therefore, there was a harvest in progress in the days of Jesus.

    Apparently we are talking about two different harvests:

    One, that took place while Jesus was alive on earth (Luke 10:2 and John 4:36), where he and his disciples were the harvesters, that resulted in the gathering of the disciples that were the foundation of the christian congregation; This harvest was under direct supervision of Christ and that's why humans were allowed to work as harvesters together with the Master, who could read the hearts and tell exactly who was fine "wheat" and who wasn't;

    and another, future one, to take place at the "end of the world", that of Matthew 13:39, where the harvesters are the ANGELS, (this is consistent with Revelation 14:14-20, where the harvesters are only angelical and with Matthew 13:49, 50 where the angels separate the fine fish from the bad fish) because Jesus knows that his followers on earth cannot be competent enough to discern the hearts of people and to decide who is "wheat" and who is "weed", risking to unroot wheat and weed together.

    Something else to consider, as pointed out by Frank: The wheat doesn't change into weed nor the weed changes into wheat. This doesn't happen in real life, does it? So the illustration doesn't warrant the interpretation that wheat can "go bad" or that "weed" can "regenerate" into wheat. What is the consequence of this? I don't have the time now to dig deeper into it. But just think about it.

    So we must ask: At what time of the prophetic illustration are we living in?

    Are we still living in the time of the sowing of the seed? Are we living in the "night" where the devil sows his own seed? Are we living in the days where the two seeds grow together? Are we living yet in the harvesting days, and therefore in the "great tribulation" that precedes the "end of the world"?

    That's for you to answer.

    Eden
     
    Last edited by a moderator: Feb 6, 2013

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