Joshua,

I am no grammatician – neither Hebrew nor English – but I have the gut feeling that the construction of the sentence in Daniel 12: 11 implies that the removal of the constant feature and the placing of the disgusting thing are happening simultaneously, and that FROM then on the 1290 days are to be counted.

Otherwise it would say that ‘from the removing of the constant feature UNTIL the placing of the disgusting thing’ there were to be 1290 days.

You can check out what Hebrew scholars have to say about the construction of that sentence and let me know, if you like.

As to ‘Jerusalem’ being code for Christianity, we have to realize that Satan is not merely trying to get rid of JWs or SDA or
Brethren etc. but the WHOLE of Christianity!

Just talk to any of those religions, and they all imagine that Satan is just after THEM – how naïve and yet conceited can they be?

Jesus clearly said that “you will be objects of hatred by all nations because of MY NAME,†not for belonging to this sect, or confessing that Church!

Clearly, the NWO want’s Christianity out of the way even in its present corrupted state, because ‘Christendom’ is still confessing Jesus as Lord, and this confession is the ‘constant feature’ of praise which will be taken away from ‘a’ holy place, the symbolic temple of symbolic Jerusalem, which is Christianity.

Take a look at Jerusalem in, say, 60 CE. The priesthood was corrupt, the leaders were pharisaical, and the whole worship of YHWH was a joke – yet still, it was ‘the holy place’ of the centre of worship for the God of the Bible.

So ‘Christendom,’ including the WT, today occupies the same position in the world – that should be easy to see.

We have to remember that apart from the less than 2 billion professing Christians there are at least 5 billion people of the ‘nations’ so to speak,

people not professing Christ, and who would be analogous to the Egyptians and other pagan nations in the days of Israel of old who were not God’s people – so there is this consistency in the parallels, if you look for them.

Now I agree with your point that there are people, and plenty of them, who are not anointed and yet understand that the ‘invisible presence before His coming’ doctrine is heretical nonsense,

but that exactly proves my point, namely, that if even those not enlightened know this, how MUCH MORE should those claiming a birth by the enlightening Holy Spirit be able to discover and shun this deceptive teaching inspired by demons!

So how can Satan infiltrate the Body of Christ, those’ once for all enlightened,’ as Paul puts it?

Clearly, these people are dreaming and pretending to be what they demonstrably cannot be.

Thanks for your input and for challenging my present assumptions in the light of Scripture - that is how our vision gets clearer through the enlightening Holy Spirit, just as promised.

 

Joshua,

I think that the revealing of the sons of God is at Christ’s coming on the clouds of Heaven to catch them away into His glorious presence before all the nations, as they beat themselves in grief over their impending destruction.

Hence Daniel 12 will have to fit somehow into this primary scenario, which is still a bit hazy to me at present.

Unlike Watchman, I do not view the operation of error to be the 1914 doctrine, but that of the NWO being the incoming kingdom of God, as proclaimed by JWs today.

This operation of error will go to ALL MANKIND, not just a few million sectarians of the WT, because it is the hour of test for all those dwelling on the earth, remember, to see whether they fall for the counterfeit paradise which is now in the process of being build.

As to ‘Christendom,’ we have to keep in mind that it is the product and direct continuation of the first century Christian congregation as started by Christ,

and which apostatized under His direct leadership as its Head; so we cannot single out one particular sect and imagine that it stands for, and replaces, the whole realm of Christian profession in the world today.

Christianity went apostate precisely because Jesus stoped exercising His Headship sometime after the death of the apostles, when He let Himself be misrepresented by the evolving nominal Church,

so that He is directly responsible for the resulting confusion as to who really represents Him here on earth, and just who has the authority to interpret and modify Scripture to suit new and emerging situations faced by those profession Christ as their Lord today.

That is why I view all Christian sects and denominations as God’s nominal people, as distinct from the Body of Christ which Jesus has always jealously guarded and fed in exile during the past 2000 years, just as He also promised:

‘…and look, I am with you all the time until the conclusion of the system of things.’

It is only by confusing the Body of Christ with the nominal Christian organizations, including the WT, that we get into interpretational difficulties, because Scripture will then give us a wrong reading and raise false expectations, which Satan is using to try and mislead us.

So, unfortunately, Watchman seems to be inexplicably blinkered towards a few basic realities in this area and only time will tell what its purpose might be,

whether just to humble him a bit, or groom him as the next Russell to once again jump the gun on the fulfilment of prophecy and being misled in his misleading of others.

His isolationism kind of reminds one of the aloofness of the GB, who also think it beneath themselves to discuss the reasons for holding the views they do – clearly not a stance conducive to spiritual growth for all concerned.

This JW centric view of Scripture seems to have totally taken control also of Doxsey55, who thinks that the JW elders are the beast of Revelation and that the great tribulation has already started.

Ironically though, I think there may well be some truth to that in the future, namely when the WT integrates with the ‘incoming world government’ to become its spiritual henchmen for the new world brotherhood of mankind.

Christ is going to sort out 2 billion people professing faith in Him, NOT just 7million!

Some people are so close, and yet so far away that one cannot help but wonder why.

But all will be revealed in due time.

‘Don’t follow leaders, watch your parking meters,’ as one Hebrew poet once aptly said.

 

Joshua,

I have read Watchman’s take on the revealing of the sons of God PRIOR to Christ’s
one and only ACTUAL return, to somehow shine like Christ during His transfiguration,

and I have no doubt that the incoming NWO kingdom will thus supernaturally glorify
its elite world servers, but that is NOT what Scripture tells us about the real revelation
immediately AFTER the end of the great tribulation on Christianity!

Yes, Satan will exactly imitate the real apotheosis with his lying signs and portents
in order to mislead if possible even the chosen ones – so much so that the whole
world will follow his ‘shining ones’ with admiration.

As to Christendom being the end result of the movement Christ started, and their deviations
from truth taking place under His supervision – and hence, being His responsibility –

even the WT acknowledges that fact – the only irony being that they do not realize
that they are also a part of Christendom, and therefore will share in the SAME
judgment as that meted out to all the other Churches; for YHWH is not a respecter
of persons, as He is not a respecter of Churches.

All the permutations of Christendom happened on Christ’s watch and WITHOUT
His objection so far; that is WHY He is responsible for the whole religious ferment
in the realm of Christian profession.

But, as we know, He has promised, upon His return, to sweep His threshing floor
clean of all this accumulated corruption.

Yes, Jesus has valid reasons for letting those professing to represent Him do all those
evil things; but the buck still stops with Him as far as responsibility is concerned -
that much should be obvious to anyone with even a shred of intellectual honesty.

If you were in charge of, say, a golf club, and you hired the management out while
going on an overseas trip, all the while checking up on the clubs surveillance
cameras through the internet what was actually going on there while you were away,

and you observed a lot of corrupt practices and actual crimes taking place,
but for some reason decided not to intervene until your return,

who do you think would be responsible for this deliberate negligence of duty?

Could you excuse yourself by saying that it had nothing to do with you,
since you were away while this all happened?

Could Jesus plead ignorance of the horrendous crimes that were perpetrated
in His Name while He watches on from the comforts of Heaven?

So clearly, Christ has a reckoning with ALL of Christendom, including the WT – that,
at least, is what Scripture tells us, which may not fit in with our sectarian preferences,
but hey, that is the truth, if only we care enough about it to correct our thinking.

Yes, scrupulous honesty is a tremendous challenge, and especially so for those
with deep religious commitment.

By the way, to deliberately allow evil for a greater purpose is not an ‘imperfection,’
but the height of Divine wisdom and good purpose, to those having faith in God –
and a great stumbling to all others,

just as it is written: ‘I am laying a stumbling block in Zion that will shatter
and pulverize all unbelievers.’

 

Joshua,

you seem to be in a tremendous rush to be offended by the truth, besides neither
accurately nor honestly reading and responding to what I have actually said.

If I am almighty and allow something bad to happen, then I am RESPONSIBLE
for the consequences.

That does not NECESSARILY mean that I am in sympathy with the evil perpetrated,
JUST that I am legally and morally liable for the ensuing damage done.

There is this difference between God’s ‘permissive will’ and His ‘actual will,’
if I may put it that way, just as it is written:

“For not out of his own heart has He afflicted or does He grieve the sons of men.â€La.3:33

So God does afflict us by allowing evil to be perpetrated against us, and it is up to
our will to accept His excuse that He does not take any personal delight in doing so.

Yes, my God is no coward passing the buck by blaming others for the bad consequences
ensuing from His tolerating the evil perpetrated by some of His children,
like any responsible and honest parent would.

The world is in such a mess because He allows His sons to get away
with murder for the time being.

Just because He can undo all the damage He allows - and indeed has promised to
do so in the future – does not mean that He can circumvent the legal punishment
for this criminal negligence, which is the death penalty according to God’s own law,
namely, ‘An eye for an eye, a life for a life.’

And that is precisely why Jesus had to die for our sins, as well as for the reason we
were constituted sinners in the first place, namely God’s allowing us to be infected
with sin without our consent, and possibly against our will.

This is the very righteousness of God which most people’s pride won’t allow them to
subject themselves to, the stumbling block of the torture stake which will pulverize
those seeking to establish their own righteousness instead!

Perhaps you could take a little time to ponder these issues, because they cut right
to the heart of what the truth is all about.

 

Joshua,

you seem to be in a tremendous rush to be offended by the truth, besides neither
accurately nor honestly reading and responding to what I have actually said.

If I am almighty and allow something bad to happen, then I am RESPONSIBLE
for the consequences.

That does not NECESSARILY mean that I am in sympathy with the evil perpetrated,
JUST that I am legally and morally liable for the ensuing damage done.

There is this difference between God’s ‘permissive will’ and His ‘actual will,’
if I may put it that way, just as it is written:

“For not out of his own heart has He afflicted or does He grieve the sons of men.†La.3:33

So God does afflict us by allowing evil to be perpetrated against us, and it is up to our
will to accept His excuse that He does not take any personal delight in doing so.

Yes, my God is no coward passing the buck by blaming others for the bad
consequences ensuing from His tolerating the evil perpetrated by some of
His children, like any responsible and honest parent would.

The world is in such a mess because He allows His sons to get away with
murder for the time being.

Just because He can undo all the damage He allows - and indeed has promised to
do so in the future – does not mean that He can circumvent the legal punishment
for this criminal negligence, which is the death penalty according to God’s own
law, namely, ‘An eye for an eye, a life for a life.’

And that is precisely why Jesus had to die for our sins, as well as for the reason
we were constituted sinners in the first place, namely God’s allowing us to be
infected with sin without our consent, and possibly against our will.

This is the very righteousness ofGod which most people’s pride won’t allow
them to subject themselves to, the stumbling block of the torture stake which
will pulverize those seeking to establish their own righteousness instead!

Perhaps you could take a littletime to ponder these issues, because they cut
right to the heart of what the truth is all about.

Sorry about the formatting issues.

 

Diagonal,

Why do you refrain from writing out God’s name, rather Jehovah or Yahweh?

Although, I agree with your post #25 and #37, I have some questions as far as your notion that Christendom as a whole are Jehovah’s people and that the body of Christ is not found within any man-made religions org and that we should not have to meet together in kingdoms halls/churches on a regular basis…etc.

First referring to the arrangement of worship for the Jewish system of being confined to 3 times a year, etc…has no basis for what it should or should not be for Christians.

But first ponder:

Acts 12:12 And after he considered it, he went to the house of Mary the mother of John who was surnamed Mark, where quite a few were gathered together and praying.

1 Corinthians 14:33 For God is [a God], not of disorder, but of peace.
As in all the congregations of the holy ones, [SUP]34[/SUP] let the women keep silent in the congregations, for it is not permitted for them to speak, but let them be in subjection, even as the Law says. [SUP]35[/SUP] If, then, they want to learn something, let them question their own husbands at home, for it is disgraceful for a woman to speak in a congregation.

1 Timothy 3:1That statement is faithful. If any man is reaching out for an office of overseer, he is desirous of a fine work. [SUP]2[/SUP] The overseer should therefore be irreprehensible, a husband of one wife, moderate in habits, sound in mind, orderly, hospitable, qualified to teach, [SUP]3[/SUP] not a drunken brawler, not a smiter, but reasonable, not belligerent, not a lover of money, [SUP]4[/SUP] a man presiding over his own household in a fine manner, having children in subjection with all seriousness; [SUP]5[/SUP] if indeed any man does not know how to preside over his own household, how will he take care of God’s congregation… [SUP]12[/SUP] Let ministerial servants be husbands of one wife, presiding in a fine manner over children and their own households. [SUP]13[/SUP] For the men who minister in a fine manner are acquiring for themselves a fine standing and great freeness of speech in the faith in connection with Christ Jesus.

Acts 5:42 And every day in the temple and from house to house they continued without letup teaching and declaring the good news about the Christ, Jesus.

Acts 20:17 However, from Mi·le´tus he sent to Eph´e·sus and called for the older men of the congregation. [SUP]18[/SUP] When they got to him he said to them: “YOU well know how from the first day that I stepped into the [district of] Asia I was with you the whole time, [SUP]19[/SUP] slaving for the Lord with the greatest lowliness of mind and tears and trials that befell me by the plots of the Jews; [SUP]20[/SUP] while I did not hold back from telling YOU any of the things that were profitable nor from teaching YOU publicly and from house to house.

Matthew 28:19 Go therefore and make disciples of people of all the nations, baptizing them in the name of the Father and of the Son and of the holy spirit, [SUP]20[/SUP] teaching them to observe all the things I have commanded YOU. And, look! I am with YOU all the days until the conclusion of the system of things.â€

Hebrews 10:24And let us consider one another to incite to love and fine works, [SUP]25[/SUP] not forsaking the gathering of ourselves together, as some have the custom, but encouraging one another, and all the more so as YOU behold the day drawing near.

Matthew 18:20 For where there are two or three gathered together in my name, there I am in their midst.â€

Matthew 24:45 “Who really is the faithful and discreet slave whom his master appointed over his domestics, to give them their food at the proper time?

 

Joshua,

In the following, can you tell me if it had a B.C.E. fulfillment and or a 1[SUP]st[/SUP] century fulfillment?

Daniel 8:[SUP] 11[/SUP] And all the way to the Prince of the army it put on great airs, and from him the constant [feature] was taken away, and the established place of his sanctuary was thrown down. [SUP]12[/SUP] And an army itself was gradually given over, together with the constant [feature], because of transgression; and it kept throwing truth to the earth, and it acted and had success.[SUP]13[/SUP] And I got to hear a certain holy one speaking, and another holy one proceeded to say to the particular one who was speaking: “How long will the vision be of the constant [feature] and of the transgression causing desolation, to make both [the] holy place and [the] army things to trample on?†[SUP]14[/SUP] So he said to me: “Until two thousand three hundred evenings [and] mornings; and [the] holy place will certainly be declared righteous.â€

Daniel 12:[SUP] 5[/SUP] And I saw, I Daniel, and, look! there were two others standing, one on the bank here of the stream and the other on the bank there of the stream. [SUP]6[/SUP] Then one said to the man clothed with the linen, who was up above the waters of the stream: “How long will it be to the end of the wonderful things?†[SUP]7[/SUP] And I began to hear the man clothed with the linen, who was up above the waters of the stream, as he proceeded to raise his right [hand] and his left [hand] to the heavens and to swear by the One who is alive for time indefinite: “It will be for an appointed time, appointed times and a half. And as soon as there will have been a finishing of the dashing of the power of the holy people to pieces, all these things will come to their finish.â€[SUP]8[/SUP] Now as for me, I heard, but I could not understand; so that I said: “O my lord, what will be the final part of these things?â€[SUP]9[/SUP] And he went on to say: “Go, Daniel, because the words are made secret and sealed up until the time of [the] end. [SUP]10[/SUP] Many will cleanse themselves and whiten themselves and will be refined. And the wicked ones will certainly act wickedly, and no wicked ones at all will understand; but the ones having insight will understand.[SUP]11[/SUP] “And from the time that the constant [feature] has been removed and there has been a placing of the disgusting thing that is causing desolation, there will be one thousand two hundred and ninety days.[SUP]12[/SUP] “Happy is the one who is keeping in expectation and who arrives at the one thousand three hundred and thirty-five days!

Daniel 11:[SUP] 30[/SUP] And there will certainly come against him the ships of Kit´tim, and he will have to become dejected.“And he will actually go back and hurl denunciations against the holy covenant and act effectively; and he will have to go back and will give consideration to those leaving the holy covenant. [SUP]31[/SUP] And there will be arms that will stand up, proceeding from him; and they will actually profane the sanctuary, the fortress, and remove the constant [feature].“And they will certainly put in place the disgusting thing that is causing desolation.[SUP]32[/SUP] “And those who are acting wickedly against [the] covenant, he will lead into apostasy by means of smooth words. But as regards the people who are knowing their God, they will prevail and act effectively. [SUP]33[/SUP] And as regards those having insight among the people, they will impart understanding to the many. And they will certainly be made to stumble by sword and by flame, by captivity and by plundering, for [some] days. [SUP]34[/SUP] But when they are made to stumble they will be helped with a little help; and many will certainly join themselves to them by means of smoothness. [SUP]35[/SUP] And some of those having insight will be made to stumble, in order to do a refining work because of them and to do a cleansing and to do a whitening, until the time of [the] end; because it is yet for the time appointed.

Matthew 24:[SUP]15[/SUP] “Therefore, when YOU catch sight of the disgusting thing that causes desolation, as spoken of through Daniel the prophet, standing in a holy place, (let the reader use discernment,)

 

Hi Joshua:

I would like you to explain to me why you draw the conclusion that Daniel 12:7 means 3.5 times when it does not say that at all. It actually says..."for appointed time, appointed times, and half. It clearly does not say "a half time" or "a half times" etc. . Clearly the messenger who said this line was familiar with the hebrew word for time or times as he used them in the exact same sentence, so I would draw the conclusion that he is not saying three and a half times in Daniel 12:7. It is of no consequence that 1260 days as mentioned in Revelation equals 3.5 times as that is speaking of a completely different subject. Where it actually uses the expression three and a half in Revelation 12:14 it does just that, it says "season and season and half equal season". I know this is being picky but that is how God's word is. He says what he means and isn't confused by Hebrew or Greek grammer. If you agree with my assessment, don't be discouraged, just repent of your mistake and get back in there and try again.

Also, the constant feature mentioned in Daniel. This was a sacrifice that was given every morning and every evening at the temple without missing a morning or an evening, therefore constant. What is the constant feature of the Watchtower that ceased and exactly when did this happen and what was the sin that caused it's removal?

frank

 

“for a season, and seasons and half a season.†Aram., `adh-`id·dan´ we`id·da·nin´ u·phelagh´ `id·dan´. Here we`id·da·nin´ is taken as dual, thus meaning “and two times.†Lexicon Linguae Aramaicae Veteris Testamenti, by E. Vogt, Rome, 1971, p. 124, “ ‘per tempus et (duo) tempora et dimidium tempus’ i. e. per 3[SUP]1[/SUP]/2 annos [‘for a time and (two) times and half a time,’ that is, for 3[SUP]1[/SUP]/2 years].†See BDB, p. 1105; KB, p. 1106; BHS, on Da 7:25 ftn “bâ€; see also 4:16 ftn; 12:7 ftn, “Half.â€

an appointed time, appointed times and a half.†Heb., lemoh·`edh´ moh·`adhim´ wa·che´tsi; Gr., eis kai·ron´ kai kai·rous´ kai he´mi·sy kai·rou´; Vg[SUP]c[/SUP](Lat.), in tem´pus, et tem´po·ra, et di·mi´di·um tem´po·ris. The Jewish scholar Aben Ezra (1089–1164 C.E.) has the dual here (two appointed times). This makes a total of three and a half appointed times as in 7:25, where see ftn, “Half a time.†Compare 4:16 ftn; Re 12:14 ftn.

“for an appointed time and appointed times and half an appointed time.†Gr., kai·ron´ kai kai·rous´ kai he´mi·sy kai·rou´. Compare Da 4:16 ftn; Da 12:7 ftn, “Half.â€

Daniel 12:7 And I began to hear the man clothed with the linen, who was up above the waters of the stream, as he proceeded to raise his right [hand] and his left [hand] to the heavens and to swear by the One who is alive for time indefinite: “It will be for an appointed time, appointed times and a half. And as soon as there will have been a finishing of the dashing of the power of the holy people to pieces, all these things will come to their finish.â€

Daniel 7:[SUP] 25[/SUP] And he will speak even words against the Most High, and he will harass continually the holy ones themselves of the Supreme One. And he will intend to change times and law, and they will be given into his hand for a time, and times and half a time.

Daniel 4:16 Let its heart be changed from that of mankind, and let the heart of a beast be given to it, and let seven times pass over it.

Revelation 12:14 But the two wings of the great eagle were given the woman, that she might fly into the wilderness to her place; there is where she is fed for a time and times and half a time away from the face of the serpent.

 

Hi John:

Thanks for the reply, but I'm not sure if you are agreeing or disagreeing with my comment as both elements are in your comment. Please clarify if you would.

frank

 

Hi Joshua or John:

So, you are saying that the messenger speaking to Daniel clearly messed up when he left out the qualifying word season or time when speaking of half? Since we know that all scripture is inspired of God and beneficial...etc. then it is Jehovah too that is lacking in his grammatical understanding and usage of the Hebrew in this scripture. Is that what you are saying? Could it be that the equation means something other than 3.5 times and you are forcing a square peg into a round whole? Perhaps it means 4.5 times or ((1 time + 2 times)+)*0.5 with the 1/2 being a multiplyer of the first two, then added back in. If not, why would the bible choose to phrase it this way. It could have easily said "season and seasons and dividing of season", but it clearly does not. Explain please! Obviously I am very dense. And if it is just saying 3.5 times how is this sealing up the meaning until the "time" of the end?

frank

 

Hi John:

With the exception of the spurious comment by the "Jewish Scholar" aben ezra, you make my point for me. Daniel 7:25 clearly says..."unto season (singular) and seasons (dual) and distribution or dividing of season..." or clearly 3.5 times.

Daniel 4:16 just says seven seasons or times, don't know how that applies and if it does, it supports my point because it qualifies the time with a specific number, not leaving it out there all by it's little old lonesome like it does in Daniel 12.

What am I missing that is not explained in my comments?

frank

 

Hi Joshua:

In your haste to come back at me with your funny response to my question about the 3.5 times in Daniel 12, you forgot to address the question about the constant feature of Daniel. What is the constant feature of the Watchtower that was removed, why was it removed, and when was it removed. I would think that would be pivotal in your chronological timeline understanding, or am I again missing something very obvious? By the way, in my 37 years of Bible research and study I have made more interpretational errors than I could ever possibly keep count of, but I will say that I do repent each and every time that I make one, and I jump back in, dust myself off and keep on knocking, seeking, and asking. I was not being a smart aleck with you when I made that comment to you Joshua, it is exactly how I feel about it and how I handle my miss cues when they happen. I don't deny them, or try to cover them over. I repent of them and move on. I hope that you can find some wisdom in that course. If not, that's ok too!

frank