Look at this quote:

"The tare abounds all over the East, and is a great nuisance to the farmer. It resembles the American "cheat (chess)," but the "head" does not droop like cheat, nor does it branch out like oats. The grain, also, is smaller, and is arranged along the upper part of the stalk, which stands perfectly erect. The "taste" is bitter, and when eaten separately, or even when diffused in ordinary bread, it causes dizziness, and often acts as a violent emetic. Barn-door fowls also become dizzy from eating it. In short, it is a strong soporific poison, and must be carefully winnowed, and picked out of the wheat grain by grain, before grinding, or the flour is not healthy. Even the farmers, who in this country generally "weed" their fields, do not attempt to separate the one from the other. They would not only mistake good grain for them, but very commonly the roots of the two are so intertwined that it is impossible to separate them without plucking up both. Both, therefore, must be left to "grow together" until the time of harvest." - (Thomson) "The Land and the Book," vol. ii. pp. 111, 112

So, even when they're growing up and the difference becomes notorious, the farmer doesn't unroot them until the harvest time because their roots are entangled together. This is why only the angels can perform the harvest.

Eden

 

Hi Eden:

I think that you are absolutely correct in your thinking that this illustration by Jesus is describing two planting "periods" and two harvesting periods. These two periods I think can be aptly titled the two presences of the Christ.

37For just as the days of Noah were, so the presence of the Son of man will be.38For as they were in those days before the flood, eating and drinking, men marrying and women being given in marriage, until the day that Noah entered into the ark;39and they took no note until the flood came and swept them all away, so the presence of the Son of man will be.40Then two men will be in the field: one will be taken along and the other be abandoned;41two women will be grinding at the hand mill: one will be taken along and the other be abandoned.42Keep on the watch, therefore, because ​YOU​ do not know on what day ​YOUR​ Lord is coming. Matthew 24:37-42

This describes both periods very well and is especially accurate in describing the current planting/harvest period. Not only would these two presences be described as accurately as above but the duration is also told to us in Genesis 6 as such...

.3After that Jehovah said: “My spirit shall not act toward man indefinitely in that he is also flesh. Accordingly his days shall amount to a hundred and twenty years.â€￾ Genesis 6:3

One Hundred Twenty years was the planting and harvesting period of the two presences of the Christ. Now Jesus only walked the earth for about 33.5 years including his ministry, so this includes the planting of his disciples as well. The planting and harvesting is followed by the "storehousing" of the harvest.

Perhaps this is why Jesus uses the word Jerusalem twice in his illustration in Matthew 23:37 where he teaches...

37“Jerusalem, Jerusalem, the killer of the prophets and stoner of those sent forth to her,—how often I wanted to gather your children together, the way a hen gathers her chicks together under her wings! But ​YOU​ people did not want it.38Look! YOUR​ house is abandoned to ​YOU.39For I say to ​YOU, YOU​ will by no means see me from henceforth until ​YOU​ say, ‘Blessed is he that comes in Jehovah’s name!’â€￾

Why repeat Jerusalem twice? I think it's because in each 120 year periods there are two abandonments of houses. In the first century presence it was that Judaism was abandoned in favor of the first Christian Congregation where those that abandoned that house went into another house (Christianity) then near the end of that 120 years the First Christian House was abandoned when they became apostate, filled with leadership of wicked saints (wicked seed of Satan) and were harvested into the store "house".

Since this illustration is repeated in Luke 13:34,35 I think the scenario is repeated in this latter 120 year period with the "house" of Christandom being abandoned by the anointed who were called while still in the old "Jerusalem" and were gathered into the Watchtower, but now the Watchtower has become overcome by wicked teachers it itself is about to be abandoned by the remnant which will be gathered by Jesus' angels into his Father's store"house". These two illustrations may seem exact in a cursory reading, but on closer examination they are subtlely different and describe two different presences of the Christ. I describe a presence of the Christ as not only when Jesus is actually present, but also when there are any of his wife, his bride present, as they are his wife, his flesh and they are one flesh. So the presence of him, his bride or any part of the bride defines a presence.

All of these times were scary for those abandoning the well established "house" of God, but it was the Holy Spirit that motivated each and every one of these abandonments. This time period will be no different. So, get ready, the harvest is about to start. keep listening for the call of the Holy Spirit in the voice of our Master Jesus and you will be led to the storehouse of God, no matter what salvation covenant you may find yourself in. These are difficult times, but exciting for sure.

frank

 

Frank,

While perhaps we can agree that there are two harvests where Jesus takes an active role (one past, and one future), I think we disagree about the when and the how.

Let me ask you - and all others too: Do you think we still live in the time of sowing the seed? Or do we live in the "night" ? Or do we live in the time where the wheat and the weeds are growing together?

Please state scripturally why you think the way you do - not resorting to wishful thinking like 'obviously we live in the last days'.

Eden

 

In 33 CE Jesus assured the members of His Body that He would be with them by means of the Helper all the days from then on until the conclusion of the system of things at His coming on the clouds of Heaven in power and glory.

Hence there cannot be two ‘presences’ or any interruption to the continuity of the Body of Christ during the past 2000 years it has been in existence in exile from the nominal Christian organizations here on earth.

The appointment of each and every member of His Body as ‘slave’ or ‘steward’ over His anointed Household of collective ‘domestics’ took place from 33 CE onward, and through the following centuries, at the anointing of each respective member for the building up of His Body, which alone is the congregation.

Jesus likens Himself to a man of noble birth going on a long trip who therefore appoints his slaves over his household affairs before his departure.

If Jesus appointed the ‘slave’ in 1914, as the WT now claims, He must have been physically present until THEN, to now become absent for a long trip; and so one lie leads to another, and on it goes…

 

Hi Eden,

You basically are asking where we are in the stream of time in relation to the illustration of the wheat and weeds, as given by Jesus.

Well, Jesus told us that He would be with us by means of the Helper during His personal absence, which was to last UNTIL the start of the conclusion of the system of things. Mat.28

Further, He told us that the harvest would happen at the conclusion of the system of things. Mat.13

Now we only need to know when the start of the conclusion of the system of things occurs.

This we are clearly told in Mathew 24, where in verse 3 the start of the parousia is also taken to be the start of the conclusion of the system of things; this deduction is implicit in the structure of the question asked: ‘…what will be the sign of your parousia AND of the conclusion…’

So we now have to locate THE SIGN in the reply Jesus gave in the following verses of Mathew 24, because as soon as we see THE SIGN, we also know that then His parousia has started, and that we are from then on in the conclusion of the system of things, which is also when the harvest begins.

And, not surprisingly, we find His parousia starting appropriately with His COMING on the clouds of Heaven, immediately after the end of the great tribulation, when every eye will see THE SIGN of His coming AND SUBSEQUENT presence.

At this point in time the weeds are being bundled for all to see, as the wheat is revealed before those beating themselves in grief, as they get caught away from the earth to join Christ on the clouds of Heaven in power and glory.

So this is early days yet, no reason to be quickly shaken from our reason, because the global apostasy from professing Christ has yet to take place, before there can be any great tribulation happening to His followers.

That is my take anyway, so far.

 

Hi Joshua,

thanks, yes, you are right, what I have written above still needs to be tied in with Daniel and Revelation, and this may not be quite as straight forward as aligning the sequence of end time events foretold by Jesus in the Synoptics.

The term ‘time of the end’ in Daniel could have a general meaning and also, more specifically refer to the time of the disgusting thing gaining ascendency in the world, preparatory to actually standing in ‘a holy place,’

by replacing Christianity and seemingly fulfilling the role of God’s kingdom on earth as the incoming kingdom now proclaimed by the WT, and all the rest of what they would call ‘Christendom,’

not to mention Islam, Bahia and Judaism, who also are in anticipation of the messiah who will save the world and bring about a uniting of mankind under the worship of the one god of this world.

So, although strictly speaking the sign of Christ’s coming and subsequent presence is the one occurring immediately after the end of the great tribulation,

the standing of the disgusting thing in a holy place, just before the start of the great tribulation, could well be called the ‘time of the end’ in a general sense,

at least ‘time of the end’ for publicly acknowledging Christ, the ‘continual offering’[constant feature, NW] of praise, mentioned in Daniel, which will cease as a result of the prophesied apostasy from Christianity [see 2Thess 2] and the disgusting thing becoming the object of worship, which all the world will follow with admiration, as per Revelation 13.

 

Furthermore, if one wanted to be more specific - and the time for that may not be quite right yet, due to the interpretational haze occasioned by this circumstance –

one could discern a difference, in Mathew 24, in the time period during which, as Jesus told His disciples, THEY would be ‘delivered up to tribulation,’

as referring to a time period PRIOR to, and DISTINCT from, the ‘great tribulation,’ which was to befall Jerusalem [euphemism for Christianity], and from which they would be successful in escaping, and in standing before the Son of man. Lu.21

Such a pre - ‘great tribulation’ spate of persecution for the holy ones could well be during the early stages of the global beast, before it actually stands in ‘a holy place,’ and could have a duration of 3 ½ years, to be followed by 3 ½ years of the great tribulation proper, from which they will have fled to the mountains by then,

because, clearly, the great tribulation is not directed against the holy ones, just as the disciples in the first century were not to come under the judgment meted out to Jerusalem, God’s nominal people, in their day.

This, of course, requires an understanding that God actually has TWO people during the Christian era, the Body of Christ, as well as the nominal Church, consisting of all those confessing Christianity and the God of the Bible more generally, including JWs.

Such an understanding explains, for example, how the sheep of Mathew 25 are such as UNKNOWINGLY do good to Christ’s brothers,

clearly, something which JWs couldn’t claim, since they KNOWINGLY do good to the WT slave, who, by the way, hence, also could not be Christ’s brothers, since they are KNOWINGLY being adored by the rank and file.

Therefore, the real holy ones are scattered ‘outside the camp’ of God’s nominal denominations, to be gathered together from one extremity of the earth to the other, at Christ’s sending forth of His angels for this very purpose, when He returns on the clouds of Heaven with power and glory.

That is why all creation has to wait for the revealing of the Sons of God, because even God’s nominal people have no idea just who they are, and are therefore at a distinct disadvantage, by following their leaders as if they were the holy ones, and so as to impress a God who is not very impressed by that sort of self-serving behaviour.

Conversely, Christ’s true brothers, upon being anointed, are expelled from every community of God’s nominal people they happen to be in at that time, for their speaking the truth as revealed to them by the Holy Spirit,

and out of jealousy by the leadership of their congregation, who view them as a threat to their assumed authority, just as also happened in the days of the apostles.

Hence, the Body of Christ is administered SPIRITUALLY, and cannot be gained access to through the mediation of God’s nominal people, although that is precisely what all of them will tell you: you cannot worship God acceptably unless you are in good standing with us – what blasphemy!

 

Interesting; just a quick comment on Daniel 7: 11,12: a beast without rulership sounds pretty tame to me, and there are the ‘rest’ of those beasts, who apparently somehow weren’t incorporated into the last beast having the little horn, who will be given a time and a season of existence.

This seems to me just another way of saying that the “kingdom and the rulership and the grandeur of the kingdoms under all the heavensâ€￾ were stripped of their power and their domain and people were given to the Holy Ones of the Supreme One.

Anyhow, my online time is up now, I will be off for a few days.

 

Matthew 23

I think Diagonal made some exceptional points. I'd love to comment on a few, but for now I don't have the time. But let me just add two more things to consider in the overall picture.

First:

We often focus on Matthew 24, and forget that Matthew 23 is part of the very same discourse.

On Matthew 23:39, Jesus said: "

For I say to YOU, YOU will by no means see me from henceforth until YOU say, ‘Blessed is he that comes in Jehovah’s name!’†​

Now, this was said shortly after Jesus entered Jerusalem mounted upon an ass, in the fashion of the kings of Israel, as a prophetic illustration of his coming as King of God's Kingdom. On that occasion, people cheered Jesus saying

“Save, we pray, the Son of David! Blessed is he that comes in Jehovah’s
name! Save him, we pray, in the heights above!†- Matthew 21:1-9
​

What Jesus said was basically that until he came in the power of his Kingdom and everyone - even his enemies - realize his kingship , he would not be seen again. This is consistent with Matthew 24:27: " For just as the lightning comes out of eastern parts and shines over to western parts, so the presence

of the Son of man will be".
​

Also with Matthew 24:30: " And then the sign of the Son of man will appear in heaven, and then all the tribes of the earth will beat themselves in lamentation, and they will see the Son of man coming
on the clouds of heaven with power and great glory."


​

The WTS has been twisting the scriptures to resolve the contradiction that "they will see" the coming of Jesus refers to only his true disciples discerning his presence [since 1914, that is]. But note that his enemies will see and his coming will be like the very visible lightening.This isn't about spiritual discerning. This is a literal sight. Note that in Matthew 23:39 he was talking to his enemies, the Pharisees, NOT his disciples.

​

Therefore, a prolonged 'invisible parousia' [invisible presence] of Jesus in the power of his Kingdom is inconsistent with the Scriptures. There's no invisible presence of Christ for a long period of time (especially not after 1914). When he comes, he will then be "present", already coming in his kingship, and everyone, including his enemies, will literally see him, and will have to realize that he is King, even if they won't accept him.

-----

Second thought:

How come we don't see the link between Matthew 24:33-35 "

Likewise also YOU, when YOU see all these things, know that he is near at the doors.​

Truly I say to YOU that ​

this generation​

will by no means pass away until all these things occur. ​

Heaven and earth will pass away, but my words will by no means pass away." ​

and other mentions to "generation" made by Jesus?​

​

In Matthew 17:17, 18, Jesus said: “O faithless and twisted generation, how long must I continue with ​

YOU ? How long must I put up with YOU?"

The "generation" were those who were contemporary to Jesus.​

Then, in Matthew 23:33-36:“Serpents, offspring of vipers, how are YOU to flee from the judgment of Ge·hen′na? For this reason, here I am sending forth to YOU prophets and wise men and public instructors. Some of them YOU will kill and impale, and some of them YOU will scourge in YOUR synagogues and persecute from city to city; that there may come upon YOU all the righteous blood spilled on earth, from the blood of righteous Abel to the blood of Zech·a·ri′ah son of Bar·a·chi′ah, whom YOU murdered between the sanctuary and the altar.Truly I say to YOU, All these things will come upon this generation.

Jesus was telling the Pharisees that, following his death, he would send "prophets, wise men and instructors" to Jerusalem, and "you will" [his audience, the Pharisees] kill and impale and scorge in your synagogues and persecute. "This generation" was the generation of the contemporaries of Jesus. NOT ANOTHER GENERATION. This is the same "generation" that Jesus refers to again in THE SAME DISCOURSE on Matthew 24:33-35. It's the generation of the contemporaries of Jesus, that included the wicked Pharisees.

How much longer will we be stumbled by this? It is a stumbling block! Forget about the "generation" as if it were a "sign of times". Actually, Jesus said: “A wicked and adulterous generation keeps on seeking for a sign" (Matthew 12:39) To be obsessed with "the sign of times" is a characteristic of a "wicked and adulterous generation". To me, the GB fits very well the role of a wicked and adulterous generation that persists in seeking a sign. The "generation" has no relevance in determining how close we are to the "end of the system of things", because simply Jesus said that no one knows and no one can know. As simple as that. Why don't we listen to our Lord?

Eden​

 

hi all

I personally think we can learn a lot from Job's account - can we not say that he personally experienced a tribulation? With that in mind we must ask ourselves what was Satan's main objective? Was it to make Job poor? make him suffer? The answer to those questions is "NO".

Today what is Satan's objective? Is it to make us suffer? make us poor like he did to Job? NO, even thou those are the means he makes use of to attain his main objective.

Then what is Satan's main objective? Is it not to make us loose favour with Jehovah? Make us forsake our integrity?

Back to the question JD asked, i personally think that the "great tribulation" is Satan's last effort to make Jehovah's people (primarilly the anoited) to prove unfaithful to Jehovah. We must not let Satan fool us into looking nor focus at the physical - does he not rule this world? 1 John 5:19

He really wants us to focus on the physical rusulting in us loosing focus in what is more important - spiritual side of things.

Jesus told us that we must worship the Father in truth and spirit not by sight and physical things we see with our eyes.

Today Satan uses men to oppress us hoping that we will surrender and do his will.

 

"I think that you are absolutely correct in your thinking that this illustration by Jesus is describing two planting "periods" and two harvesting periods. These two periods I think can be aptly titled the two presences of the Christ."

How many time is Christ going to be present?

 

Joshua,

I hear what you say, but verse 11 clearly places the taking away of the rulerships of the three other beasts at the time when the little horn is killed and its body gets destroyed, as it boasts against the Most High and has its rulership transferred to the Holy Ones of the Supreme One.

Hence the eighth king and his rulership must take place PRIOR to the taking away of the rulership of the three other beasts.
It may sound strange that nation states which are ideologically not in agreement with the NWO should survive Armageddon, minus their ruling power,

but Revelation tells us that ANYBODY not accepting the mark of the beast has a good chance of surviving the destruction of the global beast.

Zechariah 14 tells us that “it must occur [that], as regards everyone who is LEFT REMAINING OUT OF ALL THE NATIONS that are coming against Jerusalemâ€￾ will have survived into the new system.

So we can expect remnants of most nations to survive, even if greatly decimated due to the majority of their people having followed the beast with admiration.

That is the way it appears to me at present.

 

Eden,

good points you raise there about the visibility of Christ’s return, even if it is only momentary as a miraculous display of power and glory to make the beast worshippers realize that they have followed the wrong Christ.

That reminds me of what Jesus said in Luke 17, which the WT often uses to support their invisible presence dogma, but which, if read correctly, actually proves exactly the opposite.

In verse 20 Jesus contrasts the present ‘coming’ of the kingdom with His future coming as ruler of the world.

In 33 CE He did not come with striking observableness, but His second coming like lightning flashing across the sky, as He returns on the clouds of Heaven in power and glory,

so that all the nations will beat themselves in grief over their looming destruction, will indeed be strikingly observable.

So much for an ‘invisible presence,’ as if this faithless generation of beast worshippers will all of a sudden magically acquire ‘eyes of faith’ at Christ’s second coming for His personal, bodily presence,

because that is precisely what the word parousia actually means, personal, bodily presence, as opposed to personal, bodily absence, which has been going on ever since He left the earth in 33 CE.

The ‘overlapping’ generation ‘refinement’ actually makes TWO generations out of the ONE that will live contemporary with the NWO beast; but what would Jesus know anyway?

 

Joshua,

I hold that the 7 kings which remain of the original 10 kings that are attached to the 4th beast, as well as the little horn, which also is attached to the 4th beast will all go down together when the 4th beast is destroyed at armageddon.

This to me then sounds like we can expect an entity that 'will devour all the earth and trample it down and crush it,' and out of which 10 kings will rise up, to be followed by another one who will continually harrass the holy ones after defeating three of the original 10 kings.


Once he is finished with the holy ones, he, along with the 7 remaining kings as well as the whole 4th beast will all together be destroyed by the coming of Jesus on the clouds of Heaven, or so it seems to me; what say ye?