Joshua,

I can sort of follow your reasoning in trying to fit prophecy into recent history up to the present, but I just cannot reconcile some of the language used by both Daniel and in Revelation with what I have seen during the last century.

For example, who has ‘trampled the whole world underfoot’ in recent memory, say, ‘THIS generation,’ as Jesus put it? Dan.7
Just where is that beast to whom Satan has given authority over “EVERY nation,†as per Revelation 13?

Before I can look for a ‘sword stroke,’ I first need to see that beast thus described, because so far no country fits the bill, not Britain, not America, not Russia and not even the UN so far.

I say this not to pick an argument with you or anyone, just to say that I looked at everything so far, and get the impression that Scripture has greatly exaggerated if what it says was meant to portray what happened in recent history, that’s all.

You say, for example, that “the fifth bowl is poured onto the throne of the wild beast constituting its collapse.â€

All I read is that “they began to gnaw their tongues for [their] pain" at that time, not necessarily implying their collapse.

Again, this is not to criticize you, just to illustrate the cautious approach that has somehow devolved upon me through years of trying to make bits of the puzzle fit in spite of the at times overwhelming urge to use a mallet to do so.

If Scripture doesn’t fit naturally, I usually assume that the time for it just hasn’t come yet.

This is no cop out for wanting to go to sleep spiritually, but I expect things to unfold clearly, because even in the near future there will still be premature fulfillments of prophecy designed to mislead [again] if possible even the chosen ones.

Remember, 1914 tricked a lot of supposedly sincere and enlightened people, often against their better judgment, only to lure them into the snare of intellectual dishonesty, which is cause enough to keep one out of the kingdom for good.

 

Just a couple of points to consider

Very interesting discussion. Sorry to not be able to offer an in-depth responses to it, as I've been having my attention on something else. But I thought I should make a single point out of something that was written:

Joshuastone7 wrote:

"I am contemplating your understanding that all prophecy is still future though, don't get me wrong."

I believe that right here lies the core of the problem. Right here.

A little history:

Every religious group that got influenced by the teachings of William Miller, who became convinced that the date of the Second Coming of Christ was revealed in the Bible prophecies of Daniel and Revelation, and started out the whole "year-per-day" interpretative method, can be defined as "millerite". As early as 1822 he got convinced that the Scriptures singled out the year of 1843 as the date for the Second Advent. Eventually another well known pastor of Boston, Joshua Vaughan Himes became persuaded by his conclusions and began to publish a monthly magazine in 1840. The magazine was called Signs of the Times and to this day it continues to be edited by the Seventh-Day Adventistic Church. The millerite movement gained national attention in the US and by 1841 it reached the UK. The "date" for the Second Advent was adjusted to March 21, 1844, then April 18, 1844, then again October 22, 1844. These dates came to pass without any incident and this has resulted in "The Great Disappointment".

The Millerite movement split into three different factions:

• The first, the "spiritualized group" lead by Joseph Turner, who believed that Christ had come to the bride's chamber invisibly in October 22, 1844 and therefore, the door to access the kingdom had been shut and the work of salvation had ended.
• A second group disagreed that the door of salvation had been shut and drew most of the Millerite leaders, including Miller himself. On the Albany Conference of April, 1945, they manage to agree on a common statement of belief that eventually resulted in the foundation of the Advent Christian Church.
• A third group, lead by Hiram Edson, claimed that October 22, 1844 was the date of a heavenly event, the cleansing of the heavenly sanctuary. This formed the basis for the doctrine of Investigative Judgement, and this third group evolved into the Seventh-Day Adventist Church.

Nelson H. Barbour was introduced to Millerism in 1842. After The Great Disappointment of 1844, Barbour suffered a faith crisis. But later he became convinced that 1873 would mark the return of Christ. His writings raised interest, mostly within the evangelical adventist groups, and some of his works concerning 1973 were published in the adventist magazine World's Crisis. When 1873 came and went, Barbour adopted the view of a two-stage presence, the first one being invisible. Barbour began to publish his studies in a monthly magazine, The Herald of The Morning, whose first issue came out in January 1874. It was through this magazine that Charles Taze Russell came to contact Barbour. They associated in co-editing the Herald until 1879, when they began to diverge over the teachings of Ransom and Atonement. Russel quit the Herald and began publishing another magazine, Zion's Watchtower. In the meantime, Barbour abandoned the idea of an invisible return of Christ, and set two more dates for the Second Advent, 1896 and 1907. Barbour eventually abandoned Adventism, although he continued to publish the Herald until 1903. He died in 1905.

George Storrs also was introduced to Millerism just before 1843 and started the publication of his magazine The Bible Examiner in 1843, and edited it until 1879. He was also very influential on C.T.Russell.

Now, C.T. Russel took on the notion of an invisible Second Coming of Christ, thus making him a "millerite" by definition. He took from Barbour the belief that the Rapture would take place in 1878. When that didn't happen, Russell began to drift from Barbour. Russell taught that the "last days" had begun in 1799 and would end in 1914 and Armageddon would then take place. Armageddon then was postponed to 1925 by Rutherford. Then again to 1975 by F. Franz. Then again it would surely happen "before the end of the 20th century" (Watchtower, January 1, 1989 - single issue. Interestingly, the binded volume replaced this by "our times").

Now, what is there in common with all these beliefs that originated with William Miller?

The men who produced these predictions all thought that the "end of times" would come during their lifetime. This is the key. This is the stumbling block. We are short-sighted by the limitation of our own existence. We think we're special, and therefore, the time where we live in is special. We so eagerly want to believe that we will see the fulfillment of the Bible prophecies that we will take any effort, no matter how controverted and absurd, to forcefully interpret the prophecies, squeezing them so that they will fit to events that happened before us or in our time, so that the climax of those prophecies will take place during our lifetime. This is what's wrong with us, children of William Miller.

Didn't Paul say: "We live by faith, and not by sight" ? (2 Corinthians 5:7) Yet, we live as if our faith depends on we experience, see with our own eyes, live through, the fulfillment of the Bible prophecies. We should look at Abel, Enoch, Sarah and Abraham's example. Paul said : "All these people died having faith. They did not receive the things that were promised, yet they saw them in the distant future and welcomed them". (Hebrews 11:13 ISV)

What a fine example. They knew it wasn't for them to see during their lifetime, and yet their faith didn't depend on experiencing it. They weren't "holding their breath" for the fulfillment of the promise. Yet, they welcomed such promises and lived in faith.

Jesus observed that a characteristic of an "evil, adulterous generation" is to "demand a miraculous sign". (Matthew 12:39) Aren't we like such generation? We are so obsessed with the "signs of times" that we equate our salvation with the correct interpretation of the sign of times. Mind you, I do believe that is correct to take interest in the prophecies regarding the Second Coming of Christ, the Kingdom, the Great Tribulation, The Armageddon, the Millennium and beyond. BUT - is our salvation dependent on correctly understanding the timing for such events? Do we need to know that we live in the last days in order to be vigilant and live each day as if it were the last ? Isn't it a fact that "living in the last days" became a crucial requirement for our preaching message to be appealing? Didn't Jesus say: "it is not for you to know the times or dates the Father has set by his own authority" ? (Acts 1:7) Accordingly with this, Paul wrote: "Now concerning how and when all this will happen, dear brothers and sisters, we don't really need to write you. For you know quite well that the day of the Lord's return will come unexpectedly, like a thief in the night (1 Thessalonians 5:1, 2) Yes, there was no need to write about dates and times to the brethren, because it would be futile speculation. The Lord's return would come unexpectedly. Peter also wrote that the "day of the Lord" would come "like a thief", unexpectedly (2 Peter 3:10).

Jesus himself told his disciples: "No one knows about that day or hour, not even the angels in heaven, nor the Son, but only the Father." (Mark 12:32) Also these words are very telling: "Be ready, because the Son of Man will return when you least expect him." (Luke 12:40) The greek expression used here for " least expect" is 'ou dokeite', that means "contrary to opinion; contrary to supposition". Despite the Christians efforts to try to determine the likely date for the return of Christ, these efforts would be doomed to fail as mere speculative work. This would lead to disappointment and loss of faith. That's why Jesus asked rhetorically: "when the Son of Man comes, will he find faith on the earth?" (Luke 18:8) Yes, many Christians would stumble and lose faith over repeated disillusions regarding failed expectations regarding Jesus' Second Coming. We should ask ourselves: Why are we so determined to NOT listen to our Lord? Why do we keep stumbling ourselves?

We should be very very careful, because our obsessive search for "proof" that we live in the "last days", the very same thing that is supposed to keep us spiritually awaken, may be what ultimately causes us to fall asleep spiritually. If the Great Tribulation happens in the near future or in our lifetime, that's just great. If the Armageddon will happen soon or even during our lifetime, that's great. If "millions now living may never die" will actually become a reality and we live to experience it all, then it will be a wonderful thing to experience. But what if this is all still in the future, even in the distant future? Will that make you stumble? To have insight about "the times and the ages" isn't the foundation of our faith nor is a condition to our salvation. Actually, it opens the door for our mental manipulation. It leads us to suspend our lives and live in a trance. We should live before our God, Jehovah as if each day would be the last day of our existence or the last day of this wicked system of things. That's the bottom line, my dear brothers.

Eden

 

I understand, Joshuastone7.

I took your remark as a generic example, I didn't meant to make it a personal remark on you.

My posting is about the tendency that religions that derived from the teachings of William Miller to always take the prophecies regarding the "last days" and apply them to the days where they live, and in the process re-interpret the fulfillments to fit the most current world events. It's a pitfall we walk into over and over again.

Eden

 

Thanks, brothers, for this excellent and candid discussion, very stimulating indeed; just as Jesus foretold: Where two or three are gathered together in my Name, and in sincerity and truth, there I am in their midst to encourage and enlighten.

Yeah, I think that motivation for worshipping the Father is the greatest issue we all face.

The WT is right in talking about ‘rice Christians,’ but how are they/we any different if we happen to be ‘paradise soon’ Christians?

Most ‘born agains’ are motivated by bling and the avoidance of hell, also not very compelling evidence of worshipping in spirit and truth.

Yes, a totalitarian system that would reflect the beast or its horns could well come about through an orchestrated global financial collapse, but it also could come about a dozen OTHER ways, because Scripture does not seem to indicate such things clearly, according to my reading of it.

Since I cannot find any world power in its current form mesh with prophecy, I take an interest in general trends where technological and social developments could lead to the implementation of global tyranny,

or else, what is even more insidious, the awakening of a global consciousness where God becomes obsolete, and mankind enters into a sustained period of ‘freedom from care’ and prosperity which rivals the very kingdom of God in its benevolence and transformation of the hearts of men,

because I believe the WT to be very much mistaken in their claim that mankind is unable to rule itself successfully, and that only God’s kingdom can solve all our problems.

This is nothing but propaganda produced by demons to mislead people into accepting the NWO, so that when it finally unites mankind under its benevolent rule, the masses will readily accept it as coming from God.

Hence, no beast will arise until the conditions are right, and then it matters little just which nation or nations it springs from, seeing that international finance is running the world now, and they can use ANY nation they wish to become the beast, simply by pouring their resources into its economy and thus making it great and successful.

Having said that, I still am very interested in the outworking of this scheme of word rulership by the what Jesus referred to as the, synagogue of Satan.

Sorry, but I am out of time now – I hope to get more regular access to the internet soon.

 

Hi Joshua,

for what it is worth, my understanding that the WT is wrong about 1914, an invisible presence, the faithful and discreet slave etc. actually predates the advent of the internet,

and I find a lot of the specifics and scenarios that Watchman so confidently declares as gospel to be out of harmony, or at least going beyond, Scripture.

I view JWs to be just another part of what they so disdainfully, arrogantly and ironically call Christendom - being the whole realm of Christian profession and practice -

much like the Pharisees thought themselves above, and separate from, the common believers of their time and place.

The reason I hold this view is that the WT is just as right in dismissing ‘the Churches’ as being unacceptable to God because of their false teachings on the trinity etc.

as ‘the Churches’ are on excluding JWs from being a Christian denomination because of their lies about Christ’s second coming having already occurred in 1914 etc.

So the ‘Churches’ are teaching the wrong lies about God, while the WT lies are sanctified, because, as they taught their elders at a recent training school meeting, the ‘slave’ is ALWAYS right, even if it is wrong.

‘My country, right or wrong’ – ‘my religion, right or wrong.’

‘God is not a respecter of persons,’ except when it comes to His darlings the Witnesses!

Paul once asked: ‘Is He the God of the Jews only? Is He not also of people of the nations?’

Hence I ask: Is He the God of the WT only? Is He not also of non-Witnesses and ‘worldly people?’

So as I said before, the WT and all other religious organization are constituting the nominal Church, God’s nominal people or house, also referred to as Jerusalem in prophecy,

whereas the Body of Christ is the ‘invisible,’ real congregation of Christ existing in exile from any and all organized religion, including the WT.

That explains the seeming paradox of how ‘Jerusalem,’ as representing Christianity is to be abandoned by the holy ones before the great tribulation, during which it is decimated for its transgression against the God of truth,

but how after Armageddon it will be rebuild as the tent of God, restoring mankind to perfection here on earth.

I think you will readily agree with me that Satan misled the witnesses early last century with a convincing, yet fake, fulfilment of prophecy.

My question to you would be: Was that the LAST time that he did so, or could there be more fake fulfilments to come, so as to mislead if possible even the chosen ones?

I guess that when the REAL Jesus arrives, He will have a hard time convincing me of His authenticity – and that is how it also should be with all of us.

 

Dear Diagonal,

You said : "...much like the Pharisees thought themselves above, and separate from, the common believers of their time and place."

I like very much what you wrote.

At first, I think that the JWs, despite their mistakes and strongly imperfect traits so conspicuous among them, do have something special that make them stand out as God's people, even though I don't discard the idea that genuine Christians may be scattered all around the world without "belonging" to the JWs. Anyway, that's not the point of my post and I don't mind that you think otherwise but I wanted to say it so you have glimpses of my opinion.

Although I'm not drawing hasty conclusions or making any formal connection between the Pharisees and the JWs, I tend to think the same as you. I like patterns, you know... and at times, I find myself thinking playfully that many of the main features found in the people in Jesus' times can be spotted in the people nowadays.

One of the characteristics of the Pharisees was that they were so strict in their observance of the Law that they had applied to themselves the rituals reserved officially to the priests because they were obsessed with purity. Said otherwise, they wanted to be so much pure that they applied in their own lives the commandments that the priests alone had to observe during their service at the temple. Thus, a strong elitist frame of mind was nurtured and a great emphasis put on works and on details not necessarily required by the Law for the general public alone but for the Priests at the temple and by the traditions too. In that, the JWs are very much alike.

One of the characteristics of the JWs too is that they stick to the model set by Jesus and by Paul. However, experience teaches that not all Christians are able to follow Jesus' and Paul's example and even though the both of them tend to set a spiritual ideal, even Paul admits that he was working much more than the other apostles, which also means that we should be careful in setting spiritual objectives to others or to ourselves in our quest for God's approval.

"But by God’s undeserved kindness I am what I am. And his undeserved kindness that was toward me did not prove to be in vain, but I labored in excess of them all, yet not I but the undeserved kindness of God that is with me." - 1 Cor15:10

In that, the JWs set as an example to follow someone who was truly exceptional, even among the apostles, and someone who had received an amount of Holy Spirit that by far exceeded what the rest of the Christians of his time and of nowadays have received, which may make his example in the preaching work, and in teaching and leading aspects very hard to follow. Paul is the exception, not the norm... The other apostles had God's approval without working so hard as Paul which means that the unbridled race for works and the excessive praise of works at the expense of those who do less may not be in return a great spiritual ideal.

I have tons of work to do lately and I don't have the time to write more. I'm sorry. Please, I wanna let you know that I particularly enjoy your posts. I really do !

 

Joshua,

thank you for elaborating on your views some more, which helps me reflect on mine and the reasons for why I hold them.

While I think it possible that some members of Christ might be surprised when some of what they thought were their brothers turn out to be weeds in the course of time, I would think that to be rather the exception than the rule.

I say this, because both wheat and weeds presently dwell together in the field, which, by the way, is the WORLD, not the same religious organization or association,

and at present - pre-harvest season - it may well be difficult at times to judge people’s sincerity, faith and intellectual honesty, although Jesus also said that we indeed could tell which is which by people’s fruit or actions, as well as their love of truth, once they hear it,

to wit: “We originate with God. He that gains the knowledge of God listens to us; he that does not originate with God does not listen to us. This is how we take note of the inspired expression of truth and the inspired expression of error.†1Jno 4:6

Now John tells us that Antichrist is coming - but the WT dismisses this by claiming that because there ALSO were already numerous people displaying that one’s treasonous traits in his day, that therefore there is no further Antichrist to be expected in our time.

So this foretold Antichrist is the one sitting himself in the temple of God, to be worshiped as God.

The question then is: Does he sit down in the Body of Christ?

If he did, then the members of Christ would not know who their true Head is, which is clearly unthinkable of those truly born of the Spirit and enlightened by the glorified Jesus dwelling in their hearts.

But what if he would assume authority over all religious organisations, especially those calling themselves Christian - including the WT - who after all, are the FACE of Christianity, God’s NOMINAL church or people?

Since 7 billion people on earth have no idea who the members of Christ’s Body really are, as they are only familiar with the FRONT presented by the Christian institutions,

it becomes clear that the man of lawlessness is taking over God’s nominal people, and NOT the Body of Christ.

That is why the assault is really directed against Christianity, even in its corrupted state, because it alone provides a visible and readily identifiable representation of the God of the Bible.

The Body of Christ, the true representatives of Christianity, flee into the wilderness while ‘Jerusalem,’ God’s nominal people, are being trampled by the disgusting man of lawlessness in their midst.

God, by allowing this sacrilege, seems to be either not existing, or else having abdicated His supremacy to the other god, now sitting in the place once occupied by Christianity.

Thus ‘truth is thrown to the earth’ and the ‘established place of His sanctuary’ is trampled to the ground, while global, united devil worship triumphs here on earth for a time, times and a half.

We have to remember that if the Antichrist really were supposed to infiltrate and take over the ‘7000’ holy ones whom no one on earth could identify - until their public revelation and glorification on the clouds of Heaven together with Christ at His future return, that is – no one would even notice or be any the wiser for it.

Also, the chaste virgin bride of Christ tolerating the Antichrist in its midst as authority would cause them to actually sin against the Spirit – clearly an impossible situation.

That is why those who claim to be anointed in the WT cannot be truly enlightened with the Holy Spirit, or else they would know that their Master did not return in 1914 to appoint them over all His belongings,

and, furthermore, would have the intellectual honesty and love of truth to speak out against these lies, instead of loving the glory of men more than even the glory of the only God.

How well do they REALLY know Jehovah, since they imagine to please the God of truth with their loyal support of the lies their idol organization teaches?

What sort of mug do they think Him to be?

I am sorry, but I cannot accept the argument that someone who knows how to pronounce YHWH with the wrongly attributed vowel marks for the word Adonai actually KNOWS God, as you imagine; at least not any better than those who hold Him to be an incomprehensible trinity, that is.

So yes, ironically I agree with you that the man of sin is sitting in the midst of the WT, but not any more so than he also sits in the midst of all the rest of the Christian Churches as their god and ruler.

Perhaps all I am really saying is that the WT is NOT the Body of Christ because of the above Scriptural reasons.

But that distinction it is vital to comprehend in order to escape the coming deception; otherwise Satan would not have invested so much effort in creating these many and seemingly opposing religious organizations, including the WT, only to finally unite them all under his authority.

I don’t think we need any ‘new’ revelation of truth, because faith in Jesus is what saves: that is all there is, and ever will be, to truth.

But what if God were to become obsolete through technology and the awakening of a global consciousness uniting all humanity - bringing about the ‘kingdom of God,’ as it were in spite of the vengeful God of the Bible?

Could this be the ‘new’ truth that mankind is waiting for?

We have to remember that only the true holy ones will not be misled by the hour of test which is to come upon the whole inhabited earth.

I think that the above illustrates enough divergence from what Watchman believes, but more will appear as the context brings these things into relevance.

 

Dear Diagonal,

You said : "That is why those who claim to be anointed in the WT cannot be truly enlightened with the Holy Spirit"

Is it that the anointed aren't truly enlightened with the Holy Spirit or that many outsiders may be mistaken in their opinion of who/what are the anointed ?

Unless you too think that anointed persons should be supermen, learned in everything and that they should be able to multiply loaves of bread, walk on water and produce signs ?

The Christians in the first century, who correspond the most to what the JWs call "the anointed" nowadays, were, for most of them, not like that and the apostles, Paul especially, wrote reams about their lack of faith, them being blind or fleshly. Objectively, they don't seem to have been very bright and steady on spiritual grounds... Even if the final downpour of Holy Spirit hasn't taken place yet, why should the anointed nowadays be expected to be any better, stronger, taller and nicer than their anointed brothers of old...? If Jerusalem must be punished and desolated because of the sins and wrongdoings of those who compose God's temple, excepted for a handful of them, why should we expect them now to be spiritually rocket scientists...?

If the Christians of old, those on whom the modern "concept" of anointed individuals is based, were manifestly lacking and fleshly, should we not conclude that those who are disappointed by anointed ones nowadays have in fact a misconception of what said concept really infers and consists in ?

There is definitively an impressive, rampant and prevalent misconception of what "to be anointed" means... and the WT is in part responsible of that problem because of its teaching related to the FDS and his supposed inerrancy.

A demain !

 

If I'm "reacting" here and now, that's not because I disagree with you. On the contrary, you are right, many anointed aren't enlightened the way many JWs and others may think that they are. Some of them are truly enlightened but that's the exception, not the norm. Many aren't enlightened because they don't make their talent grow or their "gift" isn't related to knowledge, interpretation of prophecy and spiritual discernment. As you will have understood, my post is about the wrong expectations and the feeling of disappointment that follows as a result of them and isn't destined to contradict you.

 

Hi Utuna,

yeah, I think there lurks a Pharisee in each one of us, ready to take us over by hi-jacking and replacing God’s righteousness in us - through our faith in Jesus - with our own righteousness through our own efforts and ‘good works.’

Hence, Paul DECIDED for himself not to acknowledge ANYTHING among his fellow brothers EXCEPT Jesus Christ, and Him impaled.

A friendship that doesn’t last unless contact is maintained at least five times a week is not really what one would call a friendship.

If a JW doesn’t attend meetings for a while, he is considered to have left Jehovah.

How could that be considered worship in spirit and truth?

Sounds more like worship in kingdom hall, and walking by sight instead of faith, to me.

Anything without which we believe that we cannot be saved, other than Christ, is a dungy idol in His sight, and betrays a lack of faith and knowledge of the jealous God.

I think Paul stands out because of his faith and uncompromising honesty, which brought about God’s blessing in his life in such profusion.

He didn’t mind offending Peter when he saw the very essence of Christianity endangered by that one’s hypocrisy of making it appear that the keeping of conventional religious observances was essential for salvation.

Who, today, has that kind of appreciation for the sanctity of Christ’s sacrifice?

It is the comfort of the ‘mutual admiration society’ that attracts a lot of people to religious services, just as it was with their forefathers: ‘…all the things they do, they do to be seen by man.’

If people lose their faith in God because their religious organization turns out to be corrupt and hypocritical, they never really had true faith in God in the first place, and at best worshiped Him for the wrong reasons.

Better to ‘stumble’ them now with the honest truth, than when the hour of test has arrived, and they cannot repent anymore and get healing for themselves.

I always read and enjoy your well-reasoned comments; I hope we are not starting a new ‘mutual admiration society’ here, lol



OH, I am just about to post this and see you have also just posted something, so now here is a quick response:

Ok, interesting what you say, yes, I think that to be anointed is more than just being a follower of Christ in the ordinary sense.

I have heard that those anointed in the WT often say that they do not know anything more about Scripture or the Father Himself than those of the ‘great crowd,’ and I believe that, because it shows in their often unenlightened views and actions.

To be truly anointed means to be enlightened by the Holy Spirit, which represents the glorified Christ as dwelling in their hearts through the faith supernaturally gifted to them by the Father – otherwise, why call it a ‘new creation,’ if it is just a bit of knowledge from the Bible?

As to the bad examples given in the NT about some of the anointed there, I can only say that as time went on, and the true anointed of the early days slowly died off,

others joined them without being anointed and started the whole process of apostasy which ensued and entrenched the system of authority by men, instead of the Holy Spirit.

Yes, Jerusalem was punished by God precisely because it was God’s nominal people - NOT the Body of Christ, which was to flee and escape this divine judgment.

So you are right, the WT is responsible for giving the anointed a bad name, so to speak, but that is precisely because they are NOT anointed, because if they truly were, they would not be teaching and practicing the lies they do.

I better post this now before you ‘disappear,’ lol

 

Another thing: if the WT anointed were for real, would their GB not have a list of all their fellow brothers, and would they not be in constant contact with them for feedback and new insights granted by the Holy Spirit to whomever it chooses to reveal these things to?

According to Paul, the Body is not one member and only has one Head, who is Christ. It does NOT have another body put in charge of it.

The ONLY time the apostles and older men in Jerusalem are mentioned in Acts as making a decision regarding the congregations,

is when they stuffed up, by allowing certain ones from among them to teach the apostasy that faith in Christ needed to be supplemented by the action of circumcision in order to be acceptable to God.

Hence, Paul made them clean up the mess they had created among gentile believers by perverting the good news towards them.

The Holy Spirit certainly did not acknowledge the apostles and older men in Jerusalem as some sort of governing authority over the congregations when it chose common brothers from the Antioch congregation to bless and send out Paul and other Christians as representatives of the faith.

So much for the lie of the WT that the first Christians had a governing body to control their faith and relationship with God through Christ.

To make matters even more bizarre, the GB of so called anointed ones actually appoints non-members of Christ’s Body as overseers in charge over what purports to be their fellow anointed,

something equivalent to appointing the Essenes or Pharisees over the first century anointed congregation of the Body of Christ;
which is like appointing spiritual foreigners and vinedressers over the very priests of Jehovah, as described in Isaiah.

In the first century Body of Christ, we see the Holy Spirit “making a distribution to each one respectively just as it willsâ€￾ as regards the revealing of truth.

Authority thus lay in truth which, being discerned by all members of a congregation indwelled by Christ was at once recognized and subjected to, even if it came out of the mouth of the least esteemed member of the Body.

In the WT and other Churches, authority is derived from an ecclesiastical system, not from discerning Christ speaking through whichever member He uses at any moment to bring about a clarification of truth.

Christ and the Holy Spirit are thus out of the loop in all organized religion, including the WT.

Paul gives us an insight into what meetings were actually like in the first century Body of Christ:

“When you ​come together, one has a psalm, another has a teaching, another has a revelation, another has a tongue, another has an interpretation.â€￾

Does that perhaps describe the scene at a WT meeting with their scripted regurgitation of freeze dried spiritual fare and chewing the cud of repetition for the sake of emphasis?

How then can they call themselves the congregation, which according to Paul is the Body of Christ?

Yes, they are God’s NOMINAL people, along with all other professing Christians, but that is not the Body of Christ according to the NT.

They have no faith in God to provide the spiritual food locally by means of the Holy Spirit through those truly worshiping the Father in spirit and truth.

Hence the regimentation of the Pharisees who made a hedge about the law with their interminable rules, in order that the spiritual peasants might not trample on God’s precious truth.

No faith in God, nor in the sincerity of the worshippers to please God according to their level of understanding in their walk with Him.

 

Dear Diagonal,

Too late... lol I had disappeared before you got your post finished... t'was around 3h00am so it was time, as the saying goes, to fall into Morpheus' arms...

I'd like to know if you have already read some of the posts I've written about that subject on Robert's forum, just so that I may be spared the "hassle" to rewrite and re-explain everything written there all over again.

I intend to rephrase them anyway here on this forum and to add other arguments therein in the weeks to come in support of what I was explaining but I don't have the time for it right now.

 

Joshua,

I take it for granted that you view the ‘temple of the God’ in Thessalonians to be the same as the entity Jesus referred to as ‘a holy place’ in Mathew 24:15, which was to be trampled on by the disgusting thing, and that the disgusting thing is actually the Antichrist.

Notice that Jesus calls ‘the temple of the God’ ‘a’ holy place – the ‘a’ being characteristic, NOT particular!

So the temple is just a euphemism for ‘Jerusalem,’ from which the Body of Christ were to flee when they perceived it to be threatened by the disgusting thing about to make it his headquarters, as it were.

Now if the Body of Christ was to flee from the ‘temple of the God’ at that point in time, it could not at the same time also symbolize the Body of Christ, otherwise the anointed disciples would have to flee from themselves – not a very possible thing to do at the best of times, if you acquire my drift.

Clearly, the Body of Christ is NOT ‘the temple of the God’ referred to in Thessalonians.

‘A’ holy place simply means that which is generally perceived to be holy, regardless of whether it strictly is or not, and this entity is Christianity, the belief in the God of the Bible, which will be eclipsed and outlawed by the disgusting thing.

But what is going to happen to the 2 billion plus Christians? Will they all be exterminated?

Not likely, because remember, before the return of Christ there is first going to be a massive, global apostasy from the Christian profession, as Paul foretold, so that most Christians will follow the beast with admiration rather than Christ.

I realize that JWs like to think that they are the centre of the universe, and that when Rutherford was reading his resolutions at the 1927 convention the leaders of the whole world were shaking in their boots - but that is precisely the kind of boundless hubris and spiritual pride to which being led by blind leads those who will not see.

Even the Pharisees believed that Jehovah would consult their opinion on the Day of Judgment due to their superior legal sensibilities!

JWs are doing a good job out-phariseeing even the Pharisees, their spiritual forefathers, and the rest of ‘Christendom’ is not far behind in their conceits either, so watch out.

Now, God’s nominal people are what the Jews were until the advent of the Christian congregation, the Body of Christ.

Once that got eclipsed at about the start of the second century, the Church and her daughters, including the WT, became God’s nominal people, while the Body of Christ consisted of individuals who were expelled from the institutions of God’s nominal people for speaking the truth rather than compromising for the sake of ‘unity’ with those born of the flesh.

By the way, the case of Judas not being seen for what he really was by the rest of the apostles has to do with them not yet being anointed, or enlightened, which is the same thing.

That is why no genuine anointed member of Christ today would be influenced by any of Satan’s imitation Christians, because of the indwelling Spirit of Truth abiding in each child of God, just as promised.

The chosen ones cannot possibly be misled according to Jesus; hence the WT anointed can’t be for real, because they were all misled by the fake parousia of that ransom denier Nelson Homer Barbour – even Russell himself, according to his own confession and against his better judgment.

God is definitely not going to share His glory with the lackeys of the Pennsylvania Corporation at the revelation of Christ, that much is for sure,

nor with any of the other Church systems, but only with those insignificant and unknown individuals who followed the Lamb no matter where He went.

Thanks for you stimulating input.

 

Utuna,

Yes, I read most of your thoughts on this subject and respect your honest approach in dealing with the ambiguities of weighing up the evidence before us with the imperatives of the Word of God.

It is difficult to be unbiased and to have one’s prejudices evenly allocated these days - not the least out of a desire for cognitive resonance and the inherent idealism so characteristic of those pure in heart –

but we have to be neither ‘positive’ nor ‘negative’ in our evaluation of the evidence, only REALISTIC and intellectually honest about all things – especially in regards to ourselves, which is what the Father is really looking for.

He who is not proving honest to his present knowledge, cannot be entrusted with deeper truth.

I look forward to more spiritually rewarding engagement with you - and hopefully others of the old forum as well.

 

Dear Diagonal,

Yes, I admit that there must be moments when we can't hide no more and that we need to let it go out our way. I know how hard that must be, and that's the reason for which I praise the reserve and the dignity that show through the way you project your innermost painful feelings in so delicate ways. Yes, we all must be careful and not let the tricky cognitive resonance, that is fleshly faith, make us not believe in spiritual realities to which we don't have access yet, make us confuse weakness and wickedness, make us confuse agreement with strong interest and lastly not let instinctive reactions such as the "spreading effect" alienate us from that which could be not so far from the truth, after all. We all have to face the reality of the true nature of faith and to subject ourselves to its laws without dismissing for all that some concepts that we hold dear due to our human nature but which don't apply anymore because of the unexpected, transcendent and unfathomable writing of God's Word. Time and again in the past, experience has demonstrated how far God's purpose and thoughts are from that which humans are able to decipher and comprehend and how often humans have failed to grasp the spiritual significance of what doesn't meet the eye or lies way beyond the limitations of their intellectual abilities. The truth has rarely been what the majority agreed on or what realistic interpretations had awkwardly concluded. After all, can miracles and God's ways be restrained and belittled by what humans consider as realistic and intellectually honest ? Are God's power, thoughts and works restricted to what the Bible discloses or to what we understand therein? It is a long road before humans replace at last intellectual analysis, regardless of the imagination, innovation and insight that they might demonstrate, by genuine spiritual understanding. In that, your posts and what shows through them indicate without any doubt, despite the legitimate feelings so beautifully converted into words in your previous post, that you're already walking steadily and truthfully on the narrow path leading to eternal life.

As I don't want to hijack JD's thread related to the GT and as I'll be absent from the db for about 10 days, I'll start a new thread about that subject when I'm back so you and me and others can share and be fully part of the discussion.